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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Lore: Are Giants / Titans constructs or a race?
Thread: Lore: Are Giants / Titans constructs or a race? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
Master of the Sword
posted March 08, 2020 04:31 PM
Edited by sirironfist at 16:34, 08 Mar 2020.

The whole intention of the Rampart faction is said to be the protection of Erathias nature. So I see it as an alliance which is based on the shared worries for the well-being of nature. Also, green and gold dragons live on cliffs, so they are most likely native creatures to the Erathian wilderness.

But maybe there is something like that to dendroids. That would explain the statement I quoted above. They spawn out of some kind of forest-gate, don't they? Maybe they too are godly creations which appear when nature is in danger. And Kreegans sure are a danger to nature. That might be the basis on which the elves allied themselves to humans and wizards.

Now I wish I was more educated in mythology, because this seems to be a common motive, too. It's similar to Tolkien's world again, where the Ents, which are god-like spirits, roam the world to protect nature. But Tolkien sure derived this idea from somewhere (maybe Norse mythology).

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 08, 2020 04:52 PM

Yeah, I know. This game is full of mythology, even the Ancients themselves are mythology (see what I said in one of my comments).

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 09, 2020 01:16 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:17, 09 Mar 2020.

I hadn't thought of Heroes 4 Titans as an example.

These titans look very much fleshy in contrast to the clear stony skin of H3 titans. Not only that, they don't have mind spell immunity.


titans h4

I find it most likely that these titans are NOT the same giants/titans as in H3.

The most likely explanation is that there is both a Titan construct and a Titan race, upon which the constructs were based, as another player said.
Further evidence of this are artifacts such as "Titan's Gladius" and "Titan's Thunder" and "Titan's Cuirass". As these artifacts are made for a Hero and not a Creature, I think this could be taken as evidence they were made by an organic titan race. We have no example of any canon Titan heroes, though (even if one is added in my H4 mod), unlike say, Dragon heroes, Orc heroes, Gnoll heroes, etc.

So now I lean to believe H3 Giants and Titans are constructs, but the titans in H4 represent the biological race the construct is based on.

Tellingly, the other Academy max level creature are Dragon Golems, which are precisely constructs based on dragons; showing this copying is a standard procedure for wizards.


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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 09, 2020 11:44 AM
Edited by dj at 12:06, 09 Mar 2020.

That's exactly what i said in my previous posts, BUT (there's always a but in HoMM lore; this lore inconsistency raises more questions when answering)...

We don't know exacly whether they re from Enroth or Axeoth because, as we re told in the HoMM4 cinematic, acts of bravery were performed by Angels and higher beings who opened portals to Axeoth throughout the Cataclysm and  the denizen were saved by teleporting them. So they obviously could have saved the living Titans and left behind the contructed Titans since they have no 'life value'.


The presence of constructs in Academy might be explained by the fact that the Gold Golems are easier to construct and animate since they re not as complex as Titans and they, they knew the formula and it didnt take them too long to create them and the Dragon Golems don't seem to be magically enhanced. They are manouvred by a human all the time so i think that they fall in the category of steampunk.

Too bad that we re not being told which creature is originatig on Axeoth because that would save us a lot of trouble.

Quote:
But maybe there is something like that to dendroids. That would explain the statement I quoted above. They spawn out of some kind of forest-gate, don't they? Maybe they too are godly creations which appear when nature is in danger. And Kreegans sure are a danger to nature. That might be the basis on which the elves allied themselves to humans and wizards.


I dont think that their dwelling works as a gate/portal. In Ryland's biography we're being told about the Circle of Treefolk. This shows us that there's an notorious faction of dendroids and that they might have been on this planet for a very long time.
So they were either created on this planet or on other planet/Elemental Plane of Earth/Nature/Life (?). Does the Mother Dragon (mentioned in Gelu's campaign) is related to them?

But we dont see dendroids on Axeoth so they might have gone extinct with the Cataclysm.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 09, 2020 03:13 PM

Remember the Crystal Dragons, which are alive and have an artificial heart, created by the Bracada mages? Maybe it's the same for the constructed H2 and H3 Giants/Titans, hence they can be resurrected.

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
Master of the Sword
posted March 09, 2020 03:17 PM

That still wouldn't explain the religious nature of the dwelling, which seems like a good point to me.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 09, 2020 03:26 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 15:27, 09 Mar 2020.

sirironfist said:
That still wouldn't explain the religious nature of the dwelling, which seems like a good point to me.


Maybe the Temple is a portal coming from an Ancients' Titan factory? The Ancients too can use the same "artificial heart" technique, and the mages could have copied it and used it for Crystal Dragons, which appeared after the Titans did. Or maybe the Temple contains blueprints from the Ancients (of course, they are copies of the original) for the construction of Titans.

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 09, 2020 03:51 PM

I doubt that the magis have such a good connection with the Ancients.

They only appear in Tarnum's dreams and very scarecly. We get the impression that they are very hard to reach/absent. And it only happens to Tarnum because he has been gifted with immortality by them. He's a special case. I think that the majority of the planet's population dont even know about them, not to mention having any connection with them.

And, again, i wouldnt rely on game mechanics because they took game balancing into consideration. But, yeah, loopholes make every explanation possible in an equal way and im sure that many details can be seen in the Might and Magic games (raid architechture, in game books, descriptions, names etc.) which i havent played at all.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 09, 2020 04:25 PM

dj said:
I doubt that the magis have such a good connection with the Ancients.

They only appear in Tarnum's dreams and very scarecly. We get the impression that they are very hard to reach/absent. And it only happens to Tarnum because he has been gifted with immortality by them. He's a special case. I think that the majority of the planet's population dont even know about them, not to mention having any connection with them.

And, again, i wouldnt rely on game mechanics because they took game balancing into consideration. But, yeah, loopholes make every explanation possible in an equal way and im sure that many details can be seen in the Might and Magic games (raid architechture, in game books, descriptions, names etc.) which i havent played at all.


You don't get it. The humans have the same connection with the Ancients through the Portals of Glory (but they don't know of the Ancients and can't go to the other side of the portal). And I never said the magi knew WHO creates the Titans coming from the Temple or who created the blueprints for them. But they decided to use them anyway, just like the humans did with the Angels.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 09, 2020 05:38 PM

I think that lore was never closed with precision in question like this. One group of NWC thoughts that all of these creatures are ancients constructs second that are various races colonised worlds using ancients gates... So we cant give finally answer...
Better storyline and lineup for tower is a mechanised city ruled by mages. So only mages are humans. Gremlins probably are living creatures. Nagas hard to talk. Rest are products.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 09, 2020 06:17 PM

Baronus said:
I think that lore was never closed with precision in question like this. One group of NWC thoughts that all of these creatures are ancients constructs second that are various races colonised worlds using ancients gates... So we cant give finally answer...
Better storyline and lineup for tower is a mechanised city ruled by mages. So only mages are humans. Gremlins probably are living creatures. Nagas hard to talk. Rest are products.


Isn't this the exact same storyline of H3 Tower (the one you suggested)? Mages are the only humans, gremlins are damn slaves, Nagas some kind of servants (mostly for... war purposes), Genies are beings summoned from the Plane of Air, golems, gargoyles, Giants and Titans are constructs, even though the later two are probably alive (who says a construct can't be alive?).

And yes, you're probably right. The lore is truly full of holes.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 09, 2020 07:25 PM

In H4 storyline is another as you see human model and other abilities. But theres no mind resistance option in H4 so its maybe only reason. Generally H4 is weird. Tower is little steamage city as you see:


So technology is better solution. We have a lot races in H3. Some constructs is better option.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 09, 2020 08:05 PM

Baronus said:
In H4 storyline is another as you see human model and other abilities. But theres no mind resistance option in H4 so its maybe only reason. Generally H4 is weird. Tower is little steamage city as you see:


So technology is better solution. We have a lot races in H3. Some constructs is better option.


That's why I didn't mention H4. And from what I've read (official sources, ofc), the Grail structure of Tower is mostly a gremlin's creation, not mages'.

And in H4, the "hierarchy" (and storyline) changed because of the Reckoning, which was a catastrophe that made the mages change things. Also, I think there was a mention about creatures "changing" after leaving the portal, which might be the cause of the Titans' flesh nature in H4.

For the one who said the Angels (or someone else) created the portals, no, it wasn't them, it was the Guardian of Enroth who did that.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 14, 2020 07:39 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 08:30, 14 Mar 2020.

Quote:
They are manouvred by a human all the time so i think that they fall in the category of steampunk


I think the Dragon Golems are described as being manufactured and run by "Mysterious red dwarves", not humans. And the figure does look somewhat not human.

So, you are right to say they are not magically enchanced in the point that they are not animated by Wizards. But they are also not created by humans.

Quote:
Also, I think there was a mention about creatures "changing" after leaving the portal, which might be the cause of the Titans' flesh nature in H4.


Never noticed such a mention, could you reckon a source?

***

Dendroids seem to be basically Ents. I don't know if they are divine or just natural in H3 lore.
By Tolkien's lore they were created by divine beings (basically very high independent angels with norse-like divinity roles) to protect the forest and gifted life by Illuvatar (essentially God).

Since their names are Guard and Soldier we can assume they have assigned military roles.
We also know they grow from Saplings (as in the horde building) so they aren't fully created. At most designed as a race, but not "made" individually as finished products.

Dendroids don't appear in H4 sadly. There are "waspworts". Since nothing like that was in previous titles, I think we can safely assume they are native to Axeoth.

Quote:
But theres no mind resistance option in H4 so its maybe only reason.


They could have created Mind resistance as a creature ability. There is an artifact that protects your hero from Mind spells AFAIK. And hero abilities are the same codes as creature abilities in H4. Its how Equilibris made their artifacts like griffin helm. So, developers could have given them "mind resistance" if they wanted to. As a whole I think the "stone look to flesh look, no mind to no chaos" go both in the same direction: that the old Titans were constructs and the new ones are living beings.

***

And about some more off-game speculation:

Quote:
And, a bit offtopic, even if it maybe sounds a bit too much of a 'conspiracy theory', im still trying to figure out which universe came first: the M&M or the Warcraft one. I find it odd that as HOMM3/4 fell (devs threatened with death letters?? really?), Warcraft III rose and, shockingly, they both had the nonconformist idea of demons as alien invaders (exactly same idea) and many more aspects of the universe (spaceships as raids, titans in warcraft/ancients in M&M who 'seed' planets with races, many types of dragons, especially the black one who resides in the underground -Deathwing??- etc etc).


This idea isn't really that novel.

Warhammer seems to be a probable ancestor. Blizzard Games (creators of Warcraft franchise) were going to do a Warhammer game at first, but then their partnership fell off.

That's why Warcraft has basically Warhammer orcs.

And why Starcraft Marines are basically exactly Space Marines in appearance (Zerg were Tyranids, Protoss were Eldar though these were heavily redesigned to be more about armor than mobility... just to be made like Eldar again in Starcraft II). Starcraft was to be the Warhammer 40.000 game, and Warcraft the Warhammer Fantasy game.

See here:
How Warcraft Was Almost a Warhammer Game

So, the origin of this whole "civilization descending into barbarism" for Warcraft seems to be basically the Warhammer idea. And demons come from a parallel dimension there using unholy magic... much as in Warcraft.

However the M&M world seems to be at its core MUCH more Sci-Fi. The idea that Warhammer Fantasy was set in the newer Warhammer 40.000 or that they were lore connected was ultimately discarded. Even WH 40.000 is basically Space Opera with only superficial sci fi. And Warcraft has no explicit sci fi backdrop.

In contrast with both warcraft and warhammer, the original Might and Magic universe (AKA not Ashan) seems to be completely drenched in the notion of "Fantasy is just a charade for ancient high tecnology, robots, space travel and aliens" including prominently featuring a fully futuristic spaceship (Lincoln). This as we know would have been eventually fully included in the Heroes depiction of the universe if not for the fan backlash.

***

Also abou the Monk mentions: Very likely monks are just humans like the monk heroes.

HOWEVER, what do monks actually worship? Angels? (since they came out at the same time) - We have no actual reference that M&M priests actually believe in "God".  There is no christianity in this universe, ironically for a divine-western european style town... so, what do they believe in?

Their description does not give an answer other than they "pursue knowledge":
Quote:
Clerics are members of the fighting forces of their holy orders. They pursue a range of knowledge, both martial and mystical

https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Cleric_(H3)

From hero stories and bios, Clerics seem to be mostly healers, more dedicated to healing the sick and to study magic than to worship... they also fervently opposse necromancy, and many nigromancers tend to be "corrupted" clerics, some of which went too far into ""healing"".
Before H4, there was no "divine" magic type, only elemental ones: Some "divine" style spells like mirth and bless are Water, while others like resurrection are Earth, yet others like Destroy Undead are Air, and Armageddon is Fire. So it seems Clerics would learn all types of magic. And even the descriptions of the more "pious" ones say nothing of worship or religious leadership:
Ingham maintained a modest monastery for most of his life, tending gardens and translating texts. He enjoyed the quiet life. But then the Reckoning destroyed everything, leaving him desperate to reclaim that peace even if it means going to war.

- in h4, all four elements got "folded" into Nature and the new Priest class would only learn by default the divine-themed "life" magic -the name already hints that it may not be so holy or divine-, but no further official information on the class itself seems to appear.

All in all, I would say clerics are the "wizards" of the Castle faction, and have more of a function within society as scholars, medics and magic users than as a "clergy" in the real world.

In Ashan we know all:
They worship a dragon. Rawr. Though that's also the backstory for basically every single faction as a whole...
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 14, 2020 12:29 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:29, 14 Mar 2020.

NimoStar said:
Quote:
Also, I think there was a mention about creatures "changing" after leaving the portal, which might be the cause of the Titans' flesh nature in H4.


Never noticed such a mention, could you reckon a source?


Hmm, I'm pretty sure I've read the part with changing after exiting the portal on https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki, but I can't seem to find it now. It must have been my imagination, even though I'll continue searching a little more. Also, was the part with "reckon" intentional?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 15, 2020 03:40 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:50, 15 Mar 2020.

Probably not, but it IS a funny pun

It is rather a possibility that you imagined it.
When our brains notice something doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, we invent inferred information to fill in the gaps.

That's pretty much when this thread is, anyways :V
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