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| Thread: Bron: The most unique hero? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 11:39 PM |
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Edited by heymlich at 23:41, 28 Jan 2023.
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artu said:
But a town portal specialist would be overkill.
Or a resurrection specialist 
What I'm trying to say: There would just be a "no high level creature specialists" rule, in addition to the no diplo and no logistics and no Alamar and the likes.
But generally, I agree with you.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 28, 2023 11:40 PM |
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@artu Well besides starting with the spell, spell specialists also improve their spell in some way, so how would you improve Earthquake or Town Portal?
I suppose Earthquake could hit another section of wall or perhaps do double damage, but how would you improve TP? (A hero starting with TP would be pretty insane, give him Earth Magic as well and it's GG.  )
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 11:40 PM |
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Sure, a Black Knight is better than a couple of Zombies, but a 4-7 Basilisks are better than a few Lizardmen as well.
It would have to be tested whether you'd have a decisive advantage with a Black Knight as opposed to other options. I may be wrong since I'm out of touch a bit, but isn't Necro forbidden in competetive play anyway? Galthran? The Necromancy Specialists?
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2023 11:44 PM |
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Edited by heymlich at 23:47, 28 Jan 2023.
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JollyJoker said:
Sure, a Black Knight is better than a couple of Zombies, but a 4-7 Basilisks are better than a few Lizardmen as well.
It would have to be tested whether you'd have a decisive advantage with a Black Knight as opposed to other options. I may be wrong since I'm out of touch a bit, but isn't Necro forbidden in competetive play anyway? Galthran? The Necromancy Specialists?
While Necro sure is strong, they don't have an easy early game. If you're not careful your losses are comparable to your gains, making it hard to acquire a critical mass of skeletons. A single black knight will totally turn the situation around.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 28, 2023 11:51 PM |
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@JJ
Dont know, my cup of tea is playing single player random maps with my own settings. I have zero idea about tournament rules. 
@phoenix4ever
Well, to start with Town Portal would be better enough than magic arrow with increasing damage but I guess, if you want it to progress somehow, if you can code it, you can make it cost less spell points as you level up. That would be overmassacare though!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 29, 2023 12:55 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:59, 29 Jan 2023.
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because basilisk are better than lizardmen then black knight is the same? hahaha. Even a single black knight is better than 4 basilisks, with 120 health for a single unit that will not die to basically any attack, and much higher stats.
Plus in the strongest town with the most special power instead of one of the weakest with no specials.
Oh man, you really are too far gone.
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One thing is that I would, for sure, give Earth Elemental specialists their Earth Elementals. They are absolutely terrible as level 5, and no surprise since they were designed as level 4 (they have stats comparable to Basilisk, but way slower and with worse special). Even then, they are unbearably ponderous and will stop your army to a crawl.
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As for town portal, the specialty could be just using less movement points.
IMO, if Town Portal had *MUCH* higher movement point use, it could be rather balanced (such as taking the whole minimum movement for the day at base)
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Never changing = never improving
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2023 01:41 AM |
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NimoStar said:
IMO, if Town Portal had *MUCH* higher movement point use, it could be rather balanced (such as taking the whole minimum movement for the day at base)
Just make it take all remaining movement points. That will prevent the plyer from making surprise attacks following a teleport.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 29, 2023 03:27 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
@artu Well besides starting with the spell, spell specialists also improve their spell in some way, so how would you improve Earthquake or Town Portal?
I had an idea for that, the hero uses less movement per level, to a point where he even earns movement from using it.
That would be a magic hero to rival Crag and Tazar OPness.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2023 03:33 AM |
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heymlich said:
Just make it take all remaining movement points. That will prevent the plyer from making surprise attacks following a teleport.
What would be the difference between advanced TP and expert TP?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2023 04:13 AM |
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Is there a need for a difference?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2023 04:24 AM |
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Edited by artu at 04:25, 29 Jan 2023.
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All spells have basic advanced and expert levels. Besides, zero movement would be nerfing it too much. They tried that in one of the latter games and it sucked.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2023 06:52 AM |
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Edited by heymlich at 06:54, 29 Jan 2023.
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artu said:
All spells have basic advanced and expert levels.
Most damage spells get a laughable increase in damage. No one will pick a magic school for this. Most Buffs/debuffs have the three useless levels and the basically mandatory expert level. You rarely cast them without the corresponding magic school. So why does town portal need four distinct levels?
About the zero movement: I didn't play the later parts. It just seemed to be a good idea. Maybe it wasn't 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 29, 2023 08:33 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 08:34, 29 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
. Most Buffs/debuffs have the three useless levels and the basically mandatory expert level. You rarely cast them without the corresponding magic school. So why does town portal need four distinct levels?
Town Portal is like Buffs/Debuffs
Anyways, the real reason is tiering the spells is good design and not tiering it is bad.
The magic skills have to justify their existence, given that in H3 you can cast all spells anyways regardless if you know the magic type or not, this comes in the form of damage buffs/nerfs, bless/curse effect changes and/or mass versions, and movement changes in things like Dimension Door, Fly, Water Walk and Town Portal.
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Never changing = never improving
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 29, 2023 08:39 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:39, 29 Jan 2023.
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@heymlich
Yes, it's a technicality in some cases. Not when it comes to adventure spells though. By principle, a spell has to get better with school progression.
I mean, I was the one who said starting with Town Portal is huge enough all by itself in practice. But if you need it to have some form of conventional progression, advanced and expert need to be different, even if slightly different.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2023 08:51 AM |
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NimoStar said:
because basilisk are better than lizardmen then black knight is the same? hahaha. Even a single black knight is better than 4 basilisks, with 120 health for a single unit that will not die to basically any attack, and much higher stats.
See, that's why I think you are arguing dishonestly, because AGAIN you changed what I say. I said 4-7 Basilisks, which is the start of this thread. Not FOUR. 7 Basilisks will be a tough ask. Black Knight has only 5 more attack and defence and does 15-30 damage. Basiliks do 6-10 damage. The Basiliks cost a lot more gold, but they can be lost piecemeal. Both would come with a stack of L1 in addition, and I'm sure good players will handle things just as well with 7 Basilisks. 4 would be obviously notnearly as good.
That's why you'd have to test this, surely.
But in SP it would hardly matter, since you don't play random maps and templates anyway and do itz for the fun of it.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 29, 2023 09:01 AM |
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Edited by Ghost at 09:03, 29 Jan 2023.
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5 pegasi vs 1 unicorn.. If First Aid.. Final Magic Arrow! All players know.. But some doesn't buy a First Aid..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 29, 2023 09:37 AM |
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When gnoll vs medusa queen.. If not luck and morale damage, and then hero casts Magic Arrow.. Depend on power, and hero bought First Aid. Only scout vs neutral.
The same thing War Unicorn vs 25 lizards.. First Aid skill helps scout hero without Magic Arrow..
All famous Troll vs 7 medusas..
Etc
You becomes understand the game, if you use a First Aid..
So you know useless medusas tried to kill gnoll.. Much better is stronger creature..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 29, 2023 10:23 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 10:27, 29 Jan 2023.
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Quote:
I said 4-7 Basilisks, which is the start of this thread. Not FOUR. 7 Basilisks will be a tough ask.
Read yourself. You said that starting level 6 creatures would be 1-2.
One black knight is already strong as 6 basilisks at the very least in stack vs combat, considering atk and def difference and that basilisks will die in the middle of combat while the knight won't. Two Black Knight are like 12 or more basilisks.
Anyways, your point is moot since the beggining since you are recognizing that balance matters.
Every single other player has seen that strong level 6 starters such as knight and naga are OP
And this is not just "compare them with basilisks if they fight to the death", but rather, see how much larger the advantage that the player gets with this unit, to get lossless, perfect battles against guards on the map. A basilisk 35 health, 11 def (stone golems already have 30 hp with 10 defense, and all tower heroes have them) can't be compared to a unit with 120 health and 16 def to tank hits without deaths, period.
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2023 11:33 AM |
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Not period.
The heroes are not balanced anyway. Not with regard to their skills. Not with regard to their starting creatures. There just IS NO balance there. So to talk about "balance matters" you'd have to change heroes in a way that it would matter a lot less than it does which hero you start with AND which hero(es) you'll find in the Tavern in week 1.
It wouldn't have to be complete total balance, but there shouldn't be any big NOOO or YESSSS when picking a random hero to start with, and there also shouldn't be a NOOOO followed by a Thank god after a look into the Tavern.
Of course that doesn't matter in SP. But what about competitive play? Suppose you have two equally good players, and suppose they play random heroes (and random towns) - do you think the match could already be decided on day 1?
If you answer with yes, then you admit that "balance" here is just a question of agreeing to some rules that paste over the fact that the game isn't balanced, a matter of DEGREE.
Considering the L6 (levels 4 and 5 seem to be no problem), it seems to be a question of Black Knights and Cavaliers where even 1 (and I would definitely NOT advise for them to have more than 1; 1-2 means, that I could envision 2 Wyvern and 2 Cyclopses, but the rest should be happy with one) would be a big thing. I might add that the two specialists in question have good skills as well, so they would probably fall into the Tazar/Crag Hack category which has actually a lot of candidates, like a lot of Necro heroes, Meteor Shower guys, logistics specialists, Diplomacy fraeks, Ivor and so on.
So what's the big deal if there are two more heroes in that category that wouldn't be used? It would just add new narratives - instead of Hack this and Tazar that you might suddenly hear Clancy finishing map X in record time. Bummer.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 29, 2023 03:52 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
instead of Hack this and Tazar that you might suddenly hear Clancy finishing map X in record time. Bummer.
Now that would actually be interesting.
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