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JollyJoker
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posted May 24, 2025 09:42 PM |
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blizzard said:
But finanically punishing people with kids after the kids are already fat is just dumb, because people with school-age kids need money the most.
As I just explained to Salamandre, you can't punish people for something that WAS legal. So a law like this would OF COURSE be valid only for children BORN after the law had been enacted.
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Ghost
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posted May 24, 2025 09:43 PM |
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Right the parents are role model also good model to their children.. Teacher knows it..
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted May 24, 2025 09:52 PM |
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You can try googling "suomalainen kouluruoka" in an image search.. You can see boiled potatoes, fried salmon, sauce and salad, etc No enough, thus at home or center city where is junk restaurant..
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blizzard
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posted May 24, 2025 09:55 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 22:04, 24 May 2025.
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USA is sort of the forerunner when it comes to the crisis with food and diet, and what has been discovered over the decades is that education and awareness does in fact change generational habits. Sugar is not some kind of unbeatable enemy.
I've never been heavy before (because of my body chemistry, not because my diet was great) but there was a point in my life where I drank vast quantities of Mountain Dew. Now I don't drink it ever. It isn't a magical thing. Habits can change.
When you start to associate certain foods with your arteries getting clogged or your blood sugar spiking, it can create a Pavlonian response. I can't actually drink a bottle of Mountain Dew without feeling dirty on the inside. A bottle of sparkling water is 100% guilt free.
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Ghost
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posted May 24, 2025 10:07 PM |
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In Finland you drink sugar free Mountain Dew..
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JollyJoker
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posted May 24, 2025 10:08 PM |
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It's just not enough. It's more a case like vaccination. You don't leave that to better education so in 2 generations 80% will vaccinate their children voluntarily).
We cannot wait 2 generations.
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Ghost
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posted May 24, 2025 10:19 PM |
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Ok I don't understand translator, maybe you can.. When I want to say: "I'm Finnish.. In Finland, things are being developed.. But I'm not giving up meat.." And for me fine isn't a new thing, if I remember right, we are talked about fine..
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blizzard
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posted May 24, 2025 10:25 PM |
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With a vaccination you just show up at a pharmacy and get pricked in the shoulder. It is like 20 minutes in and out.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 24, 2025 10:27 PM |
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And still people don't do it voluntarily. Not nearly enough, at least.
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blizzard
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posted May 24, 2025 11:03 PM |
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What I mean is that a mandatory vaccine doesn't place a burden on families. Again, they might whine about it, but there isn't actually a burden on them.
For nutrition, there needs to be a strategy that doesn't turn voters against their own politicians by sending bills in the mail to working class families with pudgy children.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 25, 2025 10:19 AM |
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If they KNOW beforehand that it will have consequences when you "abuse" your children by letting them get fat, there isn't anything wrong with letting them pay. That's not different from consequences when you "abuse" them in any other way.
It would only be wrong if you'd make the law and then start handing out penalties right away.
And of course it wouldn't just be working class families.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 25, 2025 11:28 AM |
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An overreaching state pushing the limits of its jurisdiction is as much as a problem as public health. With vaccines, it’s simple, everyone gets the same shot, a procedure that takes a few minutes and you’re done. Not to mention that with diseases, there is a direct threat to others, not just financial burden. The argument of financial burden can be applied to any careless behavior and you cant force people to care about things unless you are an authoritarian state.
Unlike vaccines, here you are basically dictating people how to raise their children on a daily basis. You can argue that to outlaw beating up your children is also doing that. But to complicate matters more, children with different levels of tolerance to obesity, different income households (bad food is cheap), different levels of mobility (if you walk to school every morning that is a great advantage but it has to be close enough etc), different behavioral patterns (some like sports, some are nerds who sit in front of a computer all day) and so many more parameters, this would be a nightmare to apply, put aside the ethical gray areas.
With stuff like alcohol and cigarettes, you can simply put an age limit. When it comes to nutrition though, it’s all about quantities and once again, there is no default, universal quantitiy. It’s all subjective. Raising awareness and providing haalty food in a desirable fashion, the carot not the stick should be the way to go here.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted May 25, 2025 12:17 PM |
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I think you put down wrong arguments here.
Society - the state - has a duty to those who can't help themselves. But if you look at orphanages - where this is a direct duty - they are in reality not living up to that.
Those children who have parents have rights, and these include to be protected from abusive parents. They also have the right to being protected from MALnourishment. Malnourishment, however, means not only not enough nourishment that ends with starving to death, it also includes WRONG nourishment that doesn't offer what children need to be healthy and grow.
So factually all parents (and of course GRANDparents) who doesn't make sure their children get the right nourishment (or allow a diet that will make them sick and/or fat) are ALREADY guilty of neglection - it's just that they are not prosecuted for it, because it would be a fool's errand to even start. (That is true for other things as well - children can't sit the whole day over their laptop or handy; enough juveniles already have back problems before they even leave school.)
And that said - tadaa - you suggested a viable alternative: put an 18-sign on:
1) Fastfood joints;
2) Refined sugar products;
3) Ready-meals (highly processed food);
And
4) Make one hour PE mandatory per day in school.
You like that better? I could live with it. But I have an inkling that you won't.
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blizzard
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posted May 25, 2025 03:41 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 15:56, 25 May 2025.
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I think that would all be a lot more complicated than you realize.
What qualifies as fast food? Having food that is fast to get doesn"t somehow clog your arteries.
You mean saturated fat, simple carbs, and sodium? What is the cut off?
So, essentially, a ban on refined sugar. That means unrefined sugar and brown sugar can move in. Or artificial sweetener alternatives, but they can cause serious problems too.
How would you enforce these bans in people's homes? Sounds like a law that would rarely be followed. Sounds like Prohibition 2.0 to be honest, except a lot more silly. At least with alcohol you can sympathize with people who have been victims of violence and abuse from alcoholics. It is understandable why they would want the stuff to just disappear, even if that goal is not realistic. Beer is a very important food group, duh.
PE is already part of the core curriculum and has been for a very long time. Increasing it to an hour every day means something else is being cut. Also, getting certain kids to run is not as easy as you think. Again, best of luck with discipline and enforcement.
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Ghost
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posted May 25, 2025 04:21 PM |
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Remember, alcoholic means compulsive drinker and a genetic defect causes alcohol craving.. And what is solution to the world? Genetic mapping something, that first checks for disease.. If disease has found, he/she allown't drink a alcohol.. Problem that is psilocybin mushrooms help and cure alcoholics.. In Canada, medicine uses psilocybins, they have tested in Canada, Finland and Bulgaria, the result is excellent.. Remember we don't know about gene is still unknown to us.. Thus we treat with a psilocybin, drug, etc
And foods are also for an athlete.. They can't live without a protein (a large dose is risky), sugar and fat.. So your fault that you don't walk, run, take a weight, etc
JJ is right that fact is fat people live longer life in cold weather.. Half-super materialistic magazine told already, so yes you find in the internet..
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JollyJoker
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posted May 25, 2025 05:31 PM |
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@ blizzard
Why is there a difference between a fastfood and a strip joint in terms of letting underaged peopole enter and why is there a difference between not allowing any drugs for underaged people and/or sugar (which is a drug as well) and unhealthy food? You cannot control whether children smoke or drink at home either.
Of course there would be details to settle, but still - don't you think people are fat enough? I mean, in France only 12% of the people are overweight (the lowest of all European countries). In comparison it's 45% in the US. It's 27% in Germany. Over 30% in Turkey. And so on. Something is going VERY wrong in this regard and it's high time to do something about it.
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blizzard
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posted May 25, 2025 05:51 PM |
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One thing is that those numbers you are giving are way, way under the reality. About half of France is overweight and about three quarters of the US, not half.
The Mediterreanan diet is in the process of being almost completely erased.
This is why I say that nutrition is like one of the top most serious issues ever in human history, maybe right up there with climate change. We have an evolutionary drive to take in and retain energy (especially when it is easily absorbed, like with white flour) and yet in modern society there is zero need for that kind of behavior. It is something that is destroying healthcare's ability to function.
Now, jokes aside, there is zero need for alcohol. It is just a fun thing to drink. That's why you need to be 21. In some places it is lower, which is really stupid because the brain is still rapidly maturing and developing in the 16-21 age range. But either way, there are rules around it.
Sugar is a naturally occurring thing in everything from tomatoes to oranges to broccoli. It's isn't like alcohol. Unless you're following a very strict keto diet, you are always going to be getting a regular intake of sugar. So, sugar and alcohol are apples and oranges. They're just different.
I already said that I'm 100% fine with taxing refined versions of sugar. Soda is basically just liquid candy, and I am fine with a soda tax to discourage consumption. They already do that in the District of Columbia.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 25, 2025 06:55 PM |
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WHO obesity index
Ok, "obesity" is probably something different than "overweight" (usually overweight is BMI 25-30, while obesity starts at 30), but it is STILL pretty indicative.
Then you are WRONG about sugar. Fruit sugar is different, and lo and behold, too much is critical.
Since you are pretty knowing about diets and nutrition you will agree with me that "refinement" is a big problem. It's a problem with sugar, with flour with coca, with opium and so on. That's why REFINED sugar, especially when it's "hidden", is a big thing. "Regular ketchup, for example, contains over 20% sugar. Tomatoes, depending on the kind, have 2.5 up to 4% (canned), so ketchup COULD (and does for some brands) come with about 4% sugar.
In short - REFINED sugar is BAD, no matter the amount. It's been established that the addiction level is in the cocain range - you wouldn't want to have "hidden" cocain in your food.
So, NO, refined sugar is as much a naturally occuring thing as cocain. You should actually know all this, so I consider this bad faith arguing.
I hope you have REAL points.
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blizzard
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posted May 25, 2025 07:48 PM |
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My point was back on the last page, which is that refined sugar and similar products, such as corn syrup, have become extremely integrated into society. A lot of this was because of ignorance, because back when this stuff was on the rise in the 19th century people didn't fully comprehend what they were getting themselves into as a society and that once you go down a path a certain length, it becomes harder and harder to turn around.
I understand that refined sugar is not a naturally occurring thing, but I wouldn't put ice cream in the same category as recreational drugs. I have had ketamine before (a psydellic drug) and I have had an ice cream cone before. They are not the same thing. For example, one of them gives you a brief and moderate rush of energy and one of them makes you feel like you transcend the universe, i.e. apples and oranges. You really like to over-utilize on analogies in the OSM and it does not help your arguments.
But, I am all for giving things a test run. So, if YOU want to create a nation that sends bills to poor families with fat kids, restricts access to restaurants, puts age limits on ice cream and candy bars, requires mandatory PE for one full hour every school, etc., then by all means, you are more than welcome to give it a shot.
But I am 99% positive that you won't succeed in getting all of this stuff passed, and I am 100% positive that even if you did succeed, you would experience massive blowback.
So, instead of acting extreme and then having your own party collapse at the polls, maybe go for a more realistic approach that actually stands a chance of being implemented. So, education, awareness, and putting taxes (and labels, in some instances) on some products. These are things that actually do work. Every new generation of Americans have been eating a little bit healthier than the pdevious generation since the babyboomers. It just takes time and sustained effort for the culture to be reshaped. It is not an instant thing.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 25, 2025 09:08 PM |
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You are STILL arguing the wrong way.
It's ABSOLUTELY no problem for the industry to drop refined sugar. NONE WHATSOEVER. If you'd ban refined sugar consumption for underage people, within a couple of months the products for children would come with brown cane sugar.
In truth, refined sugar isn't needed. For anything. Because there are BETTER products.
Now, the problem with YOUR arguments is this: I don't need cocain as a comparison, even though the comparison is a good one. Keep in mind that Coca-Cola DID contain cocain in the good old days. But what if, instead (or in addition to) refined sugar tons of products would contain hidden ALCOHOL. (Which is actually the case, although not nearly as many as sugar, but there are a couple). Would you say that's ok for children to eat that?
Keep in mind the alcohol is WAY longer and stronger an integrate part of society than refined sugar.
Which is only part of the equation. This is only an example study and article.
You underestimate the problem.
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This thread is pages long: 
