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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HoMM - balance issue
Thread: HoMM - balance issue This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 07, 2020 06:20 PM

HoMM - balance issue

Can make a HoMM balance? Once 3DO has done theory, math and also game testing. If you didn’t keep their balance, can you create a “better balance”? Ok I tell you, others do the same. But no balance goes the same. Everyone has different balance efforts. What can that mean? Unsuccessful! Therefore, there is also a MOD skill limit to create balance. It also means no HotA team is the only one to create the right balance. Don't believe in balance. If I remember correctly, the psychologist says the rule creator has already disappeared from the game. Loser! Then H4 changed a lot and more balance. Because of theory, math, game testing and also experience, and then newer engine gives more possibility. H4 own small MOD option. Nice they immediately created balance, when they're playing for a little time. A balance master needs to become familiar with HoMM for a long time. How long had you considered balance? What is the result?
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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 07, 2020 06:24 PM

Perfect balance: the same stats, costs, skills, only diffirent graphics.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 07, 2020 06:33 PM

Interesting. Your solution can be the best. When MOD means graphics, power example of Doom2 changed 3D and stronger monster, and also stats, etc if you create a new creature. But you get a older or newer stats.
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Mortarial
Mortarial

Tavern Dweller
posted September 07, 2020 07:02 PM

avatar said:
Perfect balance: the same stats, costs, skills, only diffirent graphics.


Yet the White side in Chess statistically has better winrate...

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 07, 2020 07:25 PM

A very old-time Capablanca, etc said white always wins. Today, players say white is attacker has force to take win and black defender seeks a draw. Nowadays chess engine gives the answer both draw. I'm ex-chess player, you find my games in chess database. I played joke. So we (chess player) talked already. Chess is perfect. Another what? Chess games have many milloin. Company collects chess games to chessbase, those are different also amount of games. The best chessbase is sahovski informator gives pure stats. Don't trust other database.
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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 07, 2020 07:48 PM

Ballance is very important for good gameplay. It looks the best if its not a ballanced. Heroes 1-2 peasants and dragons. Peasants are completly useles on the other side you cannot recruit other units in warlock castle only dragons you win all. In heroes 3 for luck there is no such as this nonsense. But starting castle with pikmens and archers and starting with imps and gogs is a big difference. It break game. Ideal solution is not to easy and not to in hard each city.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 07, 2020 08:53 PM

HotA is pretty nicely balanced. Could use some tweaks to some towns, but nothing is garbage.
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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted September 07, 2020 11:49 PM

Heroes 5 did a really good job on balance as well. Some factions were better than others but none were game-breaking and none were completely unusable. Any faction could beat any other faction, skill was more important than faction choice. Unlike Heroes 3 where Necro and Conflux obliterated everything and Inferno was totally worthless in multiplayer.

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 08, 2020 12:51 AM

Doomforge said:
HotA is pretty nicely balanced. Could use some tweaks to some towns, but nothing is garbage.

What i dont like about hota is that the final fights are usually one-sided and a big mess due to all the free army from creature banks. Getting 1 week earlier in the rich middle zone gives crushing advantage.
I would really like to see some templates without creature banks and with preset creature dwellings - lets say 1 dwelling of each tier 1-3 units. And with a middle zone that is not too much richer than the other zones.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
posted September 08, 2020 08:42 AM

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46065

Balance is the goal of my current project.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 08, 2020 08:55 AM

Also mine:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43804

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted September 08, 2020 09:42 AM

"To much" balance can influence the game in a bad way. It takes out these little moments of joy when you obtain an OP fun/artifact/hero or whatever. That makes the game enjoyable.
For multiplayer it is different because the fun in MP comes from beating your opponent skill-wise. Having unbalanced mechanics rather leads to frustration.
It is always difficult for a game to manage such a balancing act. Good that we are able to change anything we want in this game, thanks to modding

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2020 09:53 AM

Having abrupt big bonus is probability question. Not ballance. You want more random big bonuses or no?
Ballance is constatant value and more means always better. If like in Heroes I if you play knigt vs wizard you have 95% to lose and if you play warlock 95% to win. Its nothing exciting. Of course playing knight may be challenge but we have other ways to make chalenging gameplay than ballance devastation. We can eg. give opononents 2-3 cities playing with one. Ballance the same gameplay hardest. Ballance is not equality! Its often mistaked. We espacially told ballance not eg. dull fiat etc.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
posted September 08, 2020 11:04 AM
Edited by BTB at 11:05, 08 Sep 2020.

Balance is having a game with nine factions where no matter which one you choose, the other player isn't annoyed because you chose something overpowered (Necropolis) or ssnowing because you chose garbage (Inferno).

EDIT:

...wow, LOVELY word filtering on this snowin' forum >.>

How about snickering. Let's see if it likes snickering.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2020 12:46 PM

Second question is a deleting useless unit. Gremlins without shooting are completly for nothing. Will be good to repair. The same giantas charm to lose it after upgrading. Imps too. But higher ips growth is enough. Giant must have higher stats maybe 250 hp.
Cyclop dwellinh cost 10 crystals and 10 wood or ore.
Will be good correct hero starting units. Eg. Castle has it very strong inferno weak. Stronghold too. Gameplay will be better.
We dont need orginal stats for ever. NWC tem was corrected stats too as you know reptlians and flies are boosted in final edition. So they thought about ballance.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 08, 2020 01:25 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 13:25, 08 Sep 2020.

Zaio-Baio said:
What i dont like about hota is that the final fights are usually one-sided and a big mess due to all the free army from creature banks.



I'm not a fan of creature bank meta either, it actually made me quit competitive play many, many years ago. Before HotA, in fact.

But all factions can benefit from creature banks and HotA team added some banks to make Castle not the only faction that gets its tier 7s for free from the map.

So it's not really a balance issue.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 08, 2020 03:53 PM

@BTB, phoenix4ever

A good job. We need vanilla, and also to edit HotA. So you will understand balance isn't easy. Initial balance always be poor, and later on better. Experience always learns a new thing and trick.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 08, 2020 05:48 PM

RerryR said:
"To much" balance can influence the game in a bad way. It takes out these little moments of joy when you obtain an OP fun/artifact/hero or whatever. That makes the game enjoyable.
For multiplayer it is different because the fun in MP comes from beating your opponent skill-wise. Having unbalanced mechanics rather leads to frustration.
It is always difficult for a game to manage such a balancing act. Good that we are able to change anything we want in this game, thanks to modding


A lot of truth in this post. I never played competitive tournaments but a lot of friendly hotseats, and there is also the thing that many players have different skills. So the unbalance or luck can create surprises and give birth to games that goes beyond the better skill beats weaker skill aspect. I understand the frustration in terms of e-sport, but taking the game in such a way somehow removes a part of the magic for me.
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 08, 2020 07:28 PM

Homm3 will never be completely balanced, there are simply too many towns with too many scenarios (different types and sized maps, etc) in order that to happen. Just look at game such as starcraft (original or sequal), with 3 races, and how Blizz has struggeled to balance them over the years. Players will always find innovative ways of gaining any kind of advantage, and it's no different in Homm3 either.

Still, some sort of balance is worth pursuing, I think. The thing is, that if the game doesn't at least lean towards being balanced, a lot of content will not see any play.

IMO atleast the secondary skills should "balanced" in the sense of them all be worth picking. They take place in the game regardless of the map and the chosen town. If they would all be somehow "worthy", more diverse builds would be possible (=more fun). Sadly, this is not the case currently.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 09, 2020 02:02 PM

Mortarial said:
avatar said:
Perfect balance: the same stats, costs, skills, only diffirent graphics.


Yet the White side in Chess statistically has better winrate...


This is mainly due to an imbalance in the number of moves made. Since white always starts, whenever white wins, they made 1 more move in that game than black. The only way to alleviate this is to modify the rules somewhat: black always makes the last move and if black manages to checkmate the white king with its final move after getting checkmated by white, the game is a draw.

You should see the odds of black winning vs. white winning even out.
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