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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: In your opinion, what is the best form and system of government?
Thread: In your opinion, what is the best form and system of government? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted September 12, 2020 05:21 AM

Meritocratic Autocracy.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 12, 2020 08:31 PM
Edited by artu at 21:20, 12 Sep 2020.

Stevie said:
Gandalf196 said:
In your opinion, what is the best form and system of government?


What does history say? What civilizations were/are the most content and prosperous? It's one way to look at it.

Not exactly, it is one thing to rule a population of illiterate peasants (which is the historical case for almost all countries until post-industrial times), a complete different ball game to “govern” modern citizens with demands and awareness of their own legal rights.

Prosperity, also meant prosperity for a very small portion of the population, the rest only ate bread all winter, havent bathed for months, wear the same dirty clothes for weeks, lived an average life of 35-40 years, lost half their children to hunger and disease, I can keep on...

Today, any peoples would revolt to that. Monarchies (not symbolical ones where the royals have no political power such as U.K.) are not extinct,, they remain to exist in some of the underdevoloped countries and the results under modern circumstances are not something to envy.
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted September 12, 2020 08:55 PM

So, how much longer till Watermelon boy Erdogan crowns(turbans? or fezes?) himself as Sultan?

I mean the KGB midget is stalling long enough already.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 12, 2020 09:09 PM

There’s serious debate about whether he will step down willingly when his legal time is over in 2023. (Unless he wins again, of course, which is quite possible.) Erdogan has indeed, established a very authoritarian one-man regime, if not totalitarian de facto and whether his successors will return to parliamentary democracy or keep the presidency is also unclear. If he wins again in 2023, he’ll be too old in 2027 to try not to leave anyway.
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted September 13, 2020 01:35 PM

I notice that usually the first criticism of monarchies is about people now being mature enough to understand their rights.
That is a disingenuous and reductionist view of history, as it implies that republican governments are the only good governments in the world for educated and illuminated people.
It is funny how people conform to the socialist talking point of "real socialism has never been tried" when you confront them about the failings and flaws of republics and democracies.

The thing is, there is no government that stays afloat without the consent of the governed, that rings true in any age of mankind, yes, even when most of the population were filthy illiterate peasants.
The difference between then and now is not knowledge of rights, it's their number, them being codified, and value placed on these rights.

People rose up all the time in history against rulers who severely trampled upon their rights, ironically, your average guy of today reduces it to simple reaction to starvation.
The only time we Sicilians revolted due to starving was after the Italian unification, when we lost the only good thing the Bourbons did for us, state-owned lands given to farmers for highly reduced fees.
All the other times it had to do with the severely reduced Sicilian representation in government, starting from moving the court outside the island, denying Sicilian representatives their say on national politics and controlling Sicilian affairs from said outside court.
Yet Sicilians never asked for a republic (until last century, since nobody could figure out who could become king of Sicily), what they wanted was a rightful king, that would uphold the ancient binding laws of the kingdom and maintain the legitimacy of parliament and its representatives.

I personally drifted away from the idea of an absolute monarchy, as it is an inefficient, centralized, and most of all French way to rule, after all, it was also a betrayal of my heritage, of a proud 7 century old kingdom that from its inception had a parliament, and legitimized the crown through the parliament, just as the crown upheld the rights of parliament and its legitimacy.

Truth is, people are enamored with a twisted meritocratic principle in which since no one is better at birth, how could they obey a peer of them just because it has a royal title?
People are just not pragmatic enough, they'd rather have the seat of the judge be juggled between two opposing factions rather than have someone keeping the ship on course mediating the opposing parties.

And yes, this is most of all a critic of the Italian republican system, presidents of the republic are puppets to political powers, and thus never speak out against them.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 13, 2020 03:21 PM
Edited by artu at 16:00, 13 Sep 2020.

@Neraus

It is a simplification, of course, yet a functional enough and accurate simplification to reply to the notion that monarchies (real ones) are good because they were so prosperous in the past.

The point is, people who glorify monarchies are usually people who also glorify the past, ones who are not so happy about our modern times. Yet, when people think of the past, they usually think of palaces, kings, knights etc, things and people who were an extreme minority. That is similar to someone from the future picturing himself in the 21st century, but he is doing it as Bill Gates or Brad Pitt. Needless to say, 21st century capitalism is also wonderful, perfectly functional and must be heaven on earth if you are such a person but that is not the whole picture, is it.

And I’m not one of those who says “real socialism” hasnt been tried. The real socialism is the historically tested one, not the theory on paper. The way I look at it, socialist movements did function in developed countries with a strong middle-class and democratic tradition. They became the “anti-thesis” of 19th century capitalism and nerfed it into a different system with union rights, no child labor, humane work hours and conditions, insurance, rights to retirement pay, annual vacation rights etc. In more tyrannic countries, socialism just resulted in a different kind of tyranny. It all depends on the infrastructure once again, Marx was right to focus on that and in the long term, he is remembered as one of the founding fathers of sociology, not the prophet of communism.
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted September 13, 2020 04:11 PM

Never said you were a "true socialism has never been tried" kind of guy lol, that wasn't even addressed at you specifically, but something I noticed in people, their immediate retort about the flaws of democracy is: "democracy is ideally the best system", which is a similar argument to the above.

Anyway, I just took a phrase and decided to expand on it, since I notice it's really common in people to just discard an idea because of people in the past not knowing better or people being enamored with some sort of golden vision. Kinda hate that argument, especially when one can make a case from a purely pragmatic standpoint, and not just because King Louis XIV built Versailles or something of the sort.

Would have put a @ if I wanted to argue about the prosperity argument.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.

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Trogdor
Trogdor


Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
posted September 13, 2020 07:28 PM

Kipshasz said:
So, how much longer till Watermelon boy Erdogan crowns(turbans? or fezes?) himself as Sultan?

I mean the KGB midget is stalling long enough already.


Knowing Turdogan, he's probably already done that and kept the whole thing hidden from everyone but his inner circle.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 19, 2020 01:08 PM

Enlightened technocracy.

Helios has spoken.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 01, 2021 02:52 PM

Came across this today and the part Jordan Peterson quotes from the book reminded me of my objection here:

Link
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted March 14, 2021 06:51 PM

Kipshasz said:
Stevie said:
Gandalf196 said:
In your opinion, what is the best form and system of government?


What does history say? What civilizations were/are the most content and prosperous? It's one way to look at it.


The answer you're looking for is... Monarchies.


Precisely. In my opinion, the Principality of Liechtenstein has the best system in the world.
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted December 28, 2022 01:59 PM

Call me foolish and/or hopelessly romantic, but I think a constitutional monarchy works best.

A king doesn't have to have absolute power, he should be a figurehead for the people with some minimal authority. You may say hereditary rule has its flaws but replacing your leader every four, five or six years by popular vote isn't that great either. To me.
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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted December 28, 2022 10:27 PM
Edited by phe at 22:44, 28 Dec 2022.

Drakon-Deus said:
Call me foolish and/or hopelessly romantic, but I think a constitutional monarchy works best.

A king doesn't have to have absolute power, he should be a figurehead for the people with some minimal authority. You may say hereditary rule has its flaws but replacing your leader every four, five or six years by popular vote isn't that great either. To me.

Best person should be a king...a king should have maximal authority...figurehead costs...maximal efficiency, no fake separation of powers, no influence of bad people, outdated technologically backward industry (based on oil, energy, electricity, so far transport...) and non-productive people of red-tape and military; basic honesty, life, freedom, justice, non-living at expense of others are better than constitution...anyway monarchs are responsible under the Heavens and history....

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CountBezuhoff
CountBezuhoff


Supreme Hero
Nihil sub sole novum
posted December 28, 2022 10:46 PM

A constitutional monarchy with the monarch as a figurehead would be no different than a regular republic with a president as a figurehead.

Except you wouldn't be able to kick the monarch out that easily if he is a knobhead.

The Count
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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted December 28, 2022 10:56 PM
Edited by phe at 23:03, 28 Dec 2022.

CountBezuhoff said:
A constitutional monarchy with the monarch as a figurehead would be no different than a regular republic with a president as a figurehead.

Except you wouldn't be able to kick the monarch out that easily if he is a knobhead.

The Count

we have oligarchy of similar knobheads and they aren't easy to kick out...surveillance...mind control...no freedom of speach...no democratic process of getting rid of them...who gave bad people equality, opinion rights, suffrage and possiblity to hold office or to be a candidate for a politician...
now we have diseases, disasters and wars made on purpose to keep us busy somewhere else...

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted December 29, 2022 05:09 AM

@Phe: I would be fine with an absolute monarch but only if he was the best for this. A wise king I would gladly follow.
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ArdentWyrm
ArdentWyrm


Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
posted December 29, 2022 08:08 PM
Edited by ArdentWyrm at 20:09, 29 Dec 2022.

an absolute monarch like King Theoden from lord of the rings would do.
but other wise this would do:
Galaad said:
Semi-direct actual democracy like they have in Switzerland.

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Torment is blinding. It lies. Its pollution steals my sense. It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.
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baronus
baronus


Legendary Hero
posted December 29, 2022 09:42 PM

Monarchy is natural system even in biology sense... It start from patriarchat which is natural form of family. So all works fine and simlutanously.
Democracy is a patology as we seen.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 29, 2022 10:34 PM

Yup, because patriarchy and monarchy have worked so well in the past and still work wonders. Like, in Saudi Arabia where we have both.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted January 17, 2023 08:43 PM



Queen Margrethe II and Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark at the funeral of King Constantine II (Queen Anne-Marie, the sister of Denmark's Queen Margrethe was married to the late Greek King)
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