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| Thread: Ultimate: OP Warden replacement/rework poll (old Wapwort slot) | |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2023 09:41 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:44, 05 Oct 2023.
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Poll Question:
Ultimate: OP Warden replacement/rework poll (old Waspwort slot)
I didn't like the Waspwort design much, so I replaced them for the "Warden", an autumn recolor of an infamous expansion campaign hero. I made them with four abilities after trying different designs:
- Ranged
- Ranged First Strike
- First Strike
- No Range Penalty
Also I replaced the old Waspwort projectile for a more appropiate one.
There is only a problem: As people told me, wardens are OP. And unlike with other custom creatures (Harpy Shamans, Mechanical Dragons)... turns out, they were right
(ULTIMATE leprechauns are semi-ranged and have Block)
So I turn to the community (sans trolls, they were removed from the mod anyways  ) to decide what should we do with the wardens
There is different options:
Rework them but keep their flavor and graphics?
Replace them for a changed Waspwort? (We used to have a green Waspwort in the days of old)
Add a new creature from publicly released sprites, such as the Dryad?
Reuse another hero but this time as a spellcaster-like creature?
Reintroduce a deleted creature in Nature mode? (Gargoyle/Venom Spawn)
This poll may help me gauge public opinion, but we will see...
Also hearing reasonable and constructive arguments about the topic
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Never changing = never improving
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 10:25 PM |
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But we have h4zero system so we can have both. You can replace h4zero placeholder units by good ones like it. So I dont see a problem. Of course if its to powerfull should be ballanced. Shooters in H4 are more powerfull than H3 because you need more turns to block. In H3 usually 2-3 in H4 3-4. So its global problem. Of course excluding centaurs and orcs!
Maybe best solution od give more experience points? In this case in each group wolud be smallest number od units?!
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2023 10:37 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 23:13, 05 Oct 2023.
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baronus said:
But we have h4zero system so we can have both. You can replace h4zero placeholder units by good ones like it. So I dont see a problem. Of course if its to powerfull should be ballanced. Shooters in H4 are more powerfull than H3 because you need more turns to block. In H3 usually 2-3 in H4 3-4. So its global problem. Of course excluding centaurs and orcs!
Maybe best solution od give more experience points? In this case in each group wolud be smallest number od units?!
Well, this is about the creature in the Creature Portal
Independently if I end up adding more creatures to the game or not, one of the creatures in portal needs to be replaced
And yes, I thought about increasing XP value, but even then, they are too powerful when massed since they usually defeat all opposition at distance. Then if anyone reachs them they still have first strike.
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Never changing = never improving
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 11:21 PM |
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HoMM IV would have been a great game if not its battle rules. Actually, HoMM IV is hated mainly for its nightmare combat system. Basically, you cannot control anything. You haven't a feeling of a distance, you don't understand if enemy is behind obstacle, etc. What would be a really great achievement in modding HoMM IV is to introduce isometric hexes.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2023 11:47 PM |
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Ok... but I don't see the relation 
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Never changing = never improving
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 06, 2023 12:01 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 00:03, 06 Oct 2023.
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The pun point is in that you mod what you can instead of learning of how to make this game playable at all. It's good as long as you play just for campaign stories. I even finished 4 original campaings. Every time I fought all the monsters and heroes with my terminator hero  This was and is fun, if you play the first time. Actually, almost every game is fun on the learning stage. But, I understood that the game is not what I want from TBS. Just one decision to make hex-grid based battle would have saved the game from oblivion. Now, H4 is loved only by those who started playing Heroes from it. Those who actually can compare stayed with 1-3, considering H4 as an outcast.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 06, 2023 12:21 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:30, 06 Oct 2023.
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I also prefer hex to squares, but that would require nearly a complete rewriting of all combat source code. Even then the isometric perspective makes it not evident about blocking and such.
On top of that the sprites turn in a 4 or 8 directions basis.
What would be easier would just be editing the UI to add more functions and indicators (Turn order scroller, blocking shots indicator, linesight indicator, etc.) at appropiate moments and places.
And to edit movement shadow and grid, since they are ugly (most people including me play combat without grid indicator because it just doesn't look good)
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Never changing = never improving
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted October 06, 2023 06:54 PM |
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BTW all your new units should be extracted and added to creature bank. We need mod Bader on h4zero ,new units' to build new factions.
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted October 07, 2023 06:31 PM |
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Hello there!
Well, even tho I voted for the green Wasports, but I was actually wondering between this and Nerfing the Wardens.
Basically all options sound cool, like the spell-casting H3 Hierophant or Dryad Arbor. They sounds amazing, but as neutrals better, than actual creature portal units.
For the other too, I think Gargoyles and Venom Spawns dont really belongs to this town at all (even if they recoloured). For Homm settings Gargoyles belonged to Oder/death and Venom Spawn Was a unique unite to Death. So this for me is off the chart, but cool idea notheless.
I think Forest Wardens are kinda awesome as a unit, really fit into portal, creature icon is awesome. But I think right now for V8 we should really nerf by a lot in stats or remove first strike or something.
After all I would even settle for wasport, as it is indeed a special creature (it only appeared in H4), not forgetting that we have had recolored and buffed with poison and green skin!
I would be happy with either option, whatever it is!
Edit 1#
If Green Wasports will be the winner, we could introduce in V9 then!! 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 07, 2023 08:02 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 20:03, 07 Oct 2023.
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Quote:
BTW all your new units should be extracted and added to creature bank. We need mod Bader on h4zero ,new units' to build new factions.
I am not against other people using my code and creatures. For example, I published the mass spells locations nobody had found or modded before.
However modding development is attempted to be privatized by other people who don't want to share improvements on the code or new techniques to add buildings and effects, on the basis that they have "rights" to their code modifications and even apparently claim as theirs re-implementation of things that came with the original 2002 game as Creature Portal. (Game mechanics can't be protected by copyright even in enterprise situations)
Anyways, yes, I hope game modification becomes ever more expansive and free, I am certainly preparing to try to incorporate h4zero modding system when it becomes available in a way that isn't linked to equi 355 exe and dlls.
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Never changing = never improving
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted October 07, 2023 09:08 PM |
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NimoStar said:
However modding development is attempted to be privatized by other people who don't want to share improvements on the code or new techniques to add buildings and effects, on the basis that they have "rights" to their code modifications and even apparently claim as theirs re-implementation of things that came with the original 2002 game as Creature Portal.
Is that so? It would be pointless to do so for such an old game. How many users can their mod have?
They might just be too lazy to document the changes. Or - like it sometimes happens to me - not remember what they changed.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 07, 2023 09:10 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:11, 07 Oct 2023.
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I wish, but they literally said its not that, but that they "claim full rights" (as if that was even possible in the context of modified code by others...)
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Never changing = never improving
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2023 09:34 PM |
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Edited by Albyx at 21:37, 07 Oct 2023.
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NimoStar said:
Quote:
BTW all your new units should be extracted and added to creature bank. We need mod Bader on h4zero ,new units' to build new factions.
I am not against other people using my code and creatures. For example, I published the mass spells locations nobody had found or modded before.
However modding development is attempted to be privatized by other people who don't want to share improvements on the code or new techniques to add buildings and effects, on the basis that they have "rights" to their code modifications and even apparently claim as theirs re-implementation of things that came with the original 2002 game as Creature Portal. (Game mechanics can't be protected by copyright even in enterprise situations)
Anyways, yes, I hope game modification becomes ever more expansive and free, I am certainly preparing to try to incorporate h4zero modding system when it becomes available in a way that isn't linked to equi 355 exe and dlls.
Someone needs to understand that calling people "pathological liars", "thieves" and claiming all they do is "mindlessly copying others code" has consequences. You are always free to write your own code that implements game mechanics that are "attempted to be privatized".
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2023 10:35 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 22:38, 07 Oct 2023.
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What you guys even use to mod the game? I recommend patcher_x86 by baratorch. Just curious, if you invented your own patcher. In that sense we are all interdependable. Until you sincerely want to share your code with community, it's OK. The HotA team, for example, has the right to keep its project private. In the real world people monetize it. It's your right to share your code or not. Thank the God for you have things which cost hundreds of hours of hard work for free. I'd deliberately stopped all the progress which lays on the shoulders of true Titans, to only see how critics would die from their uselessness.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 07, 2023 10:35 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:37, 07 Oct 2023.
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Quote:
has consequences.
Well, it doesn't have "consequences" rather it has "causes" because you said such things and already done it before I dug out your stuff.
However, I have not and never had and never announced any intentions of just merging all H4EMod gameplay changes into Ultimate, since I believe that is a lazy and uninspired approach to modding, coincidentally exactly what H4E did to everything in Equi355 and Equi++.
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Never changing = never improving
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2023 11:23 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
What you guys even use to mod the game? I recommend patcher_x86 by baratorch. Just curious, if you invented your own patcher. In that sense we are all interdependable.
It's baratorch's patcher indeed. Also RoseKavalier made a great system that allows loading and combining different plugins, something like H3 HD launcher plugins. If you are interested I can share my code with you  , although I don't think you'll find something particularly interesting with your big modding experience.
AlexSpl said:
The HotA team, for example, has the right to keep its project private. In the real world people monetize it. It's your right to share your code or not. Thank the God for you have things which cost hundreds of hours of hard work for free. I'd deliberately stopped all the progress which lays on the shoulders of true Titans, to only see how critics would die from their uselessness.
Why stop the progress when there are existing and working mechanisms to prevent essentially stealing from you? Especially when person directly said in public chat they don't care about concent of the author and would add stuff into their "work" because they wrote something on the forum first and therefor they "own" other people code.
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2023 03:42 AM |
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heymlich said:
NimoStar said:
However modding development is attempted to be privatized by other people who don't want to share improvements on the code or new techniques to add buildings and effects, on the basis that they have "rights" to their code modifications and even apparently claim as theirs re-implementation of things that came with the original 2002 game as Creature Portal.
Is that so? It would be pointless to do so for such an old game. How many users can their mod have?
They might just be too lazy to document the changes. Or - like it sometimes happens to me - not remember what they changed.
Just need to clear this up in case anyone else believes this.
Seriously, don't believe anything n says. The rest of us in the h4 modding community are ALL working together. He's just salty that he's now on his own after trying to claim Albyx's work as his own. And yes, we have screenshots from his discord, including the rest of his meltdown where he claimed all h4 modding was because of him, as well as all progress.
He even claimed my modding tools were all because of him (lmao). Also said they were garbage in one breath, and then said there was nothing I could do about him using them (for his recolors) in the next. I even made a feature just for him because he couldn't figure things out even though no one else had any issues.
There have been constant issues with this dude, he just went too far this time so no one wants to share with him anymore.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 09, 2023 12:58 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 01:16, 09 Oct 2023.
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Lol the incendiary tries to pose as fireman
I didn't claim "albyx work as my own". It is only iliveinabox and albyx trying to sabotage Ultimate mod out of envy. To boot, it all started by iliveinabox traying to claim I "stole" h4Zero work (not only h4Zero released his source code for anyone to use, but also
This would not be so bad if "their" stuff wasn't stolen.
Both Albyx and Iliveinabox are party of the closed source obfuscated code camp. They take work done openly and in public, and then they made dll and tools respectively of closed-source precompiled code which they claim as "exclusive rights" and not release to anyone... even despite being based on work done in the open by multiple contributors.
Iliveinabox tool isn't even the first tool made for the purpose of packaging H4 files, Namerutan's tool was first, and I was using it and writing guides for it with hex fixes back in 2017 even before iliveinabox reared his ugly box head http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44655; furthermore, "His" tool is actually based upon it.
Iliveinabox even "demanded" to stop the distribution of the mod "because I used his tools before", something as absurd as adobe claiming the rights of literary works because they are distributed in PDF. To boot, even adobe has more of an argument because they at least invented the format, while ilive only packages in the pre-determined format of 2002 h4.
So it would be as if a bootleg pirate made a low quality reverse-engineered pdf packer and then claimed ownership over not it (which is also illegal) but also the packed pdfs...
So, iliveinabox, you know what right you do have? The right to remain silent. What I doubt you possess it the criterion to exercise it.
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Never changing = never improving
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