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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Dropping Resistance is a logical falacy
Thread: Dropping Resistance is a logical falacy This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
pizdabol
pizdabol


Hired Hero
posted September 21, 2020 09:36 PM
Edited by pizdabol at 21:40, 21 Sep 2020.

Revolut1oN said:
Are you high? Resistance was totally broken, either useless or completely imba. Now Interference is extremely strong, every good player in PVP takes that skill once Earth l/air and logistics are secured. Its stupid strong, yet not imba.

Thats what I call a good design. Hating Interference and believing its bad is just a testimony of one being noob, playing 12-month long compstomps vs AI. Thats nothing to be ashamed of, but forcing it down other peoples' throat is beyond stupid. Play your own noobish ways (you can even turn resistance on back in editor and in template settings) but dont try to ruin competitive aspect of the game with clueless newbie rants.


Wow

- How passive-agressive do you want this to come ou...
- YAS!!!!

dipsnow

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted September 21, 2020 09:39 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 21:43, 21 Sep 2020.

@Phoenix4ever

Yup. Although I feel more like Interference was made to milk some damage out of the spammed Implosion in PvP games (but bruh, a single Mass Prot. from Earth can turn the tides of the battle in your favor; I'm still perplexed how the guys on HotA DS didn't know/use the "trick").

So yeah, basically, Interference is there just to "clog" the Implosion and/or Chain Lightning by a bit.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 21, 2020 09:48 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 22:22, 21 Sep 2020.

Quote:
Interference also does'nt help vs Berserk


Yes, another very valid point that I basically missed, thanks for that

Some spells such as Berserk, Hypnotize, have a *fixed* duration - Resistance allows you to, well, resist them, while Interference doesn't.

Specially relevant with Berserk since there is absolutely nothing in the spell affected by spell power, and area Berserk is extremely powerful.

Extra magic skills like Expert Fire (all except Sorcery) also only affect the base damage of spells - not the "spell power dependent" extra damage - thus bypassing interference completely, but Not Resistance.

Plus another thing... Enchanter mass spells, and creature cast spells in general. In my experience Resistance works against many of these. Interference obviously works against none of them, since it only modifies enemy heroes, not creatures.

This means interference is likely to work *only once in the entire game*, since normal 1v1 multiplayer games tend to get basically ended by one big hero vs hero battle. Resistance helps you not only there, but also getting there and against spellcaster units. Interference - just a dead skill slot.

PS: Creatures and mechanics that synergize and use Resistance:

- Dwarves 20% natural + 20% skill = 40% ( +20% Unicorn = 60% )
- Battle Dwarves 40% natural + 20% skill = 60% ( +20% Unicorn = 80%)
- Unicorn 20% aura + 20% skill = 40%
- Crystal Dragons 20% natural + 20% skill = 40% ( +20% Unicorn = 60% )
Add to this all resistance artifacts

60% dwarf + unicorn has a 40% chance to get affected by enemy spell - 20% with Expert Resistance. As such, Expert Resistance is cutting its chances to get affected by half - 50%, not nominal 20%. Similar cumulative effect in other aura-affected and resistance-posessing creatures, and artifacts.
Expert Interference has less than 30% effect (due to base damages, curse, extra duration artifacts etc.)

Creatures and mechanics that synergize with interference:

- Nope
- No
- Nothing here
- Nobody

Negative synergies: All the previously mentioned (together with interference weaker than each working separately, since you have a lower chance than before to deflect a spell weaker than before)
Removed existing positive synergies: All the previously mentioned with Resistance skill. All the previously mentioned with Resistance artifacts. Replacing synergies: None.
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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2020 11:01 PM

Due to the random nature of h3 (and the popular multiplayer templates ) its really hard to have balanced final fights. Usually one of the players has crushing advantage because he managed to get mass slow faster and broke to the rich middle zone first. In the middle he got 5 hives, 5 cons and 3 utopias and then rushed his poor opponent. Both players are of equal skill but one of them got deservedly crushed because his hero wasn't offered earth magic at lvl 4.

And in the rare occasions when both players got equal creeping tools to break the guards early there are skills like resistance to make sure that the most skilled player will win

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2020 11:15 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 23:20, 21 Sep 2020.

@Nimo

I first was going to make a quite longer post, but realized we're never going to agree from this, so I think there's no really point of contiuining it from here. And I'm not a Hota developer, and they don't exactly spell out their reasonings in these kind of changes in public, so I couldn't even answer some of your questions anyway.

But you were actually right, the math was wrong. Sorry about that.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 22, 2020 07:13 AM

Nevermind, I appreciate your honesty at least. There's also sentimentality on both sides. While I acknowledge I do hold a grudge because Rampart is my favourite town from childhood, and resistance is a key part of it, I also think the argument for resistance as a balanced and well designed skill is rationally much stronger than the one for interference.

That being said, Interference doesn't suck as completely as I imply for hyperbole. I would be OK with adding interference and the interference specialist as a gameplay option for people who like it. I also recognize graphically the icons are well made and fit with H3 atmosphere (even if the mechanic itself doesn't). To resume, I woudn't object to it existing if it didn't completely ban and erase resistance in the process, which, as noted, also weakens preexisting units and removes well designed synergistic strategies, a staple of any good game.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted September 22, 2020 11:35 AM

Resistance isn't completely banned and erased though, it can always be enabled again. And well, just the default HotA templates and maps have it disabled, as well as any new map you create.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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batoonike
batoonike


Known Hero
posted November 19, 2020 09:09 AM

Is anyone actually struggling against spellcasters? I always thought removing resistance was to buff the generally incredibly underpowered spellcaster heroes compared to might heroes. Mostly because might heroes have easier time clearing the map.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted April 01, 2021 05:17 PM

batoonike said:
Is anyone actually struggling against spellcasters? I always thought removing resistance was to buff the generally incredibly underpowered spellcaster heroes compared to might heroes. Mostly because might heroes have easier time clearing the map.


The answer to that is buffing spellcasting, not introducing yet another underwhelming and/or useless skill. There are plenty of those already in vanilla h3 (that hota didn't fix), like Eagle Eye.
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Winston
Winston


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2021 10:35 PM

If you followed through to its logical conclusion the confusingly misguided mindset that HotA developers have of re-balancing the game for their esports focused mod, removing things they don't like because of feelings of unfairness or uselessness, then you would end up making a completely new game than Heroes 3 after enough iterations. HoMM3 is and always has been inherently unbalanced and it is so interwoven into so many parts of the game that to change it you have to remove artifacts entirely, heroes entirely, change stats and costs, and replace entire skills as HotA has done. In the end, the only thing that remains similar to HoMM3 is that some of the same graphics are still used and the general turn based gameplay remains.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted April 01, 2021 11:45 PM

Well, we already have that. It's called WoG

Though not even WoG removed resistance
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fred79
fred79


Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 02, 2021 06:13 AM

what did WoG do, besides buff weaker secondary skills? imo, they did a great job. if anything, they helped the game(even the additions i don't use that i don't like, can be disabled. so effectively, they didn't hurt the game at all).

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Winston
Winston


Adventuring Hero
posted April 02, 2021 08:35 PM

I wanted to use Wog/Era but the last time I tried it crashed my game with the advanced classes mod . Stability seems to be a problem with Wog.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted April 02, 2021 08:44 PM

fred79 said:
what did WoG do, besides buff weaker secondary skills? imo, they did a great job. if anything, they helped the game(even the additions i don't use that i don't like, can be disabled. so effectively, they didn't hurt the game at all).


Oh, I didn't say "wog is bad". In fact, WoG changes are truly optional, not like HoTA "fake optional" (which isn't sanctioned for their intention, online games) and they disable plugins in the launcher/loader.

But it is undoubtable in many things WoG goes too far with not enough thought, have you ever played "wogification" of a map? It is a mess.
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Rerryr
Rerryr


Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
posted April 02, 2021 08:53 PM
Edited by Rerryr at 21:00, 02 Apr 2021.

Winston said:
I wanted to use Wog/Era but the last time I tried it crashed my game with the advanced classes mod . Stability seems to be a problem with Wog.


I will send you ten bucks if you can find a reproducible crash with a clean ERA 3 installation and ACM.

Please always report issues so we can improve the quality.

@Nimostar
I agree with wogification. In my opinion the most replacement of objects should be turned of by default, at least for new players.
Later when you know what you are getting you can enable more options that you like.

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fred79
fred79


Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 02, 2021 09:26 PM

i have most settings turned off in WoG by default. i only run beneficial stuff, ban garbage/op spells, etc. WoG objects are active, as well as mithril, but nothing is replaced. the best of WoG is easy to set up.

that said, i've been having crashes happen daily(and this is new), and new crashes everyday, so i had to upgrade to era 3. if i can't play my own maps, that's gonna be a problem. hopefully era 3 fixes that. if not, i'm dead in the water. no sense modding jack squat if you can't play with your additions.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 02, 2021 10:37 PM

Revolut1oN said:
Hating Interference and believing its bad is just a testimony of one being noob, playing 12-month long compstomps vs AI. Thats nothing to be ashamed of, but forcing it down other peoples' throat is beyond stupid. Play your own noobish ways (you can even turn resistance on back in editor and in template settings) but dont try to ruin competitive aspect of the game with clueless newbie rants.


Chill... I don't think one rant thread about Interference is going to ruin Hota, the crew do what they want and it's always been that way.

... H3 is not an esport and never was intended to be. There is a competitive niche and Hota is aiming at it and from what I gather most competitive players are happy with the changes.

On a larger spectrum though, I do believe the imbalance aspects of the series always contributed to the charm and overall success. Unfair is fun, obviously when it goes in your favor.

pizdabol said:
dipsnow


Insults are forbidden in this forum. Please have a read to the Code of Conduct before posting, thanks.
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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted April 03, 2021 11:41 AM
Edited by Sav at 11:42, 03 Apr 2021.

I won't interfere in the discussion, but I'd like to note that we've already spelled our view on the issue:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43966&PID=1474718#focus

That post is old, but it is still relevant in most of aspects. I'll just make some update and clarification:

The Interference now is a completely separate skill; both Resistance and Interference can be enabled at the same time (just as it was planned at the time of that post).

In that post the part about Interference solving in-game problems and being picked on level-ups is written very cautiously. Now (after adding separate skill with another set of artifacts) I am much more confident that Interference is pretty useful skill and does a good job for "Army vs Spells" balance.

Skill balance was not the reason of changing Resistance, it is rather a side effect. The reason was "Army vs Spells" balance and the fact that the skill as is had become broken for online games (much worse than morale/luck and other randomness) after Orb of Inhibition and Recanter Cloak were banned.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 03, 2021 11:32 PM

Sav said:

The Interference now is a completely separate skill; both Resistance and Interference can be enabled at the same time (just as it was planned at the time of that post).

I would actually like to add Interference as the 29th skill, but Thorgrim would still be available and heroes would start with Resistance, not Interference. I already allow both Resistance and Interference artifacts.
The problem with also enabling Interference is classes have different chances to learn it. Rangers have the highest chance, so they are also most likely to get worse skill rolls.

Removing Resistance just makes stuff like Mass Slow, Blind and Berserk even stronger. Interference does not help VS Berserk at all.

If I were a multiplayer, I would pick Fire Magic every time and go for Berserk, without Resistance, Recanter's Cloak, Orb of Inhibition or mind spell immunity from Badge of Courage, there would be very little ways to protect against it.
Perhaps the whole goal was to buff Berserk and Fire Magic...

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