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| Thread: Creatures - quantity or quality ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted November 16, 2002 03:01 AM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 15 Nov 2002
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First, I apologize, if I sounded too harsh.
To the point.
Well, the Vampires are too cheap! I mean, too easy to get - where is the compensation? If you are lucky, you can find yourself with 2 Vampires on day 1.
Yes, they are strong. They are not really level 3. But the same goes for Venom Spawns. Do not underestimate them.
Nightmare vs. Efreet. They are just too different to compare whis way. Efreet's fire shield and fire immunity comes in handy some cases (especially against Black Dragons). They are fast and flying.
Skeleton vs Imp. You are right about all the point you made and you did not even mention the Imp rush strategy (spell point killer). Except one thing - these do not make them stronger. For example, just because your Skeletons don't move with your army, they are stockpiled and hundreds of them can be a good help in an important battle.
BTW, you are not completely right about Black Drakes being clearly (and always) better than Hydras.
What I wanted to say in my last message was: it does not matter, if (believing you) Nightmares are always better then Efreeti. It does not affect balance. All that happens is everyone will choose Nightmares.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 16, 2002 05:20 PM |
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Agree....vampire is more than 3rd level, for it's attack/defense is higher than some 4th level creatures...
About the hydra...it's about 2 hydra vs 1 black dragon. If you don't count the movement, 2 hydra is always better than 1 black dragon. It's attacking all the enemies around! And no retailation! Because it's not immune to magic, it can receive things like slayer, etc. I won't say black dragon is better. I think the gold golem's type of spell immunity is better than dragon's type of immunity.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted November 16, 2002 05:25 PM |
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The reason in my opinion why vampires are such a pain is that they are extremely good (quality). And you get heaps of them through GM necromancy and sacrificing creatures plus your creature generator (quantity). Since Drizzt12 started this discussion, most people agree that quality is more important than lower cost/growth. But through GM necromancy you get vamps for free which greatly reduces their overall cost (you can do the calculation yourself, it's hilarious), and even if their health is somewhat low (quantity can make up for that) their other stats (30 def & att, hahaha!  ) and insane almost unmatched set of skills (flying, undead, no retal, drains life) makes them one of the best level 3 creatures (if not the very best).
There are however lots of creatures in other towns that are very capable in turning a stack of vampires to dust in a matter of turns. Dragon golems, genies, gold golems and dwarves, ugh... the horror! Crusaders/monks, pikemen/ballistae... ugh again! Fearie dragons, medusa's, efreet, hydra's, ... all very ugh. My conclusion is that vampires are indeed very powerful and the backbone of a necropolis creature army. But enemy towns have creatures that are especially skilled in sending the vamps back where they came from. Does this mean the game is unbalanced? Maybe... But the other towns have other advantages that also seem rather excessive sometimes.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted November 16, 2002 10:00 PM |
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Quote:
What I wanted to say in my last message was: it does not matter, if (believing you) Nightmares are always better then Efreeti. It does not affect balance. All that happens is everyone will choose Nightmares.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Each individual game is balanced if everyone chooses the same creatures, but my earlier post was a response to the argument that the creatures, themselves, are balanced. I, simply, don't think they are. I think the designers tried to balance things, but fell short of their goal--perhaps because the game was rushed to market and not adequately tested.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted November 17, 2002 01:42 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Each individual game is balanced if everyone chooses the same creatures, but my earlier post was a response to the argument that the creatures, themselves, are balanced. I, simply, don't think they are. I
-Laelth
But that's the point of the game! The creatures must not be balanced. I can show you a balanced game - just take away all races except one. It is balanced and boring.
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 18, 2002 09:59 AM |
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Quote:
But that's the point of the game! The creatures must not be balanced. I can show you a balanced game - just take away all races except one. It is balanced and boring.
I get the point of the game differently Balanced units means that all units have a fair chance to be used. If everybody always chooses nightmare, there is smth wrong with balance.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted December 19, 2002 12:09 PM |
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Once I cheated. I entered the editor and gave my hero ca. 40 angels and 80 monks +some balistae. The map was 'In war with the in-laws'. About 3 months out in the game, I attacked a Stronghold castle defended by 41 cyclopes, 17 behemoths ++++++. Boy, did I have my ass kicked!!
My point is, I hardly think I'd died if it had been ogre mages..
(Also, cheating is immoral, boring and stupid; you don't get any better by not doing it properly!)
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Abort
Tavern Dweller
shapeshifter
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posted December 25, 2002 04:16 PM |
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Quote:
Once I cheated. I entered the editor and gave my hero ca. 40 angels and 80 monks +some balistae. The map was 'In war with the in-laws'. About 3 months out in the game, I attacked a Stronghold castle defended by 41 cyclopes, 17 behemoths ++++++. Boy, did I have my ass kicked!!
My point is, I hardly think I'd died if it had been ogre mages..
(Also, cheating is immoral, boring and stupid; you don't get any better by not doing it properly!)
I am not sure how you could lost. In time of three months you were able to multiple your army. My favourite town is order and with proper strategy, vampire means nothing to me. Golems, Dragon Golems and Genies and Mass slow. Bye bye necro...
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The LIGHT in your life is the SHADOW in your death.
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CzlowiekWiadro
Hired Hero
Windowlicker
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posted December 29, 2002 08:48 PM |
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I don't agree
Venom Spawns aren't that weak. In past ages (before patch which nerfed tower attack bonus) I remember one Necropolis siege. I had about 15-20 titans, enemy had sth like 30 Venom Spawns on tower. Next thing I remember is that 3-4 titans were dying per turn... JUST FROM POISON.
Venom Spawns' damage is truly formidable, and this combined with poison (it depends on damage dealt) is horrific.
Computer is very easy to beat, especially during sieges. You shouldn't be proud of that. One of the funniest sieges I remember is:
my force: 2 average Sorcerers, 30 medusas, around 30 orcs and bandits,around 35 nightmares, 4 black dragons. I can't exactly remember what were enemy forces, but he had over 40 Thunderbirds and 200 Berserkers, + lost of nomads, harpies, and centaurs.
I won. Mostly due to Confusion and Medusas. And computer's stupidity. He never comes out unless you destroy the gate.
Trust me, Ogre Mages on tower are damn tough. I bet the computer forgot about that.
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Abort
Tavern Dweller
shapeshifter
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posted December 29, 2002 09:39 PM |
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I am building venom spawns in most times because they are strong and good alternative to vampires and also vampires could be accumulated with necromancy.
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The LIGHT in your life is the SHADOW in your death.
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Vince
Hired Hero
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posted January 15, 2003 04:53 PM |
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Quote:
About the hydra...it's about 2 hydra vs 1 black dragon. If you don't count the movement, 2 hydra is always better than 1 black dragon. It's attacking all the enemies around! And no retailation! Because it's not immune to magic, it can receive things like slayer, etc. I won't say black dragon is better. I think the gold golem's type of spell immunity is better than dragon's type of immunity.
At the risk of starting another debate on this, I did testing on using Black Dragons vs Hydras solely. At first I thought the same as you because in a 1:2 ratio fight, the hydras almost always win. However(!), someone(I believe Wub) explained how retaliation works. I was doing my tests incorrectly. The BD has a better combat speed rating and its movement is also better. This allows a BD to get an attack in every other round 'without retaliation' from the hydras. This swings the favour to the BD. Trust me, this makes a huge difference.
Go to the thread "Black Dragons vs Hydras" and learn about retaliation rules. Not only will you understand why Hydras aren't as great as you think, you will also learn about how to get one of your stacks(with good combat speed) to attack an enemy stack without retaliation.
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CzlowiekWiadro
Hired Hero
Windowlicker
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posted January 15, 2003 06:47 PM |
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Hydras
Hydras can be hasted. Dragons can't.
A hydra with level 1 Slayer makes short work of 1/2 dragon
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EmperorSly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted January 16, 2003 10:51 AM |
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my off-topic comment
quantity vs. quality question is simple -- quality wins.
after a tough battle, creature quantity will decrease, but quality stays the same. so its a safer investment, giving you enjoyment till old age...
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StrongholdKe...
Adventuring Hero
IRC fan
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posted January 16, 2003 05:23 PM |
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Quote:
This is might sound weird but: during my games of homm4 with the barbarins i've always (like you all i guess) choose the cyclops insted of the oger mages cause it was not a balanced choise, but have you noticed that the growth of the ogre mages are 6 per week (double than cyclops !), i wante to ask you what's seem better and if you know some more things like this...
Like you know cyclopes are very usefull when you are attcking a castle. You can easily kill the creatures near the towers.
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Barbarian rading party!
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Gun
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 05, 2004 05:10 PM |
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impwise: they really destroy. at least in combination with pain mirror. they are especially useful against those grandmaster combat hero types who can inflict massive damage on the imps -- much more than they have hitpoints. and pain mirror gives it back to them.
i think pain mirror is capped to individual's units hitpoint? So the spell will only make sense to be applied to level 4 creatures or heroes...
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maybe i'd be better on my own; it's easier for me to be alone...
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EmperorSly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted April 06, 2004 09:02 AM |
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no, pain mirror is capped to stack hitpoints. so it makes sense to apply it to large stacks made of cheap hitpoints that easily take damage. like imps. or peasants.
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Gun
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 10, 2004 02:01 AM |
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wow, i never knew that. But then again i rarely use pain mirror in my battle since i usually using hypnotize.
Order is much, much to overpowered with so much fantastic spells in their disposal!!!
Precision, Forgetfulness, Teleport, Blind, Hypnotize....... thankfully they're slow... NOT! Because Genie has high movement points and can CREATE Illusion!! It's so UNfair to have so much goodness in one single alignment now, isn't it??
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maybe i'd be better on my own; it's easier for me to be alone...
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted April 10, 2004 10:51 AM |
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Quote:
wow, i never knew that. But then again i rarely use pain mirror in my battle since i usually using hypnotize.
Order is much, much to overpowered with so much fantastic spells in their disposal!!!
Precision, Forgetfulness, Teleport, Blind, Hypnotize....... thankfully they're slow... NOT! Because Genie has high movement points and can CREATE Illusion!! It's so UNfair to have so much goodness in one single alignment now, isn't it??
Equilibris mod, balances Order a bit. Some spells are now higher level and require line of sight to cast, such as Hypnotize. And illusions can be disspeled with Dispell or Cancelation.
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drlucifer
Adventuring Hero
The Surgeon of Death
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posted April 12, 2004 09:53 PM |
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I think there are really 4 important quantity vs quality decisions in H4:
1. Behemoth vs. T-bird. I don't play Might much, but when I do I go with Behemoths. I figure that whatever I pick goes 1-on-1 with opposing 4th level, and I'd rather have Behemoths in that case: beter attack/defense and damage.
2. Angel vs. Champion. Life I do play a lot, and go with Angels every single time.
3. Cyclops vs. Ogre Mage. Now here I have some stuff to say. Basically as Might you will be charging your enemy and so Cyclops can get hard to use with all your units running around the enemy lines. But Ogre Magi are just too slow.
4. Black Dragon vs Hydra. Again, I will go with quality. The dragons are just too awesome units and the way I play I usually try to make enemies come at me in waves so the Hytdras multi attack doesn't do that much.
By the way, I must say that I too go with Venom Spawn. Its too bad because the two are great 3rd level units, but the poison can just be amazing late in the game.
And oh yes, Order spells still rock.
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Doctors are not necessarily your friends.
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Gurnard
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 07, 2004 05:00 PM |
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Order is overpowered, no question. It has the best range of spells AND the most powerful spells, and easy access to the best classes IMHO: Archmage and Lord Commander. Nobility is one of the best skills (of course, Might can get the same advantage without needing to level up a hero, but I digress) and GM Estates on a lvl. 20 hero churns out 1500 gold. Monks heroes are also good, not so much for their class ability but that Life magic combines so well with Order creatures. And if you play like I do (chunky creatures enhanced by magic heroes), Nagas could well be the best unit in the game. Their growth (augmented by GM Nobility) puts them in front of most lvl. 4 creatures, no-retaliation considered.
If you play mostly combat and treat magic only as a support for might, quality as a rule always beats quantity.
Think about it, creature A has 100hp, creature B has 50hp. Consider that two Bs are completely equivalent to one A. Okay, the stack take 50 damage. A half-dead A still does the same damage, whereas the 1 B has all it's effectiveness halved.
However, different abilities/specialties are better than others in various situations. If Bs abilities work better in the circumstances, then you start to weigh that advantage against the equal-HP rule. A good player will probably pick different creatures every game (keeping in mind that to be a 'good player' you'd need to know how best to use every creature).
I've rattled on long enough.
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