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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HoMM - balance issue
Thread: HoMM - balance issue This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 09, 2020 02:32 PM

Yes in chess white player theoreticaly ,always win'. So tournaments never plays only one gameplay. Masters switching colors.
...
Yes I see nothing fun in Heroes I knight town. Its simply crappy faction. Wizrad is reverse underpowered. I ballancd it and im my version gamplay is brilliant! All faction is danger for all other.
50 pixies growth and citadel patch tell us that ballance was important for NWC team. They boosted cerbers but didnt do it with imps. Worst thing now is goblins imp growth now. Sholud be boosted to pixies number.. Hero starting army too. Gameplay will be rally better.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 09, 2020 02:59 PM

Maurice said:
Mortarial said:
avatar said:
Perfect balance: the same stats, costs, skills, only diffirent graphics.


Yet the White side in Chess statistically has better winrate...


This is mainly due to an imbalance in the number of moves made. Since white always starts, whenever white wins, they made 1 more move in that game than black. The only way to alleviate this is to modify the rules somewhat: black always makes the last move and if black manages to checkmate the white king with its final move after getting checkmated by white, the game is a draw.

You should see the odds of black winning vs. white winning even out.


When I try to translate this back to heroes, I get the combat mechanics of HoMM 4, where both creatures strike simultaneously. Is this what you intended or am I reading too much into it?

Anyway, in chess, while it is believed to be, it doesn't have to be an advantage to be the side to move. Some positions are lost, because the only move that doesn't lose, is not to move, which is illegal.
It is called Zugzwang, and one of the ideas behind black having the theoretical win is that the initial position is a zugzwang position, just too complicated for us to figure out as of yet.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 09, 2020 04:38 PM

Remember Capabalanca's time is aged theory. Therefore he created his chessboard and rule. But we can't agree with Capablanca. Chess amateur read his chess matter. And amateurs spread about white. Today, chess engine disagreed with Capablanca and amateurs. How? Both same engine version always played draw. You need over 3300 elo. The best human player has in about 2850 elo. If more than 400 points, it means he/she takes 90% win and 10% draw. Ok 3300-2850=450 or the best Stockfish 3495 elo, you count 3495-2850=645, so the best human player gets less draw opportunity. What then? Shut his/her a mind. Theory is done! But interesting different opinion.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 10, 2020 10:11 PM

You are reading too much into it, OhforfSake . I was not commenting on Heroes, I was purely writing about Chess.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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evildustructor
evildustructor


Adventuring Hero
posted September 10, 2020 10:16 PM

Zaio-Baio said:
Doomforge said:
HotA is pretty nicely balanced. Could use some tweaks to some towns, but nothing is garbage.

What i dont like about hota is that the final fights are usually one-sided and a big mess due to all the free army from creature banks. Getting 1 week earlier in the rich middle zone gives crushing advantage.
I would really like to see some templates without creature banks and with preset creature dwellings - lets say 1 dwelling of each tier 1-3 units. And with a middle zone that is not too much richer than the other zones.



these templates exist you know , like all mirror templates if you dont mind a creature bank here and there or templates without creature banks like three kingdoms! which makes it a non hota issue but a template popularity issue, the creature bank meta is present even in sod

and hota even comes with a template editor which makes it all even easier!!

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Mariusheroes3
Mariusheroes3

Tavern Dweller
posted September 24, 2020 08:59 PM
Edited by Mariusheroes3 at 21:01, 24 Sep 2020.

you both seems to not play chess more in your life.
There is many defendings that makes white to get confused and get advantage for black like for example russian defend.

And back to the topic what hota team has to change to make HoMM3 somehow "balanced" :

1. Earth magic - better got just that one, then all of the rest without it, too much 'has to got spells' to even think of not having it on mains.

2. Punishment for move - Cove, Fortress and Tower are not so much OP against the rest of the cities to make them pay 75% more off mp of the road.

3. Spells in mage guild - Many times i couldnt break on jc/jk because by rolling even 3 days in row i couldnt achieve slow.

4. Necropolis - or maybe just the necromancy that makes it too OP, its mostly banned on PVP games.

5. Tower - there is no even 1 good hero in this city, maybe Neela, but her scholar makes her not worth it. And there is no hero that gives us gremlins.

6. Creature banks - biggest griffin conservatory is strictly easier to do than the biggest experimental shop. Although you can still say its a draw, but the reward is no doubt better in griffons conservatory. Angels are better in every way than the titans.
Same goes for the dragon fly hive, you will always get some looses doing 4th hive unlike 4th wolf raider picket, and 12 cyclops is way too more value than 12 wyverns.


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 24, 2020 09:16 PM

You get Giants from experimental shop, not Titans.

Solmyr is awesome for a split strategy with CL. Neela can suck early game.

You have no movement penalty if you have only troops native to the terrain. You can also chain secondary heroes to carry non-native troops for your main hero.

Guess that was just a streak of bad luck, not getting Slow.

Yes, Earth Magic is a must.

Necropolis is OP bc of Necromancy.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Mariusheroes3
Mariusheroes3

Tavern Dweller
posted September 24, 2020 10:52 PM

Oh boy you seems not having an idea what youre talking about.
on templates like jc/jk you will always have movement penalty on tower/cove/fortress cause you got to gain enough army from the creature banks to fight 20 angels in first or second week.
And believe me i am using 8-10 heroes to keep the chain going, but still i cannot do the same amount of things that i could do on other cities.

And solmyr sucks, he is nothing compared to luna plus he is an alchemic.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 24, 2020 11:22 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 23:36, 24 Sep 2020.

I do play JC and JK too. Yes, you can chain heroes to prevent part of the movement penalty. And Solmyr is a Wizard and there are certain strategies to use his CL efficiently in banks. You also have Master Gremlins powerstack day 1 as well. Take into account the fact that Genie Lamps spawn just on Snow terrain, and they can be very useful if "farmed".

Thing is, the movement penalty won't be changed nor taken away.

And Luna is simply just unfair anyway, so there's not really any sense in comparing Solmyr (or any hero) with Luna. And CL can deal very much damage when you break (week 2 max) if you concentrate on raising his Spell Power and Air Magic (enough to help you defeat 20 Angels). Neela doesn't bring an early push anyway.

Edit: Yes, I'd personally like to have no penalty as well.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Mariusheroes3
Mariusheroes3

Tavern Dweller
posted September 24, 2020 11:59 PM

Neela is weak cause shes got scholar plus shes an alchemic, not beacuse an 'early push', tazar aswell got same speciality like her and you pick him on main in most of the games.

And as i said movement penalty is some terrible mistake and part of one of many unbalanced things as ive i mentioned before. If other cities can brake 1/1/5 you simply wont ever do that playing fortress/cove w/o wayfayer boots.

There are better magicians to pick instead like jeddite, grindan, alamar, aislin, deemer, gundula, and talking about early push noone will beat up the evocacius.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 25, 2020 12:04 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 00:07, 25 Sep 2020.

True, Eovacius's got some serious stuff going on.

I mostly pick Drakon because of the early Gnoll push, not Tazar. Creeping with Tazar and Fortress kinda sucks, at least on JC/JK. Armorer heroes really shine on larger maps which don't need anything such as an early push, though.

And well, the game was never designed with the bank meta in mind from the start, and it was thought to have the terrain penalty prevent invading enemies to move that fast (as well as because of actual conditions on the terrain).

The thing with Resurrection heroes is that you need to get Advanced Earth Magic first, and they don't have an offensive spell to start with for the push.

And well, with Solmyr, the main thing is placement. You gotta plan how your troops will be placed, what golem stacks, etc., so you can hit the most enemies possible. There was such a strategy for Hive, without hitting anything besides your stack of golems.
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