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| Thread: HoMM4 or HoMM1.5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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thevinz
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 07:49 PM |
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One thing I notice is that practicaly every veteran and top player thinks H4 sucks big times, while most newbies like the game, maybe they dont know what they miss about H3 because they dont know the game very well, anyway H4 is H1.0000001 alpha 
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted April 13, 2002 07:50 PM |
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1. No creature upgrades.
All creatures start in the upgraded version, but instead of a dumb strategic question like should I upgrade my gogs or not, you now have a question like should I choose a shooter or walker. Which 2-3 level creature combo do I prefer. What magic is my opponant using and which creature matches up best against that type. Alot of new strategic decisions about creatures.
2. No castle defence?!!
Castle defence is very important, choose weather or not you are going to expose yourself to damage by taking the towers, can your troops weaken your opponant enough so that your hero can get back and retake the castle.
3. All heroes the same?
All heroes are diferent starting with the first upgrade and get more unique as you play the game. In 3 your heroes started different and then became clones of one another the longer you played. Everyone wanted the same skills and spells but now your guys get to look very different. In 3 your hero started with a special ability some bad some good, in 4 you can develop your hero to get whatever advanced class you want and then your hero specialty kicks in, so you can choose it and change it with hero development.
4. Heroes can actually fight now.
Hero protection is now a tactical question, where will you place your hero to keep him out of line of sight abilities and shots, using potions of immortality, will concentrating on hero destrustion win the battle or loose it as the hero's troops kill yours. What is more important, killing the vamps or genies, or killing the hero?
5. no chaining of troops.
Chaining troops was one of the worst aspects of Heroes 3, how can you march troops over several days worth of ground and then have them fight? Most other games I have seen have the troops with their own movement points, and heroes is just catching up and fixing this obvious broken aspect of the game. If you need new troops you can get them every day and march them to your hero, and the caravans are great solutions to get troops from the creature generators and other towns without alot of micromanagement.
6. Graphics are a letdown?
You like the graphics or you don't, that's a matter of personal taste, but I think that the maps look alot better with more choices for decorations. Some creature movement graphics are stupid, but others I like alot, but it is a taste issue.
7. How big do you think that the so called multiplayer patch will be?
I hope it allows for fixing some of the obvious problems, memory leak etc.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 08:32 PM |
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as far as upgrading went, I just meant the responsibility of havin to go back. like say I got elves to join, and I had grand elves on my team. if I had a rampart, its a pain to chain them back and forth, and if I didnt have a rampart, it sucks because you want to combine them.
I like the new system better, except, I think people wouldnt even miss upgrades if they had 5 build levels of creatures instead of 4. everyone feels cheated that there is less creatures.
Im still givin h4 the benefit of the doubt until the first patch is out. Difference between me and a lot the people who hate h4 is prolly that I dont compare h4 to h3, because it is a whole new game. (btw Im referrin to gameplay, as far as the memory leak, etc goes, I hate h4 for that lol)
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I will not lose.
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Starknight
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 13, 2002 08:53 PM |
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Thank you for everybody that has replied so far. I see that there seem to be a mixed feeling about the game and to be honest I feel that the people that are critic to the game have more valid points so far. Please keep up sending in your impressions to help me making this very vital decision about wehter or not the game is worth the time or if I should go for something more preferable and diverse instead...something like... hmmm... teletubbies gold edition
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 09:51 PM |
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Heroes 4 might be inferior to HoMM3 (until the patch comes), but to HoMM2? You have to be kidding. Strategical depth in HoMM2 is low, there isn't even wait button in combat.
About visiting towns with your heroes all over again. Why should you do that? Your creatures can move their sorry backs right to your hero.
What HoMM4 is missing is the Multiplayer patch, Random Map generator, better AI and some technical problems should also be fixed. I could also appreciate Zoom option in map editor.
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darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted April 13, 2002 09:58 PM |
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oooooh everyone go to hell.
I don't appreciate that you don't like the game because you have to think of new tactics. I'm sick of hearing that you can't chain your heroes anymore, and thank god for that, do you think it's logical that one can cross an entire map with it's units, and that the heroes get tired but the army can keep on moving on and on??? I'm sick of hearing that the town defences suck? I think they are better this way, and I really hated the fact that you could win a siege with lets say: 1 thunderbird against 300 dwarves, because the dwarves aren't fast enough.... tststststs shame on you for being shortminded
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 11:09 PM |
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About town defense "being better this way", you need to spend 15000 gold to build citadel and castle. What do you get for these 15000 gold? A more solid door and towers where you can have your units shot at. Great deal.
And all that just because in former times people like Darkspirit unsuccesfully attacked a fully built castle with 300 dwarves and no spellcasting abilities. Thank you, Darkspirit.
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InfernoGuy
Adventuring Hero
Enjoys eating chicken
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posted April 13, 2002 11:23 PM |
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I cant believe what i'm hearing! Heroes 4 has more strategic depth than anything in the market right now! Its only downside is the afore mentioned lack of personality/character that heroes 2&3 had.
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Its better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed stupid then open it and remove all doubt.
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2002 04:24 AM |
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Linking sucked so bad in H3 because it was unreal? Try you couldn`t do it...  Is casting the spell remove obstacles anymore real to you? Is an artefact imbued with powers such as doubling your summoned elementals any more real to you?
It`s a game ! Not real life... What we are all looking in a game is it`s strategy/tactical & entertaining value.
The only thing that linking brought to those who could master the skill was speed to the game. It allowed players who were up to the challenge to build an advantage for themselves just by being smarter.
I don`t even consider linking as being an issue for the upcomming patch. I don`t mind it at all. The balanced of the game is questionnable. And I think there is little the patch can do about it.
- Frank
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Starknight
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 14, 2002 06:37 AM |
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As I understand most of the people that seem to be happy with the game, are so because they thing that the problems will be fixed in an upcoming patch.
I see that people are putting too much faith in this eventuall patch to correct this games shortcomings. Unfortunately there is very little that a patch can do to improve a game. It can correct some programming errors and flaws but its not going to do any constructional change to the gameplay itself. I think that if we are lucky these changes could be implemented first in an expansion pack which, if the news of 3DO turning its back to HoMM franchise, is true will probably not come
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blastingbubb...
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 14, 2002 06:48 AM |
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I don't think HOMM4 is that awful. There are some aspects of the game that are better than HOMM3. The real problem is the bugs; and now with 3do firing the whole heroes team, chances are we won't see a patch soon if ever. You might as well throw those copies of HOMM4 in the garbage.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2002 03:36 PM |
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"Asylum and Academy are way too strong and Stronghold ironically is way too weak."
Both Thunderbirds and Behemoths are easily among the top creatures of this game, and that's without growth bonuses from Breeding Pens. Cyclops are among the best 3rd level shooters due to their area attack. Stronghold has the best 1st level creatures. Even though they don't have Mage Guild, I feel that they are really strong and easily outlive their name.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2002 10:05 PM |
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Cyclops among the best level 3 creatures?? Even if Vampires and Genies were not level 3 units, at short distances where Cyclops have no penalty, the area attack is more likely a disadvantage.
Birds and Behemoths among the best? Thereīs nothing special about them compared to other level 7s.
Best level 1s? Centaurs are good, but Berserkers commit suicide even against monsters that can be beaten with no losses.
The Breeding Pit is a valid argument, but unless you find several gold mines, how do you build and buy all that?
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2002 10:20 PM |
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Did you know that you don't have to target the unit to hit it with Cyclops? Obviosly not. You can target the hex next to it. And I said AMONG the best creatures. Of course Vampires and Genies are good and even better.
Birds and Behemoths ARE among the best creatures. Like it or not, and that's even without the bonus of the Breeding pens.
Check this:http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=4324
Compared to other level 1 creatures, even the Berserkers are good. And if you fear that you lose them against neutrals, why don't you leave them behind?
The Breeding Pit is expensive. But on larger maps you will likely get money enough to afford it. On smaller maps, you don't necessarily need it.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2002 11:04 PM |
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Cyclops are maybe among the best Stronghold level 3 creatures. Compared with the other towns, they are certainly below the average. Nightmares, Griffins, Efreets, Nagas, Venom Spawn are all much better.
Yes, Iīve read that test of yours. You must be joking if you say that this has any relevance at all about the evaluation of how strong a creature is in the game.
Quote: Compared to other level 1 creatures, even the Berserkers are good.
They are only good in tests like the one you mentioned above.
I think the only outstanding creature of the Stronghold is the Nomad, fast, strong and durable first-striker.
Quote: The Breeding Pit is expensive. But on larger maps you will likely get money enough to afford it.
The question is if whether or not you can afford to buy the +50% grown creatures, unless the map is full of gold mines.
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted April 14, 2002 11:13 PM |
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dear lews,
you spend your energy for nothing... left others to be happy to think that they are right.. left them they know the game.. left them to think that rampart on heroes 3 is worst town ... hehe they will never understand ... when i need to smile and toss around i read library or h4 section to laught people incredible tests 
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quoting my post = bullet in your head
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted April 15, 2002 01:31 AM |
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greetings
this is going to be a long post!
Now you are warned!
I have now made up my mind As well have my cirkel of friends. They have already going back to play other games, the cd is in the box, the box is on the shelf, and its maybe comming out when the multiplayer patch comes, but only maybe. I am a fan so I have given it a little more line! And here is my statement!!
HOMM4 is off less quality than both homm2 and homm3!!
Not only off less quality but a lot less quality !
But what went wrong , because based on all the descriptions off the game I had a lot of the expectations, and so had most of you here??
So what went that horrible wrong?
Its not that the game has bad and boring scenario describtions,
its not that its sold by a compagny their sales a game in a version with a manual and one without , and forget to inform fans off the difference!
Its not that heroes lacks charms and is not induvidual different!
Its not that hero building is forced in one direction because you are always offered the same skills
Its not that potions and artifacts are bad organized and imposible to sort out!
Its not that the music skips.
Its not that the system requirements are doubtfull minimum for a good gaming experience!
Its not that the game comes with to few maps to play!
Its not stupid command implementations like drag and drop! when moving and splitting armys!
its not that multiplayer is first avalible in a patch
its not even that I feeled talked down too , when reading a note in the game about the patch would be awaileble for free. (talking like salespersons, instead excusing less than optimal service).
its not that townscreens now are uninspiring and chaotic(but have this totally unimportant feature off reflecting the terrain background!) They where way more charming in heroes2.
its not that the graphics are confussing. (if the rest where working I would end liking it , now i am just barely getting used to it)
its not that all structures on the map have been made a lot bigger, but by that making maps less!
its not that town building are too simple, ( there where alot more strategy in townbuilding in earlyer versions!)
its not that the log are missing in battle, though certainly a loss
its not that the grid is missing , though certainly just as big a loss!
its not that spellcasting units are severe overpovered!
its not that walkers are nearly useless!
its not that the AI fights bad (we have seen that before)
its not....
its not all the thing mentioned here though they offcourse add a bit to it, and raise some warning signals!
its not all the small things I have forgotten but been irritated over, because all off them would be forgiven if overall the game worked to be charming ,addictive and challenging!
But the game does not work that way!
The AI is just more stupid than ever! Its An insult to have a game where computer AI plays it so bad! Its an insult to the players to release a game on that level, to let players use hours to play through a map to see the computer opponent not have been able to take its first mine!!
But this is not enough to explain why the game doesn't work!(impressive but true)
One big problem is the importance of timing there is gone! In earlyer versions timing was crucal to get creature buildings before end of week! And hero chaining made timing again an important factor!! With both of them gone the satisfaction off optimising gameplay is changed! Now the importance of beeing a day later or not in achiving a goal is not significant! in Homm3 it was cruical and a place where you showed your skill as a player! I am not saying I want herochaning back , just that by touching both that and weekly armyproductions , something have been messed up!
And its the building part of the game! The tactical, strategical and cunning part off is missing a lot!
Another and more grave problem is idea off heroes in battlefield!! This controversial as a lot off people likes it. But its an idea not working and not necaserry!
And its the Idea and not the implementation there is not working. First heroes is either to weak or to strong! This is plainly following having single stack units in a battle!
They have either to little impact or to much! Because they either dies or survives! Exsample! if 10 devils not can 1 hit a hero, battle might be won with out losses, but maybe 11 can 1 hit kill him, and the battle is unvinable! Effects like that is very unbalanced in the game! Because when a hero dies the course of the battle changes!
Heroes did work perfect in homm2 and homm3 not to weak , not to strong , everyone having them and trouble was if might was stronger than magic, and maps told!
Now the importance of creatures have been strongly devaluated , because of heroes on the battlefield! They simply either gets ahead off the creature stack strength or gets behind!
Think about does heroes in battle adds anything important to the game? All the stratical options off herobuilding we could have had anyway!
Another thing not working is the rock-sisser-paper game effect implanted in the game! Everything has a counter , every creature has its bane! More or less killing it out right! And this is plainly a bad idea! because its not skill there lets you decide if to build one creature or another, there counter what your opponent builds, its luck!
And thesse differenses is so big on creatures that it doesn't matter if you spend a week more building up your first town, because some creature supposed to be off equal strenght just erradicate others! So the skill of building is buying exchanged with the luck off creature choisse!
What went wrong here is that everything is made way to big way to powerfull! All the creature specials should have been powered a lot down! No need for creatures with chaos ward to take 50% damge from chaos creatures, 80% could have done a big differense and still making a supirior builder have a hard time!
Spells suffers from the same stupid idea off everything has to be overpowerfull, but having a just as overpoverfull counter! Dragon strength can win a battle , but steal enchantment can counter wins it! But both spells makes all the skill off building the strongest army a lot less important compared to the randomness to be able to fire 1 gamewining spell off before hero goes down in final battle!
Well I could keep going.. but I will stop here!
though some thoughts about the mess with battlefield could have been in place to! another day!
with regards
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 15, 2002 03:38 AM |
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Quote:
Check this:http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=4324
Lots of work going on there I bet. I remember Teglatphalassar doing this kind of tests for the entire H3 realm. It look interesting in theory but believe me, out of context, 1 on 1 matchups have almost no practical relevance.
Thunderbirds and Behemoths in game situations will fail miserably. Beserker are plain crap. Most useless unit of the game. You can but only lose all of them for nothing.
Guys who were veterans in H3 are discovering H4 at the same time none H3 players do. They don`t pretend to possess the immaculate thruth about everything in H4 but the fact is, H4`s combat situations are no different from H3`s combat situations.
LT you are perfectly right.
- Frank.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2002 03:51 AM |
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Jondifool, I agree with a large part of your post, but I donīt think that the specials and spells are the problem. What I find almost insulting is that taking the two pathetic +250 gold upgrades aside, basically there are only three things to be built: The lvl 2-4 creature dwellings. The mage guilds cost nothing, the castle defenses far too much. Who would spend 15K gold for that snow unless itīs requirement for something else.
I donīt enjoy that kind of game. In H3 there are the 3 fields gold/magic/creatures, that you could build a long way until you came to a very expensive and very useful Capitol/level5guild/level7upgrade.
Thereīs a number of good and bad ideas in H4, but this IMO breaks its neck.
Thank you Frank  .
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted April 15, 2002 04:56 AM |
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Bring on Heroes 5 !
Well I have to agree with one of the posts earlier in this thread. I was also expecting an extention of Heroes3. More spells more creatrues with possibly 3 upgrades. Heroes 4 has alot of super kewl ideas and thoughts. And most of them could have been added to the Heroes 3 idea. no need to totaly scrap everything Heroes 3 is and make a whole new game.
Add the beserkers and the mechanical dragons and the bandits etc. I agree cutting back on chaining was a good idea but maybe they cut it back to far. It is obvious that there are alot that like it and even moe that hate it. I for one have only logged maybe 4 hours total in the game and that was not all at once. I just get sooooo bored with it in single player mode. ANd I will have to agree that sooner or later the perfect most powerfull combonation of skills will be found to make perfect Hero and then that will be all that anyone does. Every game the same hero will be chosen and they will build and take same skills in same order to make the same powerfull hero by end of the game. Just as in HOMM3 everyone takes the same heroes and will basicaly take the same 8 skills if offered them. Earth air offense armour wisdom logistics diplo etc....
And same goes for the maps. I am on Map council and I have already seen some player made maps that are going to follow the same H3 philo. They are putting all the resource mines in a circle around the main town and a mirrored effect. And no large or Exlarge maps so far. So will ultimately end up with same fast attack approach as H3.
Maybe once the multiplayer patch comes out ( if it comes) the game will become more appealing. But as of now, I am prolly gonna stick with Heroes 3 even though in many ways people are stuck in a rut in that game to. Not willing to try different things.
BRING ON Heroes 5!!!!!!
Jinxer
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