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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How strong is Adela ?
Thread: How strong is Adela ? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 11, 2020 11:07 AM

Yeah! When heroes meet heroes. Example of Barbarian can't learn Water to face Ranger hero who can't learn Fire. Such strategy in final, for example.

Ok Adela is powerful hero to cast extra damage, and then Diplomacy with. We find similar opponent Cyra has extra speed, and her Diplomacy. We don't talk about Ryland, when he's a nobility otherwise they strike the other, Ryland has Leadership, because he's a warrior.

Adela is excellent heroine.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 11, 2020 01:01 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 13:07, 11 Jan 2020.

With the new HotA setup Diplomacy was quite cut of.
Of course, if you go to the template and remove the "join only for money", say the all stack will join and give them a "Precise setup" of 4, if you don't have Diplomacy no creature will join but if you have it at Expert and one creature of the same time ALL creatures present on the map will join you for free. Not even unnerfed Necromancy specialists with Cloack ever beat that.

P.S. I said I would be having fun, didn't I?
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 11, 2020 01:04 PM

In Gem campaign I got lots of gold dragons for free and my army was obviously weaker than them. Just saying.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 11, 2020 01:34 PM

I think that they will test yet. When they really don't understand Diplomacy, Elixir, Necromancy, Cloak and Conflux. I think the majority was talked it. And they showed nerfeds.

Does Conflux have the benefit of using Diplomacy? Maybe your eyes were seen too many Conflux troops on map. One new fact, what I talked.

I don't play Diplomacy with, because dumb AI, and it looked like H4. I play Diplomacy with, if special map says so. They must give Diplomacy value to AI.

My Elite (h3map) will explain you. Elite demands you use SoD.
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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted January 11, 2020 06:42 PM
Edited by Orc at 18:51, 11 Jan 2020.

Things to Consider

1-) the bless Specialty bonus gets worse the higher creature level is, making it apparently more effective early game.
2-)Bless spell itself can work for both ranged and melee creatures, as opposed to offense or archery.
3-)Adela can take offense, while crag cannot take water magic.
4-)trivial but very important: adela HAS to cast the spell, otherwise the benefit is 0.
5-)level 7 creatures are much more important in the army composition; also, most of them are melee (except titan which can also no melee penalty).
6-) even if Adela can outclass Crag in terms of specialty, Gundula will surely be better than Adela Becuz Gundula Can cast mass bless too.

Here lets compare bless static bonus factor, as well as Adela Bonus per level.


How this table can be used to compare the 2 bonuses:
take imp/gremlin for example. with Exp. Water, bless makes them do double the average damage (3 instead of 1.5), so bless bonus Factor is 2.00
Now, Adela will give 3% per level to that damage, meaning imps will gain 6% damage per level.
so at lvl 10, imps will do 260% compared to regular imps
at lvl 20 they will do 320%
so they gain 6% per level, but start from 200%, (you can do the calculation in your own way to double check what im saying).

so, it will be very simple to compare. if Adela bonus is > 1.5% (which is crag Hack per level bonus) then Adela > Hack
if bonus due to bless is <1.3 crag will generally be better (if adela  dont has offense)


now the tricky part is; if Adela Bonus < 1.5% then it doesnt mean Crag is better. what it means is that crag will gain more per level, but since bless gives initial bonus factor, at early levels Adela will be better, but at some level, Crag bonus will just be more than that of adela. (calculations will be little more complicated if adela has offense too)

Lets give a few examples for last part cuz it isnt too easy to understand.

Examples:
1-)Angles/AA: at level 1 Adela is better (damage is 102.42%) but at level 2 onwards, Crag will be better (bonus is 103% at lvl 2) (but in reality crag is always better cuz he has offense at lvl 1 20% incrase)
2-)Ogres (adela no offense): at level 20 crag becomes just better;
Crag damage at lvl 35 = 182.5% * avg dmg
Adela damage lvl 35 = avg dmg * 13/9 * (1 + 35*3/4) = avgDmg*13/9*1.2625 = 182.35% * avgDmg which is just below Crag Hack
3-)Devils/AD: (lets assume adela have offense this time): Crag will become better at lvl 23; Lets check:
Crag Damage at level 23 = 130% + 1.5*23% = (164.5%) * average damage
Adela at lvl 23 = 130% + 23 * 3/7 = (139.857%) * Average damage * 41/35=163.83% * average dmg  (due to bless damage becomes 41 instead of 35)
4-) Sea Serpants (adela with offense, becuz crag is better otherwise), we want to work out the level at which Crag is better:
130% + X*1.5% > 56/42.5 * (130% + X*3/7)
X*[1.5 - 3*56/(7*42.5)]>130*(56/42.5 -1)
0.935 X > 0.31 * 130
X>44.1; X =45, now lets check.
Adela Dmg at lvl 45: avg*56/42.5*(130%+45*3/7) =avg*56/42.5*149.2%
= 196.7% * avg Dmg
Crag Damage at 45 = 130% +45*1.5% = 197.5% (Dam, I never thought adela can outlass Crag in something, but lvl 45 is no joke, adela is better for the start of the game)

if Adela didnt have offense, Crag > Adela for devils and most other lvl 7
NOTE: this analysis only compares the Specialty bonus, regardless of primary stats.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted January 12, 2020 08:14 AM

all the math and the only thing that matters is that diplomacy triumphs all that. Diplo beats everything in heroes, thus making hte 3 diplo heroes the best 3 heroes in the game by far.
Adela Cyra and ryland are the best 3 heroes in the game by far. We can argue wich of those 3 is better though.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 12, 2020 10:00 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:36, 12 Jan 2020.

Don't forget other heroes can get Diplomacy too. The "best heroes by far" are Logistics or Scouting heroes with Diplomacy.
If I get Basic Diplomacy on a Kyrre with Scouting at level 8 I will have more creatures after a week then if I immediately start with Ryland. I'm talking from experience here (well, maybe not. I'm talking from experience but from the time before Logistics was nerfed...).

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted January 12, 2020 10:40 AM

Quote:
How strong is Adela ?
at least 2
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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted January 12, 2020 02:53 PM

well, since I play Neutral Stack Size mod, neutrals will never join anyone.

diplomacy is basically reduced to just cheaper surrender, up until the first month at least. the newly spawned neutrals can still join, not the ones initally on the map.

so to me, diplomacy isnt much relevant.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 13, 2020 10:56 PM

Adela's niche was always getting mass tier 1-2-3 with joiners and rushing. Now that diplo was nerfed to crap tier by HOTA, there's no reason to pick her anymore, sadly.

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Antaeus
Antaeus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 26, 2020 06:14 PM

necro bonus artifact that gives liches

batoonike said:
I would much more gladly give the opponent grag hack or tazar than a diplomacy hero on reasonably rich XL map. Grag hack can theoretically be beaten.

But if you're looking to kill your friends in hot seat then just pick necro hero and assemble the necro bonus artifact that gives liches. It beats everything else.


Yes, the artifact that gives liches is the best artifact of all the artifacts in Heroes, if there is enough creatures you can fight against. In no time you will have an unbeatable hero. The opponent will have no chance even if he got Amageddons sword, dimension door, fly, town portal and what ever you can think about.

Personally I have tried having more than 150,000 Power Liches in my army and I didn't even start with that hero or got a Necropolis town. If you get the artifact you should just buy a necromancer and fight and you will get an unbeatable army.

However the over powered artifacts are not fun. And the same with dimension door, fly, town portal etc. they should not have been included in the game. If they were excluded Heroes III would have been more or less PERFECT.

Concerning Adela she is my  number 2 favorite hero in the Heaven town. Only Sir Mulich is better.
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Antaeus
Antaeus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 26, 2020 11:07 PM

OhforfSake said:
Antaeus said:
However the over powered artifacts are not fun. And the same with dimension door, fly, town portal etc. they should not have been included in the game. If they were excluded Heroes III would have been more or less PERFECT.


They can be excluded in the map editor, but otherwise perhaps PR's thread is of interest to you?


Thanks I will check this.
Do you also know how to make the changes (for all maps at once)?

However it may also be dangerous to change things if you want to play against others.

It would much more perfect if Ubisoft came out with a new game more or less like Heroes III, the best game ever, and then made the changes.

None of the newer games have been as good as Heroes 3.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 27, 2020 06:56 AM

@Antaeus
Are you playing HotA or WoG or?
HotA is great, but it's weird they haven't tried to balance TP, DD and CotUK yet.
If you want you can easily set DD to 1 cast per day, that will make it reasonable and AI won't take forever to cast it. I also moved it to Fire school for better balance.

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Antaeus
Antaeus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2020 12:41 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
@Antaeus
Are you playing HotA or WoG or?
HotA is great, but it's weird they haven't tried to balance TP, DD and CotUK yet.
If you want you can easily set DD to 1 cast per day, that will make it reasonable and AI won't take forever to cast it. I also moved it to Fire school for better balance.


None of the mentioned.
I'm playing Heroes III Complete which include the original game, Amageddons Blade and The Shadow of the Death. I have played on and off since 1999.

I haven't played hotA or Wog.
Are they better?

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted August 27, 2020 12:47 PM

Yes, they are.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 27, 2020 01:06 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 13:07, 27 Aug 2020.

I really recommend HotA and HD Mod.
With HotA you get a whole new faction, (soon another one) neutral units, artifacts, terrains, map obejcts, rebalanced skills, negative luck, bug fixes, balance fixes etc.

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Antaeus
Antaeus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2020 01:23 PM

bloodsucker said:
Antaeus said:
However the over powered artifacts are not fun. And the same with dimension door, fly, town portal etc. they should not have been included in the game. If they were excluded Heroes III would have been more or less PERFECT.
I don't get why people have to complicate everything. If you are playing Era/Wog there is an option to ban certain spells, those included. If you are playing HotA you can go to RMG Editor (I recommend making a copy of the template first) and edit the template to exclude the spells you don't want. You can also use the RMG Editor to ban artifacts. If you ban the Amulet of the Undertaker, you lose the opportunity to get a level 1 artifact that gives you 2,5% plus necromancy rate (which is insignificant) but the COTUK can't be assembled. Problem solved. And I can still raise as many liches as I want and TP to a town 200 hex away from where I am, without ever having to bother with your preferences.


Do you think I complicate everything?
How?

I have no idea how to edit the maps and cut the things I don't like. Howvever I saw that you have mentioned it before and saved you instructions and will try it. I then I first try to see if I can copy the template first (can I just copy and save)?


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Antaeus
Antaeus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2020 03:10 PM

bloodsucker said:
Don't worry. If you aren't using the mods nothing will work.
I used to ban spells from the maps by editing them manually (in the SoD Map Editor) but  it takes an eternity cause u need to look for Pandora Boxes and Spellscrolls with the spells. Then you can ban them from appearing in the towns using going to Tools->Map Specifications->Spells. You will also need to ban some artifacts like Angel Wings, Spellbinders Hat and I was suggesting ban parts of the composed artifacts, so they can't be assembled.
It's a ton of work and you will have a much better idea of the map structure then you would if just starting a random map but it works.

Antaeus said:
Do you think I complicate everything?
How?
It's just that one can customize those things himself, using the map editor or (in HotA) the RMG Template Editor, like I do myself. That remark was directed to other people, that continuously ask for others to change the mods to work like they think they should, instead of just doing it themselves.

Antaeus said:
I have no idea how to edit the maps and cut the things I don't like.
In SoD/Complete I would use the map editor. If you have doubts ask and I will answer, I reserve the unpoliteness for peoplo that are used to all this but still want to impose their gameplay on others.

Templates are txt documents. Copy the file to some other place and then edit the original. This avoids u lose a template if something goes wrong (and it can happen, cause not everything can be undone with the Template Editor).



Thanks a lot for that offer.
But what if you would like to play against others, they may not agree with all your changes or have other changes?
It is fun playing against the computer, however it is a lot more fun playing against other people.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 27, 2020 03:30 PM

I thought you were talking about playing against AI. For multiplayer you have only one option, upgrade to HotA and play what others are playing. They won't agree with u using modified templates but there are rules, namely reducing DD to two with Expert Air, etc...
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The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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Antaeus
Antaeus

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2020 04:36 PM

bloodsucker said:
I thought you were talking about playing against AI. For multiplayer you have only one option, upgrade to HotA and play what others are playing. They won't agree with u using modified templates but there are rules, namely reducing DD to two with Expert Air, etc...


As I said I would like that Ubisoft came out with more perfect game (based on Heroes III). I don't understand that they managed to make BOTH 4, 5, 6 and 7 as worse games. Number 5 and 6 were fun, however not as good as 3, and 4 was not good, and 7 was terrible in my eyes.

Heroes is most fun in multiplayer and if Ubisoft came out with a more balanced game then there were no need to all those very different rules in multiplayer. DD is still very much overpowered even if you can only use it one time, and there are a lot of other things which is very overpowered. And if you e.g. choose to exclude dimension door, fly, town portal and some artifacts it is also terrible that you finally managed to buy the mage guild level 5 and then you receive DD or fly, but you are not aloud to use it.

If playing against AI I could just choose not to use all the overpowered stuff. The AI is terrible at using the spells anyway in a stategic way. I mostly play against the AI, but also play against friends and I used to play in the multiplayer with the community and would like to play again. All the overpowered stuff make it a lot easier to win against the AI, but if you play a L or XL map against humans there are also a lot of luck involved. If I e.g. get the Cloak of the Undead King it will be a sure win no matter how good your opponent are (if I get a little time to get the liches).

And thanks for all your information I appreciate that.


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