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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: Beowulf come and save me!!!
Thread: Beowulf come and save me!!! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted May 17, 2001 05:49 AM

Beowulf come and save me!!!

This is not a thread about how closed maps rule and how hit and run is so lame.

So if you have anything to say about that please save it for the 1500 other threads where people talk about it.

I left ToH after playing about 100 games the first time.

There was nothing wrong with ToH but it was certainly wrong for me.

I have listened to people on the zone who never even played in Oracle insult it endlessly but truth is there was a standard there and I REALLY miss that.

They didn't care about pleasing everyone. They did one thing very well and some enjoyed it.

In ToH there is always said to be something for everyone. It is really cool how ToH has attracted these huge numbers of players but the basis of attracting and keeping them has been under the philosophy of "give the players what they want".

And where is the flaw in that?

In fact it sounds like the most genius plan of all.

After all ToH is a democracy right?

Let the voices be heard. "We want no hit and run and no 4th level heroes. No logistics heroes and closed maps so noone interferes with our plans. Give us what we want and we will be loyal!!"

I think it is no exageration to say that the ToH popular maps are formula based. EvW, Hourglass, Battlemania, Desert War, etc. The moves are the same everytime with lil variables changing allowing little need for improvisation.

There was a map like this in Oracle too. It was called "Destiny" and in a 3 month period it was easily the most played map.

So it is clear players want this and that is fine.

I wonder why in 2 years the style of play went from one extreme as it was in Oracle to the opposite extreme as it is here.

I have an idea that in Oracle a weak player or teenager would buy the game and come home and play unforgiving maps vs ruthless players and get stomped.

The player would then either;

a) Quit playing(probably 95%)
b) Adapt and become a highly skilled player.

There were simply no other options. Rule making and closed maps were not options for the high standard of play Oracle sought after.

Am I saying those 2 things are wrong?

No way. I just think that in ToH they have been encouraged to such a degree that noone really ever got exposed to the other side.

JB started pumping out formula maps in season 1. Why would a player want to play Fire War Campaign when he could play Bound by Strength?

Bound is a map that can be memorized and mastered in 15 minutes where as Fire would have to be improvised every time due to complexity.

Most players do not want to have to improvise all their moves in an unsure world.

But what for those of us who do? Where did the style of play go? Did people just stop making inventive maps in heroes3?

I have talked to several map designers that swore to me JB threw their maps out and noone else even knew about them.

Recently Yawacko made a map called "Just Another Map" and one look at it will show anyone that the title is right on. But was there any debate about it being a ToH map?

Of course not. It was done by Yawacko so it was posted.

Cliques are for highschool. I don't want some guy who cares about making maps "between turns" as he puts it and will delete maps by some people and post maps by his friends in charge of what I am allowed to see and play.

There needs to be an Astral Wizard type system where all maps get voted on by people of different tastes.

I will just as soon leave the boat as rock it. As Jex put it "we don't even play the same game, Mocara." and he was right, we don't.

But with poorly qualified people holding high positions I feel a whole generation of players will and have been cheated out of maps and games they might have enjoyed.

It is fine if only 5% of players want to play this style of play but it would surely be 25% if it had not been suppressed.

Recently some people I know in ToH were exposed to 7Lakes for the first time and they were literally blown away.

They had never been exposed to a map where the strategies were so complex and intense.

Why are we still playing old heroes2 maps? Hasn't anyone made a map in that style in 2 years?

Of course they have but where is it?

In someone's recycle bin?

So if 95% of players want to play Desert War, Hourglass 1,2,3,infinity or Battlemania then what of the others who can't find a good game on a map we like and no new maps are being made (or published) in the style we love.

Is this just ToH's way of saying get lost? Or is there a place for us relics amongst the teenie boppers and rulemakers?

-Mocara
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zedrin
zedrin


Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
posted May 17, 2001 07:27 AM

Lol Mocara... "to each his own".

Btw, "Just another map" was not made by yawacko, but by a young upstart player who submitted his map to Blue_Angel and was accepted there.

Thus it isn't that Toh "encourages" closed maps, it is just that people prefer them.

Secondly, very few people make quality maps, most just copy them.
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 17, 2001 07:30 AM
Edited By: Jinxer on 17 May 2001 01:56

Mocara is God-Like

Well I just wanna barf everytime I see one of your posts.  Even though I agree with some of your angles.. that there needs to be more different styles.  However you sound a bit hipacritacal since it sounds as if you want all the maps to be as they were in oracle.  RUSH and kill day 7!!  The biggest problem is noone has figured outa  way to make a campaign style map that offers complexity with no formula and yet not have the option for a quit RUSH kill.  I have to admit I have never played fire war campaign map, so I dont know the way it plays.  

And you cant tell me that you so called skilled players havent got a formula to the maps like seven lakes that you worship so much.  Only true way to play any map without a well thought out formula is to play blind maps or random maps.  I will admit I enjoy playing some of these formula maps and I too get bored with the same old stuff and would like lotta differnt styles.  But need new thoughts not revert back to the oracle, rush kill theory.  

Basically to sum it up.  Yes there needs to be newer map styles and concepts and more people need to be willing to try the new stuff. Thats what HOMM4 is gonna be for, something new  ) but unless TOH takes control and limits and guides the type of maps to play now for HOMM3 people will still play Desert war 1000 times. ( That is worst map ever)  

You are entitled to your opinion Mocara thats what this board is for, but you need to learn how to make your point without sounding as if the rest of the world has skewed off of the normal tilt as pertains to Mocara and that we need to get back on your course.  Maybe give some thought that maybe just maybe you are the one terribly unbalanced and outta place.

As you stated TOH is growing ever stronger every day and where is Oracle?  Oracle where are you, come out come out where ever you are??? So if TOH style of play is soo backward and Oracles was so ingenius and rightous why is TOH the biggest HOMM3 tourny on the net and Oracle no longer open ( Or atleast isnt that big a deal)

Jinxer
Give me all you got mocara, I expect to hear a shakesperian reply with your infinite wisdom  LOL


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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2001 08:27 AM

Well...

Firstly, just because a mass of people choose, or think a certain way, that by no means makes them correct.

It's simple math to realize that most players of any game are not skilled. Especially not "highly" skilled. Since those kind of players enjoy formulistic maps- it's only natural those kind of make proliferate and dominate a tournament meant for everyone.

Personally, I like it that there is such a large pool of players. They aren't all skilled, and most never will be- but the more people play, the larger the pool of skilled players will grow. And so, for H4- many more people will be skilled likely.

As for open vs closed maps- I prefer open maps in the style of many H2 or oracle maps, but I can enjoy a closed map occasionally, especially when I don't feel like concentrating on the game, but still want to stomp someone. Many times I am not even in the room when I play closed maps. The only time I ever make a mistake is if I skip a turn because I am doing something else. I play maybe the first week straight, then talk on the phone, check e-mail, or even go cook dinner or something.

I think many of the old guard remember the quality of play in Oracle, but that was a very different kind of tournament, and I would even say the times were different back then. Not as many people had internet access, and those that were playing online were much more likely to be a hardcore gamer who knew their stuff.

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Grandelf
Grandelf


Hired Hero
posted May 17, 2001 10:19 AM

Is there democracy in Afganistan?

Moc, i enjoy reading your posts. You remember me of a guy i knew 15years ago. I would love to meet you and drink few beers with you(only few, lol-comment from behind).

Now few words about mapmakers. There are some great mapmakers around. All of them make maps they love to play. Some of them (Pandora, CalJS, Alex_DW_Killer...)make close maps and it looks like these are the most popular maps.
Other(Hapkane, Salamndre) make open maps and i think players dont like them because they are hard to play.

What about JB? Well, in my opinion hes genius. Ok, he made most of his maps bettwen turns and all of these maps were very good. Give him a brake Moc, hes 21 years old, he need some life. Belive me, lock him in room with comp and editor only and he will make you some maps that will blow your head off

7 lakes and Beltway. Hmmm, 7lakes is good on 200% only and Beltway is one week map(if its played 1vs1)

p.s. Ups i forgot to mention Jinxer and his semi-closed? and popular serial Battle for Power.
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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2001 01:53 PM

"It's simple math to realize that most players of any game are not skilled. Especially not "highly" skilled. Since those kind of players enjoy formulistic maps- it's only natural those kind of make proliferate and dominate a tournament meant for everyone.

Personally, I like it that there is such a large pool of players. They aren't all skilled, and most never will be- but the more people play, the larger the pool of skilled players will grow. And so, for H4- many more people will be skilled likely."

I totally agree with you ichon even though i dont play heroes online/tournaments this is true of most games that want to last online.

Hmm and as for Mocara after reading Jinxers reply i hope you DO rip him to pieces in your reply! As what he said here its no wonder you dont like him much.
Let the battle start!




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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted May 17, 2001 03:06 PM

Hello

No need to offend anyone, but Jinxer, why do you feel such a great need to proclaim your TOH status to us all?


Yours Sincerely

Cadet Shae Trielle,

Division Nobody

Clan Nobody

ToH Nobody


*smile*

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Zud
Zud


Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
posted May 17, 2001 03:32 PM

Dont put this on the mapmakers

I dont think this is an issue of the mapmakers, I think many decent "open" or mixed strategy maps have been created.  It is just that the players do not choose to play them.

I personally do not play open maps that often, usually closed or semi closed because i do very much enjoy building that hero up.  

new maps do get created (and posted) that are open or more complex, but they are not empraced by a lot of the players.

I for one have always enjoyed diamondhead, a semi open map that noone else seems to play.  maps like survivor are open and posted but receive little attention.

I think it boils down to the fact that a lot of players like the rich in luck maps like hourglass where they get the chance to get some big arties and big joiner armies and have a chance to beat a higher ranked player if they get lesser arts and joiners.

I at times have just pulled a random multi player map from astral wizard to play with an opponent blind (just report random) just because I am not yet that impressed with the random generator.

If people were thirsting for the type of maps like beltway and 7 lakes I think they would be showing up, It's not a TOH or Mapmaker directive tho, its just what the masses want
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Winner or Whiner?

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pandora
pandora


Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
posted May 17, 2001 06:02 PM

why not do something constructive?

Mocara,  these are your thoughts and you're entitled to 'em - but you said some things that just aren't right.  You heard from a few people about their maps, but did you talk to JB? Its unfair of you to make him out like he was just tossing any map he didn't like, just for the sake he didn't like it, you're making assumptions without listening to his side first.
As for a voting system on maps, it exists, look at the ToH page - there are maps listed that you can download , test and vote for, and it's been there for a while.  
Yawacko has never made a map.
I'm not gonna get into the other stuff 'cuz i think this thread has already been plenty negative.
I will say this, i think the problem you have is not coming from ToH, or mapmakers or wherever you want to lay blame.  Its simply that people haven't been as exposed to the maps and the style of map you are referring to - they play maps that they know and they like - and yes mapmakers do cater to that.  Its a pain making maps, and its a pain getting slammed constantly for it by those who don't like em - so why not make something people will at least play?  I for one make maps for me, i like em and they suit me, if other people like em, cool - if they don't u can bet i wont lose any sleep over it.
But anyways, my point in writing is why not DO something to expose people to other styles then?  If you're going to raise a subject you have a problem with, why not propose a solution?  You want people to play a different style, maybe open their minds to new possibilities - why not propose a new tourney just for that reason?  Not seperate from ToH, but a sub-tourney.  Vesuvius has allowed several ToH members to create and run their own tourney - so why not run it by him?  Put something in here to see who supports such an idea, see what comes of that...Maybe with rankings points as an incentive players will sign on and try something different.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 17, 2001 06:24 PM

Pandora summed it up better :)

Well first off, after re-reading my post I was a bit agressive.  So I apologize Mocara if my post seemed to personally attack you.  My frustration was not directed at you but rather the subject you were complaining about.

Pandora summed it up alot better, My statement about wanning to vomit at your posts, meant only that it always seems your posts are negative and complaining about one thing or the other.  Seems nothing ever suits you and you think it should be changed.  So no offense was intended to you personally.

As Pandora said maybe instead of starting threads that just trash people and the tourny for flaws you think it has, do something more productive and offer solution and idea as Pandora said.

Jinxer
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mklthrkngl
mklthrkngl


Known Hero
posted May 17, 2001 08:17 PM

map making, yuck!

Every time i sit down and play a game of heroe's i praise the lord there are others, such as jb239, pandora and a whole host of others who take the and bother to make maps for me to play! And make em well!! I've tried my hand at map making and it bored me to tears! My hats off to all those who can pump em out and i say keep on pumping!! As for those others who complain that bthere maps don't make it on the TOH site, maybe you should try these maps out Moccara before saying they deserve ot be on the TOH map page.I used to always say yes to peeps who wanted to try a new map out. I just cann't do it anymore! i'm sorry i cann't!!!! It's just to hard!!! For every map that is good you end up playing many many that are just awful! It's easy to complain about the peeps who have to make these decisions on the maps but i wouldn't want there job for anything!! I say pin a freaking medal on JB239's chest for duty above and beyond the call of duty for not only making decent maps, but for sorting thru all those bowsers for the maps that are any good

 p.s. I also like seven lakes by the way. Was a treat. Me and Yawacko played it first time blind. In the end though there is still a formula for it and all you have to do is play Frank and he'll teach it to you really quick!!

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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2001 09:45 PM

Hmmmmm Moc.

I ussually agree on ur post, but this one plains suck......

Sorry to say this but it aint JB, or any other who decides which maps is played in TOH, as there are 100 (Dunno the exact number) of maps on the TOH page.

Its the one who plays the maps who decide. And sure only people Ive heard in season 2 who wanted to play Seven lakes where guys like Frank or Elio, and thats how I came to know them. As Im just a newbie
That I could convince Maxym it was a great map, without ever having played it, just tells u something about how persuasive I am
But quit the nagging, and find the games u wanna play. I do
Btw, I hate playing DW, but look at the composition in that map, and lets all agree that its both innovative and pretty beatifull. That goes for CalJs map DoG aswell........
And I hate playing that one too

Defreni
(Who likes to give credit, where credits due. And that means all the mapmakers mentioned in the thread. Aswell as Pandora and Jinxer, who I dont believe has been mentioned before. Thx from my side for a great work done )
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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted May 18, 2001 01:24 AM

Sorry to see you post like this, Mocara. Your posts have always until this one been well thought out and well worth reading and I enjoy them very much

I certainly second the comment about thanks to the mapmakers

I would also sympathise with the basic theme: as a newcomer this reminds me of learning to play chess. I enjoyed the game at school and could beat most of the other children then I hit a point where in order to progress you had to learn the openings. This was a lot of extra homework just to play a game

I feel that in order to progress in TOH I will have to go over saves, practice certain common maps like Desert War and BfH and I am somewhat put off by the idea.

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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted May 18, 2001 03:44 AM

a positive reply

I agree with Mocara, in that the map complexities have died down, that being in comparison to a map like seven lakes for example.  Complaints go on the fact that TOH has only formulaic maps, but there are 100s of maps that noone plays, that are in my opinion, good.  But like in any large scale tourney, certain maps become popular and stick to the players.  If you think heroes abuses the repeat-map thing, you should play the warcraft, command&conquer, or quake to know true abuse of use and reuse of the same map.

I agree with Jinxer and the rest, that the mapmakers like JB, Alex, Pandora, Hapkane etc.. have made great maps, if more for tournament play.  Hey, I like many of my lords maps...

I agree with Pandora and there is always room for a new subtourney....  for a Season I Oracle was a 'subtourney' of TOH, until it froze up.  

ToH is freestanding, and I will never impose rules on gameplay, like no hit and run, or whatnot, and rules on maps that can be played or not.  The only rule to make an exception is no Small maps, which is understandable.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 18, 2001 04:27 AM

make it clear

For my side I want to know what happened to a map I respect a lot, Peloponesia. My friend Teglatphalassar made it and sent it to TOH. "Someone" took care of the map, changing all that was perfect in that map -"to make it playable". Then it was posted under the name "Ancient Greece", xl map, description" cd map, slighty modified"

I can understand Teglat quitted toh after this gaffe. In my opinion Peloponesia was the best map ToH ever put in, I remember Teglat testing it for 2 months(!) to make all towns equal while having different available buildings and restricted heros.

Would be interesting to know who removed all towns puting instead random ones. It was enough to destroy a genial map.

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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted May 18, 2001 04:55 AM

And they said Jim Morrison was misunderstood =)

OK,

Believe it or not I respect everyone here and I am seriously tired of ANY thread that turns to bickering so I am going to try to address the points made here and get past the comments about "barfing at my post" and such.

First off Jinxer, I am sorry if we got off on the wrong foot.

To be honest I was hurt by you and Jex saying things like "pathetic" and "cheat" when I first came to this board and I don't think I have ever had a chance to read your post from a fresh viewpoint after that.

I am done being emotional with you and just going to say you have good points about Oracle being gone and ToH being popular.

I stand by my point that you Oracle would never attract masses of players because it held a strict standard.

If that offends anyone I am sorry but it's the reason why those of us who played there miss it so.

ToH is great. I think my playing 200 games there should show I support it but it is more about pleasing the masses where as Oracle was more specialized, somewhat like Bastards tourney is now.

You make fun of Oracle as many do but a lot of us put a lot of work into it and we are proud of what we did so reallize what you are saying when you refer to it in that manner.

If Oracle came back now it would not exceed 200 players and ToH would still be king. But it would still be nice for those of us "freeks" who liked it.

Your point about how maybe I am the weirdo is well taken. In fact I am saying that myself. I know my desires are avante garde and accept that.

Zedrin I was told by Deth8 that Yawacko made the map. I was misinformed. Still the map is not ToH standard I would say and I wonder why it is up there.

And Ichon, thank you for your post. I am glad someone got what I was trying to say without taking offense because truly none was intended.

Grand Elf, I'll buy the beer and we can play beltway. It is NOT a one week map. But it can be if you don't play defensively.

Also I will take this time to clarify about JB.

I was told by some that their maps were thrown out by JB and I looked at the maps and there was no reason they should have been.

Pandora and I spoke at length about this and she has straightened me out on it.

I seek not to hurt your feelings JB. I really like you and appreciate your contribution but I also like my friends who made this claim to me.

Zud your point is perfect as usual about the maps not being played and therefor not being made.

I really don't know what to do about this. I can make maps where the castles start in the corners and everything is mirrored but balancing a map like 7 Lakes is beyond my ability.

Pandora is next with a great point. I should be more constructive. It is frustrating trying to find a good game (by my idea of a good game) and being told "HG, Desert War, Boomerang" and I was pretty discouraged when I made the post.

Jinxer I shouldn't have flamed you back. I was pretty pissed about the comments you made about Oracle and didn't even read yoru second post.

Peace.

MKDGHUEGEU or whatever your name is I agree. I am too lazy to make maps and I am forever in dept to whoever took the time to make The Nexus and even to some of the maps I don't like that much. Playing maps that have not been tested IS painful and often an extreme waste of time.

And as for Vesuvius. If I did not care about your league so much I wouldn't have stuck my neck out and said these things in an attempt to make some possible improvements.

I would have just quit. I hope you reallize that I tried to keep positive about everything.

Some people say to me sometimes "Let's quit ToH!!".

You know what? I don't want to quit. But I want it to improve no matter how good it gets.

If you people don't like my methods of getting people to talk that's fine. Obviously I can handle criticism or I would have left here long ago. But I am a voice and I am glad we are talking about heroes and ToH for a change instead of talking about God and child abuse like it has been recently.

Communication is the key, Mocara

"Yikes!!!" - Mocara after going to bed and seeing the reaction his post had received =)
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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted May 18, 2001 12:06 PM

Sal please email me that map.

If Teg made it I KNOW it is good.

Maybe Teg will start Sons of Oracle back up?

That was a good league. I was still having Oracle withdrawal at the time so I didn't give it the chance it deserved.

And Rob, Oracle subtourney sounds a strange doesn't it? I know you didn't mean it in a derogitory manner but many of your members are in the habit of downing on Oracle so I will defend them from time to time as I hope they would ToH if it ever closed up.

It was not too long ago when Oracle helped Vesuvius Heroes Challenge to get on the map when it was a new tourney.

The reason Oracle went under when it resurfaced was because Oracle was sticking with the same ideals they originally had and the players were looking for something else.

ToH is much wiser in that respect. It allowed the players to shape it and that is the ultimate example of listening to the people, which is smart.

Salamandre and I knew this but I think Alkis, Pro and Myk were expecting the players to rush in and when they didn't they gave it up.

I think this is sad but at the time I was buying a new home, raising my son and starting a new business and I am ashamed to say did nothing to stop them.

If Oracle had stayed around it would have never gotten very big, maybe 200 players, but would have provided a nice refuge for the left of center player who enjoys that particular style.

I know none of us want to do all that work again but if you can find a little time Pro I would suggest extending invitations to Reanimator, Frank, Maxym, 3lionshield, Salamandre, Elio, Teglaphalletsar, Ichon and Starknight to be GM's and map editors.

You and I can work on the pages and keep it simple.

There are some good maps we could use for tourney play and it would give people something to make fun of =)

All the old fogeys playing wk1 kill maps in that old Oracle thing :-).

It could be just an independant tourney and no free challenge so it would not even conflict with those of us who like playing in ToH.

Alkis will come back for heroes4.

In fact I already emailed him. I think he will GM even now.

Sal will you help me?

Pro?

Starknight?

Reanimator?

Say the word and I'll zip the pages and send them over.

All white background with blue writing =)

In time it will grow to the size it was again and would provide an alternative for different style of play, just like the Bastard's tourney does.

ToH is so big and so awesome that little tourney's like Oracle could never detract from it so why don't we give it a go?

It'll be fun!!

-Mocara


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deth8
deth8


Promising
Known Hero
posted May 18, 2001 12:12 PM

New maps coming maybe?

Quote:
Well I just wanna barf everytime I see one of your posts. ......and Oracle no longer open ( Or atleast isnt that big a deal)

Jinxer
Give me all you got mocara, I expect to hear a shakesperian reply with your infinite wisdom  LOL


Hi General_Jinxer and whoever else is reading,

I have not played Fire War either. I have looked and it seems intense. We should give it a whirl some time. I don't understand how someone could rush someone and actually win on these maps Mocara is mentioning. They might find yourself in a bind if they try. The computer is even a force to be careful with on 7 lakes.

Too me it seems the concept of rush came much more from simple maps like me vs. you, battle for honor, and those types. As always it is something to be onguard about. Don't forget the MasterGremlins at the start too that used to be around. I think alot of this has generally arisen from people wanting to play medium maps for quicker outcomes. Heck, we even had to ban the killing that was going on with small maps.

Sounds to me like some new maps need to be made maybe if possible? Maybe with more complexity? Is it possible people have exhausted their creativity and now just continue to copy the same concepts on different layouts? Heck I wish I played enough to have an opinion on that.

Btw, I have had some fun on "arena" as far as open maps go. Kinda tough to rush on that one. Maybe people don't like the double points for a win on that map cause that can be a risky loss?

I will have to go read the rest of this thread more tomorrow. Looks like some thoughts are flying and being tested. I hope mutual respect among players can be maintained in that. I don't think popularity = superiority in terms of play most certainly.

Best regards all,
-dEth8

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 18, 2001 10:08 PM

No need for quotes. :)

Deth8 -- no need to repost old posts    

Mocara, lets just start over.

I would like to see another tourny like the Grandmasters in the sense that all maps were taken randomly off of TOH maps page and kept secret until time to launch.

Pandora has had an idea for B@sr@rds tourny about generatin several Random maps and then going in and touching them up so that they are no reidiulously unbalanced.  Like taking out the Pandoras box with all the lvl 5 and lvl 4 spells in it  

Anyways I would volunteer to help out in any new tourny concept that would involve trying and playing new and different maps.    Any thoughts.  Let me know.

Maybe even me and you Mocara could work on it together  
I promise to keep my lunch down too  

Jinxer
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 19, 2001 01:05 AM

I will help you Mocara, but didn't you know it already I will?

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