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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists
Thread: Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 19, 2019 02:25 PM

Poll Question:
Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists

All 3 hero specialties are quite powerful and heroes with these specialties are very often chosen as main heroes. But do you think it is actually fair to choose these heroes as main heroes or would the game be better of without them?
(There are also other good skill specialists like Intelligence and perhaps Sorcery, Resistance and Navigation in certain cases, but they are not quite as good as Logistics, Offense and Armorer imo.)


Responses:
Don't ban any of the specialists!
Ban Logistics specialists!
Ban Offense/Armorer specialists!
Ban Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists!
Reduce specialty bonus from 5% to 3% per level (includes all other skill specialists)
Other (Write a comment)
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted May 19, 2019 02:59 PM

I fail to get the point of such threads discussing modifications I deem completely pointless.

This kind of mentality, aka "ban this feature because it's OP" which is another way to say "ban this feature because I don't play good enough to counter it", simplifying the game the most possible and downgrading its gameplay all the way down to "let's build up our armies and duke it out in a big final battle after x number of days" that you can find in many multiplayer philosophies of play, is what made me avoid multiplayer altogether.


Because I studied a bit of warfare, I can tell that strategy games are way easier than actual real life strategy. I've always been okay with using Berserk or Dimension Door, which I consider an attempt to give an advantage to magic heroes since they can't hit as much as might heroes can, or hit and run tactics which are part of real life warfare and makes the game more realistic and challenging.


To be honest, if I could I would even implement notions that would complicate the game way more. Notions like supply of your army (food, weapons, armours… etc.) and other ideas I keep for myself.


It would make the game a whole new and more interesting experience, perhaps even a completely new game.

Indeed, the library is saturated with pretty much every aspect of the game which has already been discussed, but there still are interesting areas to be explored, like the AI behavior or the odds of things to happen.



PS. So the answer is 'No!', stop thinking about taking out stuff and if you wanna think, then think about how making the game more balanced or interesting.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 19, 2019 03:05 PM

Take it easy mate, I just asked for peoples opinions and I haven't even stated my own anywhere, you are just making assumptions.
But perhaps we could agree it is a bit boring with people always choosing Crag Hack, Tazar, Gunnar, Dessa etc.?
And "my problem" is not that I dont know how to counter them, but that I feel like cheating if I actually have one of them as main hero.

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CountBezuhoff
CountBezuhoff


Famous Hero
Master of the merchant's guild
posted May 19, 2019 03:15 PM

If people enjoy playing said heroes, I don't see a reason to forbid them to do so.

The Count
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"...Mr Hack... I don't feel so good..."

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 19, 2019 03:19 PM

you ban one thing, then other becomes OP

you ban the other, there's something else out there

finally you ban all, game becomes too bland to play.
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AlfWithCake
AlfWithCake


Known Hero
posted May 19, 2019 04:56 PM

Exactly what Doomforge wrote.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 19, 2019 04:58 PM

Is'nt it bland playing with only 5-10% of the heroes pool though?

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heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted May 19, 2019 05:01 PM
Edited by heymlich at 17:01, 19 May 2019.

Mhmm, I agree with doom. I have seen several games that have been balanced until they became boring.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted May 19, 2019 05:27 PM
Edited by Ghost at 17:37, 19 May 2019.

A little difficult. Stronghold doesn't have a Mage Guild 4-5 level. It replaces the Offense. Because it's uncivilized. H4 has much sharper accuracy. I believe that Heroes fans didn't know how to play H4. Ok Armorer, they have cultural defense. I wonder if HoMM would get 5% Pathfinding. A crap math! Extra/power Same culture. Ok chess you can't pick the best piece and play the best. If your opponent picks up a different move. Heroes is the same. Yeah the weak always pick the same and always play the same. Masters always play a different and newer strategy. Ok you can see soon. I wonder, not the mapmaker to create a game name/label. For example, a map requires to do Offense or Eagle Eye. They always create Earth, and beat AI. If favorite, it means the easiest and worst like chess. Not ban We don't ban you use a Earth. And force to play medium name/label.

EDIT: Remember DD is a very powerful against logistics, for example.

EDIT2: I much wrote a chess, because modern chess by AI White Carlsen over 2800 rating vs Black Stockfish over 3400 rating
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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Known Hero
posted May 19, 2019 05:37 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Take it easy mate, I just asked for peoples opinions and I haven't even stated my own anywhere, you are just making assumptions.
But perhaps we could agree it is a bit boring with people always choosing Crag Hack, Tazar, Gunnar, Dessa etc.?
And "my problem" is not that I dont know how to counter them, but that I feel like cheating if I actually have one of them as main hero.


Lol, you state your opionions over and over in numerous threads. Time and again you demand that the HotA crew or whatever entities fix your itches. Yet on the other hand you openly admit that you are only interested in a limited realm of what the H3 gameplay offers (no multiplayer, no campaigns, no challenging WoG maps...)

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 19, 2019 05:57 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:58, 19 May 2019.

I guess it's because Heroes 3 is an old game, people dont like when you mess with things they are used to.
But I honestly dont see the fun in people always picking the same heroes and that has nothing to do with if I play multiplayer, WoG or anything.
If given a choice between Gunnar and Geon, you would have to be really stupid to pick Geon. So therefore people always pick Gunnar because he is the ideal choice.
I honestly dont see what is fun about always picking Gunnar though, how about some variation, different strategies and mixing things up a bit.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 19, 2019 06:19 PM

phoenix4ever said:
But I honestly dont see the fun in people always picking the same heroes ...


Don't you see that if you nerf all specialties to 3% people will do the same choices cause they are still the best, only a little worst against the map but exactly as powerful against other heroes?
And that means nerfing Learning, Eagle Eye, Necromancy, Estates and many others that are already awful specialties.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 19, 2019 06:30 PM

3% per level is less than 5%, so they would not be as OP as before. The problem is it also affects all other skill specialties, which are not OP.
So I guess what I want is
Logistics, Offense and Armorer and probably also Intelligence at 3% per level. (actually not sure the Logistics specialty should exist at all, it seems like the very best specialty.)
And all other skill specialities at 5% per level.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2019 07:01 PM

I voted "other" because...

1) in an evenly matched PvP game logistics beats the crap out of everything.

2) if we are talking about what can be done to balance the heroes then yes, reducing the bonus from 5% to 3% could work, although... I would recommend reducing it to 2%.

I'm speaking exclusively about logistics specialists here, I have nothing against offense / armorer specialists because these are not game ruiners unless you play like me (one final battle at the end of month 12 against the other human player), but since everyone says that my type of gameplay is newbish.... we don't need to concern ourselves with armor / offense specialty breaking the game

Just my opinion

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2019 11:16 PM

Logs rules -> more arts, more pandoras, more creature banks, more utopias, more stats boosters and so on. I agree that offense and armorer specs are strong in single player, but in multiplayer things look differently. Multiplayer games dont last very long. The reason is that ppl play rich maps, where looting multiple utopias and pandoras week 3 is normal. So its easy to get DD or fly week 3 and then rush your opponent and end the game. And week 3 offense and armorer specs are not that scary

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 19, 2019 11:25 PM

Okay perhaps I should have made the setting more clear then.
I was talking about long maps VS AI and here I most definitely would say Logistics, Offense, Armorer and Intelligence are the best specialties, especially Logistics. It already feels like a boon having a hero that starts with Logistics, but to even specialise in it is godlike.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted May 20, 2019 12:56 AM

In my opinion it has nothing to do with cheating. Do you think the AI thinks she is cheating on impossible difficulty when she can quite often determine precisely the location of the grail after visiting one or two obelisk at most out of 20, when you need at least 10 to start figuring where it could be?

As a human being you have your strengths, the AI has its own. It can calculate way faster and more precisely than you ever will how much damage an attack will do, how many troops it will lose in a battle, and the perfect distance to keep in order for your heroes not to catch hers. You can't do all of that, so again I don't see why even against the computer you're feeling like you're cheating by using logistics or offense specialties.

Now of course you can debate each one's way of experiencing the game, but to me, that's not interesting if the answer involves a 'banning for balancing' approach.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 07:52 AM

The AI needs those things. It makes terrible decisions in combat, there are certain spells it can't cast and it will never assemble combo artifacts for example. Not to mention a human player can just reload the game and make better decisions.
If I'm playing a Logistics specialist it feels like cheating, because terrible heroes such as Ballistics, Eagle Eye and First Aid heroes exist.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 20, 2019 09:18 AM

"Balance" vs. AI is meaningless. The amount of freebies the AI gets for most (hard fanmade) maps specifically means you're expected to abuse certain AI combat weaknesses to win. Whether you are using a log hero or not isn't actually that much of an issue.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 20, 2019 09:59 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Not to mention a human player can just reload the game and make better decisions.
If I'm playing a Logistics specialist it feels like cheating


Using a strong hero is cheating but reloading after a bad decision is not?
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