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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3: Intelligence skill
Thread: Heroes 3: Intelligence skill This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 13, 2020 10:00 AM

Poll Question:
Heroes 3: Intelligence skill

Where do you want Expert Intelligence at?

Responses:
50% (HotA)
60%
70%
75%
80%
90%
100% (SoD)
Other (write a comment)
View Results!

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 14, 2020 10:14 PM

Come on guys, we can use some more votes here.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted October 14, 2020 10:52 PM

I doubt there are much more than 7 people around here to vote, from what I've noticed.
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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 15, 2020 12:05 AM

So, here's your problem with Intelligence: it's an objectively better version of another skill (Mysticism). So what you do with it ultimately depends on what you do with Mysticism. Ideally, you'd just trash Intelligence and buff Mysticism since it's the more mechanically interesting of the two (Intelligence is literally just a straight buff to a core stat - something I'm not particularly fond of).

But, assuming you don't go that route, look at where Mysticism is and ask yourself which of the two skills you'd rather have. Lower Intelligence until the answer becomes "I'm not sure".

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 15, 2020 07:44 AM

BTB actually that's exactly what I did or rather HotA did.
I think Intelligence and Mysticism are pretty equal in HotA. There are however many things that ruin Mysticism, such as wells, Mana Vortices, Magic Springs, Altar of Mana and Wizard's Well and for a town defender Mysticism is completely useless.
So if I had to ditch one, it would be Mysticism.
I feel the same with Pathfinding, there are many things that ruins it, so sometimes I wonder why it is even a skill at all.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted October 15, 2020 10:01 AM

I would rather make Mysticism as reducing mana cost for spells + regeneration of mana.

It would be much worth for hero classes which doesnt get much of knowledge.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 15, 2020 10:47 AM
Edited by PandaTar at 10:48, 15 Oct 2020.

Phoenix4ever said:
There are however many things that ruin Mysticism, such as wells, Mana Vortices, Magic Springs, Altar of Mana and Wizard's Well and for a town defender Mysticism is completely useless.

And in a map devoided of such objects, Mysticism gets extremely useful though, whilst mana pool alone (Intelligence along with it) won't be really as much effective as it seems, because at one moment, the hero will run out of mana, especially if you don't want or can't be going to a fro your town constantly. So, there are 'ifs' to both sides of the coin.

So what zmudziak22 proposes in the post above seems very effective, both for mana pool concerns and recovery, also encompassing the usefulness for defending sieges (because it might not differ much having a lot of spell points or spending less spell points to cast them). Even better if it is possible to add an effect of recovering 1 spell point per round during battles as a default minimum value.

The skill Intelligence could, nonetheless, be designed upon another niche or redesigned completely, as far as modding limitations go, that is.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 15, 2020 12:22 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:22, 15 Oct 2020.

I also like zmudziaks idea, but we must think carefully about how it could be implemented.
If Mass Slow/Haste suddenly started to cost 2 mana or Blind 4 mana, we would have broken the game even more. So perhaps a percentage based mana reduction or the idea of recovering mana while in battle also seems nice, as that would also benefit town defenders.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 15, 2020 12:32 PM

But apparently, from a lot of other threads discussing Magic, there is a problem with spell point cost with these Mass spells (and other 'breaking' ones, right? I think their cost must be tweaked first, and only then, Mysticism perks. Or it could mean rework upon both things that never get decided, you see.

I don't know how difficult to mod something is, but I think that some skills could also work in synergy or even directly with another (beside their base functions). Like Mysticism having its own effect, but it had a nuance when a Magic School skill was learned, for example. Same for other combinations, such as Logistics with Pathfinding, Eagle Eye with Learning (just random stuff, don't take it literally, hohohoho, just for illustration).
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 15, 2020 12:44 PM

Yeah Mass Slow/Haste could easily be more expensive, maybe also Mass Cure, Dispel, Bless, Shield and Stone Skin.

I like the idea of "skill combos", though it should only be minor effects imo.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 15, 2020 01:06 PM

phoenix4ever said:

I like the idea of "skill combos", though it should only be minor effects imo.


Sure, just complementary, not dependable or too influencial. I particularly don't like skills that "grow" rather unused later in game. Like Eagle Eye or Scout. So, I feel like comboing skills might provide some answers.

But that's a personal opinion.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted October 15, 2020 01:23 PM

If all Mass spells were split like Heroes 2, 4 and 5, then it would be useful, as Mass spells could cost 2x more then basic ones.

Most of Mass Spells(Bless, Haste, Slow, Curse etc) would have to moved to level 3, as now it is cheap to get Slow + Expert Earth in week 1.

Usually you need Blind + Animate Dead/Ressurection for no losses and mass slow to control battlefield movement.


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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 15, 2020 02:30 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
There are however many things that ruin Mysticism, such as wells, Mana Vortices, Magic Springs, Altar of Mana and Wizard's Well and for a town defender Mysticism is completely useless.


I would submit that these things are the problem in that case, not Mysticism >.>

Wizard's Well, at the very least, is quite fixable.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted October 15, 2020 04:12 PM

Phoenix4ever said:

I think Intelligence and Mysticism are pretty equal in HotA. There are however many things that ruin Mysticism, such as wells, Mana Vortices, Magic Springs, Altar of Mana and Wizard's Well and for a town defender Mysticism is completely useless.



Not really equal, Intelligence is still clearly better. Mysticism isn't bad as it used to, thou, and can sometimes allow player to do things a bit faster than without it. Btw, the town defendee claim is incorrect, mysticism is ofc useful for the defender, you just have to play with blue or other non-red colour.

PandaTar said:
Even better if it is possible to add an effect of recovering 1 spell point per round during battles as a default minimum value.



While it's a cool idea, there's the problem player having access to pretty much endless mana: slow/blind the last enemy creature, or simply kite endlessly, and you will eventually have enought mana to ressurrect all the troops that died in the battle.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 15, 2020 04:25 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 16:27, 15 Oct 2020.

Hm, true. So, no mana recovery in battle, unless ...

Puuuuhohohohoho

... an effect that triggered only once, after you completely depleted your spell points (or got it down to 1-5%, perhaps dictated by skill level as well), a random % of it would be replenished. Talking in numbers and hypothetically, let's use 5, 10, 15% maximum cap, with a 1 mana minimum cap.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 15, 2020 04:31 PM

Hourglass said:
While it's a cool idea, there's the problem player having access to pretty much endless mana: slow/blind the last enemy creature, or simply kite endlessly, and you will eventually have enought mana to ressurrect all the troops that died in the battle.


This is another reason I prefer Mysticism to Intelligence. Mysticism allows heroes to be more free with their spellcasting while still keeping a tighter limit on the number of spells that can be cast in any single battle.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 15, 2020 06:07 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:07, 15 Oct 2020.

Hourglass said:

Btw, the town defendee claim is incorrect, mysticism is ofc useful for the defender, you just have to play with blue or other non-red colour.


I'm sorry what? Staying inside a town with Mage Guild, will make you recover all mana, it has nothing to do with colour.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted October 15, 2020 07:10 PM

BTB said:

This is another reason I prefer Mysticism to Intelligence. Mysticism allows heroes to be more free with their spellcasting while still keeping a tighter limit on the number of spells that can be cast in any single battle.


Well, from design point of view I prefer Mysticism, as it has a bit more depth than simply multiplying your knowledge. But from gameplay aspective, Intelligence makes more sense: there are multiple ways of recovering mana and intelligence gives you clear advantage to battles. Even from "which one does give you more mana overall"-perspective, even in Hota's mysticism takes a week to regain 100 mana, something which is quite easy to obtain with Intelligence. Over the course of the game thou, it's very like for mysticism yo give more mana, but it's just so easy to stop by a town to regain mana every now and then.


phoenix4ever said:

I'm sorry what? Staying inside a town with Mage Guild, will make you recover all mana, it has nothing to do with colour.


Oh, I thought you especially meant a town without MG, with a mysticism hero inside.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 15, 2020 07:56 PM

Hourglass said:
Well, from design point of view I prefer Mysticism, as it has a bit more depth than simply multiplying your knowledge. But from gameplay aspective, Intelligence makes more sense: there are multiple ways of recovering mana and intelligence gives you clear advantage to battles. Even from "which one does give you more mana overall"-perspective, even in Hota's mysticism takes a week to regain 100 mana, something which is quite easy to obtain with Intelligence. Over the course of the game thou, it's very like for mysticism yo give more mana, but it's just so easy to stop by a town to regain mana every now and then.


So, think of it this way. You know how we all love Logistics. No matter what kind of hero you are, extra movement points are always a good thing to have, to the point we will choose that skill over any other. Mysticism is essentially a net gain of movement points in the form of the savings from not having to constantly go find towns or wells to recharge your spell points.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted October 15, 2020 09:35 PM

BTB said:

So, think of it this way. You know how we all love Logistics. No matter what kind of hero you are, extra movement points are always a good thing to have, to the point we will choose that skill over any other. Mysticism is essentially a net gain of movement points in the form of the savings from not having to constantly go find towns or wells to recharge your spell points.


The problem there is that the usefulness of Mysticism will run out in the long run, and even in the early game you always have access to poor man's TP. The window of "mysticism's time of shining" is actually rather short, regardless of the way game is played. And while Mysticism does regen your mana, it's really only 15 points, so if you're planning to "spam" certain spell such as ressurrection, DD, dmg spell, etc, you will still run out of mana regardless of the bonus regeneration. Therefore, a visit to a town is still needed every now and then, likely as often as without Mysticism. Also, town portal makes regaining mana extremely easy, likely without losing tempo or even area presence.

Intelligence on the other hand allows player to have mana advantage, so he will not only have more options, but also more gunpowder in general. Against another player, the player with more mana will likely be able to summon more elementals, for example.

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