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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Lore: Are Giants / Titans constructs or a race?
Thread: Lore: Are Giants / Titans constructs or a race? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Horseman of Havoc
posted March 07, 2020 11:02 AM

Very good thread. I especially like Dj's points.

Perhaps the Titans in Homm3 are constructs made by Wizards to serve them but they are also based on an ancient race...
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 07, 2020 11:15 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:24, 07 Mar 2020.

I myself never thought of Titans being something else than constructs (at least actual ones) that can have consciousness and soul. And I also have to agree with DJ, there are probably more types of Titans created by different mages, but since you can resurrect them, I think the majority has to be of the "alive type".

And yes, it would have been cool to have a naga or a Titan hero. This reminds me of Sanctuary from MMH6, where all/most heroes were people.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 07, 2020 11:23 AM
Edited by OhforfSake at 11:30, 07 Mar 2020.

I also like many of DJ's ideas. The reasoning behind the discrepancy between the HoMM 3 & 4 Titans is really interesting. I don't like that the Titans or Dragons in the Titan's Stronghold of MM7 are corrupted, given that these creatures does seem to live next to each other in general.

As I see it the Dragons are no longer allied with the Warlock's, which I do think make sense, since they lost the war, but I am not familiar enough with the story (not lore) of the games that leads up to MM7 to be able to explain it better.

Are the Titan's still under the command of the Wizard's of Celeste? Perhaps the Wizards did not know what to do with the Dragons so they placed them together with the Titans as the only mean of containment? The units certainly don't fight each other though, and I don't think they fight the Devils either, so are these unit corrupted by the Devils, or do they simply not care about this last bastion of what was once a real threat to the world?

Alternatively are the creatures attacking our heroes because the Wizard's have instructed them to attack anyone who might make use of them, fearing the Warlock's would rise again?

Maybe they are there to stop wandering people to get in trouble with what remains of the Kreegans? And what is the deal with the Stronghold in Avlee? The only semblance I see is that there is a temple of the Moon nearby, which would support the idea that these creatures are there to stop a repeat of what happened in M&M VI, but such an idea is very... airy I guess?

To be honest, I don't mind what the explanation is, as long as it makes some degree of sense. Otherwise I feel it might break the immersion.

Edit: 2 things more I wanted to point out.
1) Since it has been mentioned that Angels are robots (non-living), isn't it amazing they carry the ability of Resurrection, that which can turn something once alive, alive again? Perhaps this ability is also the reason they have organic traits in stead of that of constructs?

2) Notice on the map of M&M 7, you'll see that Avlee does not border the LotG, which means the Titan's Stronghold is not simply an outpost. Therefore my guess is someone must have intentionally build it and placed the creatures inside, and since it is not because of anything particular on the inside (I doubt the Perfect Bow is that valuable), I guess it is due to something on the outside.
Also we see in the Human-Elven war that the Elves are not a master of the creatures that live in their region the same way Erathia has tamed some of the Griffins, hence the Titan's Stronghold is unlikely to hold much alliance with Avlee (they may be there to defend it though).

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
Master of the Sword
posted March 07, 2020 11:42 AM

Does anyone have a source where it says something about the lore behind angels?

OhforfSake said:
Are the Titan's still under the command of the Wizard's of Celeste? Perhaps the Wizards did not know what to do with the Dragons so they placed them together with the Titans as the only mean of containment? The units certainly don't fight each other though, and I don't think they fight the Devils either, so are these unit corrupted by the Devils, or do they simply not care about this last bastion of what was once a real threat to the world?


The devils in MM7 fight against the titans when you lure them to one another. I don't know about the dragons. So it seems to make some sense to think of these titans as a bulwark against the devils. The dragons just naturally live there, since there is a huge dragon cave up in the mountains.

In my German Heroes 3 manual it says about tower units: They are either created by magic (gargoyles, golems, titans?), forced into service (gremlins) or bound to the tower faction by ancient covenants (genies?, nagas, titans?).
(original: "Die Bevölkerung der Türme besteht aus Kreaturen, die entweder durch Magie erschaffen, zum Dienst gezwungen oder durch uralte Pakte an die Turm-Städte gebunden sind.")
So titans are either created by magic or there exists an ancient covenant which binds them to the tower faction.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 07, 2020 11:58 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:10, 07 Mar 2020.

So much for Tower being a "good" faction, when they have slaves. Gremlins, gargoyles and nagas does'nt look especially "good" either.

Ugh I hate the angels are robots lore, it's really not good, why can't angels just be angels instead of being robots...
And Inferno being aliens is just as ridiculous. What was wrong with heaven and hell?, why did they have to bring robots and aliens into a medieval setting. (Yes I know there are aliens and stuff in the Might and Magic games, but I never liked that either.)

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 07, 2020 12:27 PM
Edited by dj at 12:50, 07 Mar 2020.

Tower is 'good' because we identify with them and whom they re allied to (Castle and Rampart) and because they have same values as us. Whereas, on the other side, there are the invaders, demons, the undead who contradict eveything that means life and warlocks who toy with living beings and create new ones as if they re Gods. Not very relatable so they re considered 'bad'.

But Bracada only defends their home alongside Castle and Rampart. Their magis use their magic to bolster their army with gargoyles, golems and titans and call for help from the Elemental Planes of Air (Genies) and of Water (Nagas). And, yes, as you can see from the metal ball tied up to the legs of the Gremlins, one can say that they re slaves. I would rather associate them with goblins, orcs and ogres since they re green-skinned and Bracada used to rule over the Krewlod territory, only that maybe the Gremlin tribes were closer to Bracada and were fully assimilated to the Empire.

And, a bit offtopic, even if it maybe sounds a bit too much of a 'conspiracy theory', im still trying to figure out which universe came first: the M&M or the Warcraft one. I find it odd that as HOMM3/4 fell (devs threatened with death letters?? really?), Warcraft III rose and, shockingly, they both had the nonconformist idea of demons as alien invaders (exactly same idea) and many more aspects of the universe (spaceships as raids, titans in warcraft/ancients in M&M who 'seed' planets with races, many types of dragons, especially the black one who resides in the underground -Deathwing??- etc etc).



Quote:
Does anyone have a source where it says something about the lore behind angels?


There's this excerpt from an interview with Greg Fulton from this page. And the question with the answer are quite interesting:

The question:

Quote:
Q: DOES SCIENCE FICTION BELONG IN HEROES?


And the answer:

Quote:
GF: Yes. Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism. If you disagree, your reasoning is emotional, not logical. Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons. If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.


It is very intriguing that they bring up the Arch Angels as an aswer regarding to SCIENCE FICTION. I would say that it confirms [by inferring] that they are robots. Probably revealed ulteriorly in the M&M game.

EDIT: this part right here:
'Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism.' is also present in the Warcraft universe.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 07, 2020 01:13 PM
Edited by Galaad at 13:15, 07 Mar 2020.

sirironfist said:
Does anyone have a source where it says something about the lore behind angels?


Yes.

Quote:
XEL: What is the origin of angels and archangels? Don’t worry, we won't have a heart attack

GF: Over the course of my time at New World, on occasion, typically when taking a break, I would wander into Paul Rattner’s office.  Even though MM6 was in mid production, Paul was already thinking about MM7, so I made sure to update him on what was happening with HoMM3.

When I told him about the changes to the factions, I specifically mentioned the Angels.  At that point in time, Paul was essentially the lore master for the MM universe.  On the topic of the Angels and Arch Angels, he proposed they be sophisticated robots created by the Ancients to hunt down and eradicate the Kreegans.  I agreed, and we ran with it.

Later, after the Forge was shelved, I remember thinking to myself, “If people have a problem with the whole ‘goblins are aliens’ idea, I can only imagine what they will think if they figure out the true origins of the Angels.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 07, 2020 01:28 PM

Goblins are aliens too??

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 07, 2020 01:45 PM

No, in Forge leaked screens, Goblins (and other creatures) got guns. Forge was something like ST Borgs.
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zydar
zydar


Hired Hero
posted March 07, 2020 01:48 PM

i doubted wizard can construct Giants/Titans
The top tier creatures wizard can construct is dragon golem (h4)

Maybe Giants/Titans is servant of the ancients/ancestor, construct by the ancients/ancestor or races create by the ancients/ancestor
If angels created to combat devils/kreegans, the Giants/titans created to compete bad dragons


They immune to mind spell because giants/titans very intellegent creature something like melian/escaton with lesser degree
or
since bad dragon in many lore have hypnotic power , as natural enemy Giants/Titans are immune

giants/titans align with Wizard(tower) because they need hight intelegent/knowledge commander

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 07, 2020 02:11 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:12, 07 Mar 2020.

phoenix4ever said:
So much for Tower being a "good" faction, when they have slaves. Gremlins, gargoyles and nagas does'nt look especially "good" either.

Ugh I hate the angels are robots lore, it's really not good, why can't angels just be angels instead of being robots...
And Inferno being aliens is just as ridiculous. What was wrong with heaven and hell?, why did they have to bring robots and aliens into a medieval setting. (Yes I know there are aliens and stuff in the Might and Magic games, but I never liked that either.)


I have nothing against demons being aliens. There are even theories that say they are aliens, but that's off-topic.

Dj said:
Goblins are aliens too??


Yes, they are. You didn't know?

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
Master of the Sword
posted March 07, 2020 02:13 PM
Edited by sirironfist at 14:14, 07 Mar 2020.

Seems like the Heroes 4 creators didn't pay too much attention to such details.

Quote:
In terms of game mechanics, what Jon and I wanted to avoid, was having yet another group of troops immune to Mind Spells.  To  this end, I considered Naga, Giants, and Titans to be conceptually similar to Dendroids, but there was never any specific lore explanation crafted to elaborate on this idea.


What does he mean by conceptually similar exactly? Dendroids and nagas aren't constructs, are they?
After all it seems like this part of the lore really isn't set in stone.

I was thinking about and reading about what the Ancients really are. It might be appropriate to think of the Ancients as some kind of gods as far as I can see it. It could be comparable to Tolkien's "Silmarillion". The gods (Valar) send out angel-like beings (Maiar, Gandalf for example) out into the world to defend the good world from the evil forces stemming from the evil god (Morgoth). That seems to be exactly what the Ancients do when creating the angels to fend off the Kreegans. Kreegans on the other hand seem to be the embodiment of evil (such as Morgoth):

Quote:
In 2000, Greg Fulton, designer of Heroes of Might and Magic III: Armageddon's Blade, described the kreegans as "aliens who look like demons". They are often referred to as the "creators of evil" or the "original demons."
https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Kreegan


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 07, 2020 02:15 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:21, 07 Mar 2020.

FirePaladin said:
phoenix4ever said:
So much for Tower being a "good" faction, when they have slaves. Gremlins, gargoyles and nagas does'nt look especially "good" either.

Ugh I hate the angels are robots lore, it's really not good, why can't angels just be angels instead of being robots...
And Inferno being aliens is just as ridiculous. What was wrong with heaven and hell?, why did they have to bring robots and aliens into a medieval setting. (Yes I know there are aliens and stuff in the Might and Magic games, but I never liked that either.)


I have nothing against demons being aliens. There are even theories (and ancient religions) that say Angels and Demons are aliens, but that's totally off-topic.

Dj said:
Goblins are aliens too??


Yes, they are. You didn't know?


zydar said:
i doubted wizard can construct Giants/Titans
The top tier creatures wizard can construct is dragon golem (h4)

Maybe Giants/Titans is servant of the ancients/ancestor, construct by the ancients/ancestor or races create by the ancients/ancestor
If angels created to combat devils/kreegans, the Giants/titans created to compete bad dragons


They immune to mind spell because giants/titans very intellegent creature something like melian/escaton with lesser degree
or
since bad dragon in many lore have hypnotic power , as natural enemy Giants/Titans are immune

giants/titans align with Wizard(tower) because they need hight intelegent/knowledge commander



Yeah, this is good too. And then mages create Titans/Giants following an Ancients' "recipe" (or maybe they just teleport them like Angels are).

Also, let's not forget. Since Jon Van Caneghem seems to have created the MM universe inspired by the whole "ancient aliens" (aliens create Earth and humans, etc.) thing, there's a chance Titans were inspired by the so-called "good giants", which exist in many beliefs. But again, this is half off-topic and is mostly just a fun fact.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Horseman of Havoc
posted March 07, 2020 02:20 PM

I like the demons as aliens and even angels as constructs much better than the typical angels vs demons good vs evil battle. Of course, in many ways it is still a good vs evil battle as the Kreegans are definitely evil.

Sometimes I wish the Forge made it into the Armageddon's Blade expansion. I don't know if it would have been better, but it's fun to think about.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 07, 2020 02:28 PM

In my opinion, Forge would have been a nice addition to the game (since I love combining ancient lore, science-fiction and medieval-stuff together and also snake-women). But it should have been banned from multiplayer . And there should have been an option to disable all "Forge" stuff, for all the players who wanted to keep the game "intact".

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Horseman of Havoc
posted March 07, 2020 02:31 PM

FirePaladin said:
In my opinion, Forge would have been a nice addition to the game (since I love combining ancient lore, science-fiction and medieval-stuff together and also snake-women). But it should have been banned from multiplayer . And there should have been an option to disable all "Forge" stuff, for all the players who wanted to keep the game "intact".


I agree! I would have liked it especially implemented that way.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 07, 2020 04:12 PM

sirironfist said:
The devils in MM7 fight against the titans when you lure them to one another.


I am surprised I didn't knew this since I really enjoy creatures infighting, thank you for telling me.

Funny thing, the Blood Titan is probably the most powerful creature in the game when considering their special, and may still be the most - or second most powerful when not accounting their special (I have made some tests in the Arena, which is an inside area).
Yet when facing the Devils, 2-3 Meteor Showers would destroy 1 Blood Titan, while the Blood Titan would require 3-6 hits depending on what kind of Devil it was attacking. Combine that with the Devils running around like crazy and the Titans being slow and easy targets, I guess the Devils could actually defeat the Titans.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 08, 2020 11:29 AM

For me, the death animation of all sorts of Giants/Titans from HoMM II and M&M VI and VII speaks enough about their artificial origin. Whether they have "living souls" is another matter but it seems to me they have not been intended to be just big golems.

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 08, 2020 01:12 PM

Speculation: The origin of Titans and Angels

Quote:
i doubted wizard can construct Giants/Titans
The top tier creatures wizard can construct is dragon golem (h4)

Maybe Giants/Titans is servant of the ancients/ancestor, construct by the ancients/ancestor or races create by the ancients/ancestor
If angels created to combat devils/kreegans, the Giants/titans created to compete bad dragons


It might actually be true.
We can also take clues about the origin of Giants and Angels from the names of the dwellings.


Place of Worship

Let's take a look at the Titan's dwelling: Cloud Temple. 'Temple' is a place of worship. I doubt that the magis worship their creation. They re much more arrogant than that. We can also see how they would 'treat' their creation in the name of the 3rd level dwelling: Golem Factory.
So i imagine that the Giants and Titans were created by a higher divine race (presumably, the Ancients) a long time ago and placed them on atop of the mountains to guard and protect the planet. Whether the temples were created by magis to worship them or the temples were created by the Gods when they created the Titans is unknown.

Through the Sky Portals

Now, looking at the dwelling for the Archangels, 'Portal of Glory' and at the dynamic of the story (spontaneous invasion by the Kreegans) and the fact that HoMM3 is the first installment of the series that has Angels/Archangels, one can conclude that Archangels are coming through the sky portals at the moment of the invasion for the first time on this planet. We might be looking at a second generation of Godly creations (Titans being the first ones created unknown aeons ago) and some ACTIVE ('active' because in the Heroes Chronicles we are left with the impression that their are absent) members of the pantheon (Ancients or other race of gods) who, if they did not creat the Archangels specifically for the invasion of the Kreegans, they sent one of their creation on a quest to protect the planet. Or maybe the Archangels are as old as the Titans but since they have wings they can roam the universe to chase the Kreegans and protect the worlds from them.

Very likely allies

It would also explain the alliance between the humans and the magis. Two factions who have godly creations, Angels and Titans, as their top tier military force. So what about the Green/Gold Dragons and their origins? What about the mysterious Monks, another creature which first appeared in the series? What hides under their robes? Is it another robotic humanoid? Less likely since we have human heroes as clerics (pretty close the monks/zealots), but who knows?



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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 08, 2020 02:19 PM

I doubt monks/zealots are dome kind of robots too (it would be too much already). Maybe just some battle-clerics who like to stay anonymous .

And well, I remember some "good" dragons being in the earlier Might and Magic, but there are just very little connections to the Rampart dragons (or anything between the "greater world" and the Rampart faction itself).

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