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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Speed upgrade for slowest units?
Thread: Speed upgrade for slowest units? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 15, 2019 09:02 PM

I agree or level 3, then they could still be hit by Implosion, but also be resurrected.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 15, 2019 10:37 PM

I don't know, man. I gave you my opninion, and it's based on experience. When I used to play against my friend (between 2000-2002 we would play h3 weekly) - coincidentally or not - one of his favorite towns has been Dungeon, and one of my favorites has always been Rampart. We have had many Gunnar vs Kyrre games, and I'm telling you that mass slow / haste has brought him more victories than Implosion, even though in our games (which always ended in month 12) Implosion would usually do between 7k-9k damage (depending on our artifacts and SP), which would be insignificant for the large armies we would carry (back then we would play with Diplomacy, and we would get 5hitton of level 7 creatures).

When you have 6-7k gold dragons with elixir of life killing 20 of them with implosion meant nothing at such scale of army that we've had. Even without diplomacy (as we have later played when we imposed non-game breaking rules like diplo, logistics, DD spamming, etc.) we would still have at least 800-900 tier 7 creatures each, and implosion would still kill only about 20-30 of them, which wouldn't matter squat. It has always been much more important to mass slow the enemy so you can shoot with the evil eyes and medusa queens, which would - in total - kill WAY more gold dragons than implosion.

Anyway, I told you my opinion, do with it as you wish
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 16, 2019 12:44 AM

No offense Monere, but that is also some absurd numbers you throw out there, 6-7k Gold Dragons. Damn that is a lot!
In the games I play 50-100 would probably be the highest possible amount over the entire course of the game and then 20 means a lot.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 16, 2019 01:08 AM
Edited by monere at 01:12, 16 Jun 2019.

none taken. When you have time play a random XL + U map, pick up diplomacy and starting with month 10 start gathering level 7 creatures and see how many will join you. But make sure you test various conditions, because the chance of creatures joining varies a lot, and depends on any of these factors:

1) whether or not you have that creature type in your army;
2) how large your army is (decent army increases your chance of joining tier 7 creatures, while large armies will make them flee, and small army will make them engage you);
3) treasury (sometimes, if you don't have enough money some of the creatures will fight or flee);

There might be other conditions, as well, but these are the ones that happen most of the time, and the ones I remember at the moment.

If, by the end of week 2, month 12 you don't end up with at least 5k creatures it means that you're lying, you haven't tested all 3 mentioned conditions, or that you've been really unlucky with the map, in which case try again with another map, but make sure that it's randomly generated map without water, and it's XL+U as that is the only map size that these numbers can be achieved on
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted June 16, 2019 01:55 AM

I support the idea of increasing speed of these units but you will need to increase the prizes for Churchyards and Dwarf treasures.

Also you will need to add +1 speed to Zombies too.

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MathGuyHere
MathGuyHere

Tavern Dweller
Not enough time for this...
posted June 17, 2019 06:53 PM

I think that I wouldn't like speed changes. Peasants, maybe. Other units can always have some use when properly commanded.
As I think about it, the only thing that really stops me from recruiting slow units into my armies is how they restrict hero's movement.
Limiting this downside (i.e.: units with 3 speed restrict hero movement like units with 4 speed) could be everything we need to see lots of golems running around.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2019 07:42 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:43, 17 Jun 2019.

MathGuyHere said:

As I think about it, the only thing that really stops me from recruiting slow units into my armies is how they restrict hero's movement.

I actually thought about that too, making speed 3 units have the same movement penalty as speed 4 units. That is perhaps the greatest problem with these slow units, that they cause very slow adventure movement.

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AlfWithCake
AlfWithCake


Known Hero
posted June 17, 2019 08:13 PM
Edited by AlfWithCake at 20:14, 17 Jun 2019.

Wouldn't it be better to have minimal map speed then, instead of increasing speed of creatures?

Oops, phoenix already suggested that

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2019 08:15 PM

That's what we just said.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 17, 2019 08:34 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 20:37, 17 Jun 2019.

phoenix4ever said:
MathGuyHere said:

As I think about it, the only thing that really stops me from recruiting slow units into my armies is how they restrict hero's movement.

I actually thought about that too, making speed 3 units have the same movement penalty as speed 4 units. That is perhaps the greatest problem with these slow units, that they cause very slow adventure movement.
I like this idea. So speed 3 units would have speed 3 in combat, but on the adventure map they would have the penalty of a speed 4 creature? So adventure map speed would be slightly faster, and make these units more viable when travelling?

Is that your guys line of thinking?

@phoenix4ever Weakening Gold Dragons spell immunity to level 3 would be interesting. But it also weakens them to offensive spells, but then again allows resurrection to be used on them. Very, very interesting idea. Might make them equal in terms to the Black Dragon, or even more favored/powerful.
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MathGuyHere
MathGuyHere

Tavern Dweller
Not enough time for this...
posted June 17, 2019 09:14 PM

Oddball13579 said:
adventure map speed would be slightly faster, and make these units more viable when travelling?
Is that your guys line of thinking?


Exactly. Slightly less punishing to chain these units into action without changing battle balance.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 17, 2019 09:18 PM

MathGuyHere said:
Oddball13579 said:
adventure map speed would be slightly faster, and make these units more viable when travelling?
Is that your guys line of thinking?


Exactly. Slightly less punishing to chain these units into action without changing battle balance.
I think this is a really good idea.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2019 09:31 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:34, 17 Jun 2019.

@Oddball Yes exactly, as MathGuy said. It would mean speed 3 creatures have 1560 movement points instead of 1500, small difference, but better than nothing.

Also glad you liked the level 1-3 immunity for Gold Dragons, I think they should be 1-3 or 1-5, 1-4 is just unfair. (Especially with HotA's new Resistance, which I don't like.)

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 17, 2019 09:39 PM

Agreed. 1-3 immunity to allow resurrection or 1-5 immunity just like Black Dragons.

Frankly I would prefer Gold Dragons to have 1-5 immunity. That way they are almost on par with Black Dragons and now players will have to learn to deal with them without relying on implosion.

Interesting to note that Azure Dragons are only immune to 1-3 spells. Which means they can be resurrected. As they should be able to, they are expensive as fudge.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2019 09:45 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:47, 17 Jun 2019.

Yes, but Azure Dragons can still be destroyed easily by Implosion. (Or Mighty Gorgons, behemoths or Sea Dogs)

Maybe 1-5 for Gold Dragons then, then they can also still be used as an Armageddon unit. (Not something Rampart would probably go for, but oh well.)
There is a downside to this though and it's that Resistance won't have any effect on them at all, which it would if 1-3...

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 17, 2019 09:50 PM

True, but if they are immune to all spells would they really need resistance?
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"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Famous Hero
posted June 17, 2019 10:06 PM

Still Unicorn Aura work like old Resistance.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2019 10:50 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 22:51, 17 Jun 2019.

@Oddball No exactly and that is why the Resistance skill is (partly) wasted.

Never found unicorn aura useful like ever, it would require unicorns to be in the center hex and Gold Dragons being right beside them and then what?, should Gold Dragons just stay beside the unicorns, unable to move, because of fear from being Imploded? LOL

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 17, 2019 11:54 PM

Ah true. But a lot of Rampart's units are rather tanky when it comes to resisting magic. So perhaps it would work for them if there level 7 unit was completely immune to magic.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 18, 2019 06:01 PM

Well it would certainly be better than now, that's for sure.

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