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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Missing creature specialists
Thread: Missing creature specialists
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 03, 2018 07:36 PM

Missing creature specialists

I had some thoughts about creature specialists, that for some reason are missing from the game. All of them would be might heroes.
I checked what these imaginary heroes would get as bonus in level 30, for their upgraded creatures, besides +1 Speed and here are the results: (For comparison best original creature specialist is Galthran gaining 9 Attack & 9 Defense (18) and worst is Jabarkas gaining 4 Attack & 2 Defense (6) )
Castle:
Pikemen - Hero would start with 3 stacks of Pikemen - 9 Attack & 8 Defense = 17 Bonus (Very strong special second only to Galthran, Pikemen have low speed though.)
Rampart:
Centaurs - Hero would start with 3 stacks of Centaurs - 9 Attack & 5 Defense = 14 Bonus (Very good bonus and the speed makes Centaurs even more dangerous.)
Tower:
Gremlins - Hero would start with 3 stacks of Gremlins - 6 Attack & 6 Defense = 12 Bonus (Good bonus, the biggest advantage would probably be all the Gremlins to start with, making a formidable starting shooter army.)
Dungeon:
Medusas - Hero would start with Troglodytes, Harpies and Beholders - 4 Attack & 4 Defense = 8 Bonus (Very reasonable bonus, this would be a very fair hero imo.)
Conflux:
Pixies - Hero would start with 3 stacks of Pixies - 3 Attack & 3 Defense = 6 Bonus (Very low bonus, as bad as Jabarkas' and it probably would'nt be worth it.)  
Air Elementals - Hero would start with one stack of Pixies and 2 stacks of Air Elementals - 6 Attack & 6 Defense = 12 Bonus (Good bonus and extra speed would make Storm Elementals even faster shooters, they are still vulnerable to Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Armageddon and can't be resurrected though.)

So what do you think of these imaginary heroes? Which of them would be acceptable and which would'nt?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 03, 2018 07:48 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:50, 03 Oct 2018.

Pixies would be worth it with the +1 speed and using "wait" you can attack and then go back next turn before the enemy can act; if upgraded they can't even retaliate.

Funny that Jabarkas "the worst" bonus is like Xeron bonus from campaign Inferno and devils (though to his credit, he gets it at level 1... not that he would probably have devils at lvl1 anyways)

Pikemen and Gremlin hero would probably be the closest to being OP, since +1 speed actually matters more in slow creatures; and as we know, creature specialties are stronger for lvl1 creatures and Gremlins are the only lvl1 shooter.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2018 07:50 PM

As I keep saying each time on threads like this... nothing can beat logistics and armorer specialists, or diplomacy / necromancy.

So, given that nothing can be more lame than the above I think all your imaginary specialists would fit just fine without breaking the game

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 03, 2018 07:55 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:56, 03 Oct 2018.

I said that in my thread but Phoenix insisted some campaign specialists would be OP http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45409

Personally I only think lord haart death knight one would be the only one truly possibly OP of the creature specialties (compared with offense/armorer/logistics), and still it would be on par or lower than Galthran at high level.

(I am not counting Gelu or Dracon as "specialists" since they don't actually give bonuses to any creature, they are more like walking castles to upgrade)
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2018 07:59 PM

Master gremlin is absolutely unbalanced unit in terms of cost efficiency like titans in Tower. Tower heroes already starts with too many gremlins. If you decrease starting amount of Gremlins for every tower hero and increase their costs. Gremlin specialists hero would be acceptable.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 03, 2018 08:00 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 20:02, 03 Oct 2018.

Well I don't really insist on anything and for sure Logistics/Offense/Armorer/Intelligence specialists would be better than any creature specialist. But Galthran is not a bad hero is he?, a Pikemen specialist would be almost as strong (except the Necromancy) and the Gremlin hero would come with tons of Gremlins…

@Otuken Actually I did decrease the amount of starting Gremlins. (and changed other factions starting amounts)

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 03, 2018 08:17 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 20:19, 03 Oct 2018.

Galthran can't really be compared since Necropolis army is almost all skeletons due to it being the only creature created by necromancy. So it's not that Galthran or his specialty on itself is too good - it would still be a bad hero without necromancy existing, if Necropolis had only natural weekly growth of skeletons.

Speaking of missing specialties, how would the game be if we had normal lvl 7 creature specialists? I mean "Increassing their stats every 7 levels" and +1 speed; would they be acceptable, or OP, or perhaps too weak?

Actually Bron is the only mechanically notable "Normal" creature specialist since he's the only hero that starts with level 4 creatures (basilisks).
Considering all other lvl 4 specialists are normally taken as terrible (except Vampires for obvious reasons), could this mechanic be applied to others?
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2018 08:27 PM

Creature specialist heroes boost them very insignificantly. They have to give much more bonus these unit I mean giving also damage and HP bonus would be great. Any creature hero was supposed to be as good as offense/armorer/logistics heroes.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 03, 2018 08:27 PM

Nimostar see this thread for level 7 specialists:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45393

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 03, 2018 08:47 PM

phoenix4ever said:
I don't really insist on anything and for sure Logistics/Offense/Armorer/Intelligence specialists would be better than any creature specialist. But Galthran is not a bad hero is he?

I once I heard Maretti saying he would abandon Crag if Galthran appear in tavern, I guess this is enough about how good he is but as someone already pointed out that is because skeletons are the only level 1 unit that remains important till the end of the game.
I would love to see the Master Gremlins, the Pixies and the Air Elemental specialists on action but my vote still goes to make Theodorus an Archery specialist. That wouldn't be OP and at least Tower would gain another decent hero.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 03, 2018 08:50 PM

As for what else should be boosted, I favor that instead or atk/def bonuses, relevant creatures should get a boost to their special abilities.

For example,

Bron, Basilisk Specialist: Basilisks have +1 speed and +20%  chances of petryfing with their attacks.

Genie Specialists: Genies have +1 speed, + 2 atk and def, and can cast one extra spell every combat.

Dendroid Specialist: Dendroids have +2 atk, +4 def, and +10 hp

Green and Gold Dragon specialist: Green and Gold Dragons have +1 speed and 25% chance of reflecting hostile spells.

Golem Specialist: Golems (Stone, Iron, Gold and Diamond) have +2 def, +5 HP, and +10% to their magic damage reduction.

Etc.

In short, creatures should be reinforced in their strenghts and abilities to further specialize their roles.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2018 09:33 PM
Edited by monere at 21:35, 03 Oct 2018.

Quote:
Personally I only think lord haart


lord haart has got nothing on tamika in WoG. I have played Lord Haart for the first time in my life some 4-5 months ago and I have been UTTERLY disappointed at the sh1tty bonuses the dread knights have gotten at level 60.

Still raging, I then immediately started playing Tamika and at the same level 60 (or around it anyway) Tamika's dread knights were dealing like 3-4x more damage than under LH.

The difference has been so obvious - and disappointing to be honest, considering how cool LH seemed on paper - that I have stopped considering that hero as a good hero


Quote:
how would the game be if we had normal lvl 7 creature specialists? ... would they be acceptable, or OP, or perhaps too weak?


Considering that usually the level 7 creatures are the ones pulling the win I think their heroes would break the game. Just my opinion...

Quote:
I mean giving also damage and HP bonus would be great


They do that in WoG... and it's freaking GREAT! I love playing Tamika and Monere in WoG. Well, the dread knights have always been nasty, but you should see the Magic Elementals under Monere in WoG


Quote:
Bron, Basilisk Specialist: Basilisks have +1 speed and +20%  chances of petryfing with their attacks.


Don't they already have that?? I mean, the basilisks already have 20% chance of petrifying with their attack, no?

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Nimostar
Nimostar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 03, 2018 10:47 PM
Edited by Nimostar at 22:49, 03 Oct 2018.

+20% means they have double. Not like "+1 speed, but they alreasy have 5 speed?" :v

Normally heroes arent level 60 in the unmodded game; final battles in medium maps are like level 20-30...

Of course at level 60 haart bonus wont matter, but try vs tamika at level 10.

Plus as you say tamika has already been changed in wog.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2018 11:24 PM

probably

But... the basilisks DO have 20% chance of petrifying, both basic and upgraded. So, not sure what you're talking about

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Known Hero
posted October 04, 2018 08:26 AM

NimoStar said:
As for what else should be boosted, I favor that instead or atk/def bonuses, relevant creatures should get a boost to their special abilities.

For example,

Bron, Basilisk Specialist: Basilisks have +1 speed and +20%  chances of petryfing with their attacks.

Genie Specialists: Genies have +1 speed, + 2 atk and def, and can cast one extra spell every combat.

Dendroid Specialist: Dendroids have +2 atk, +4 def, and +10 hp

Green and Gold Dragon specialist: Green and Gold Dragons have +1 speed and 25% chance of reflecting hostile spells.

Golem Specialist: Golems (Stone, Iron, Gold and Diamond) have +2 def, +5 HP, and +10% to their magic damage reduction.

Etc.

In short, creatures should be reinforced in their strenghts and abilities to further specialize their roles.


That would be a quite cool idea.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 04, 2018 02:07 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 14:08, 04 Oct 2018.

Quote:
But... the basilisks DO have 20% chance of petrifying, both basic and upgraded. So, not sure what you're talking abou


...that the specialty would get the chances to 40%
Why is that so hard to grasp?

Anyways, its just one of many possible effects that heroes could have when specializing in creatures. For example, a Griffin specialist could make griffins deal 25% more damage when retaliating.
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2018 04:56 PM

Quote:
...that the specialty would get the chances to 40%
Why is that so hard to grasp?


Because english is weird?

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