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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes V: The Future is Upon Us
Thread: Heroes V: The Future is Upon Us This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 03, 2002 05:06 AM bonus applied.

Heroes V: The Future is Upon Us

With the release of Heroes IV approximately 6 months ago, a bit more than 5 for those of us who live in countries other than America, and the recent release of the expansion pack in some parts of the United States, it would be a time to reflect on how Heroes IV has turned out, since everyone here has had a chance to play it. Initially, It was hated by everyone; tossed aside; some, such as Mr. Heroes 2 himself: Lord Woock even refused to play Heroes IV. Heroes IV was obviously highly anticipated, and it appeared as though everyone expected more. Everyone WANTED more. H4 was a huge shock to the Heroes playing world-maybe too much had changed from the previous Heroes series too soon. These things may have lead to its initial hatred: 4 levels, no upgrades, heroes in combat, new magic system, and the new hero classes. These were certainly issues that were discussed pre-Heroes IV release and were big question marks concerning the game’s playability. Many said 4 levels wouldn’t give enough depth for the game and to complicate the issue, the player could only choose 1 of those creatures from level 2 onwards. Since the game has been played and opinions have been decided, how did 4 levels affect gameplay, did it lack depth? All these questions are now answered. But what isn’t answered is what Heroes V will keep from Heroes IV, what it won’t keep and what aspects will be entirely new? I have created this thread to discuss your impressions on what aspects of Heroes IV worked for you and how you can convert that to Heroes V, since it is still very much in the making. Also, your own new ideas are very much welcome in this thread. I shall start off by listing what worked and didn’t work well for me in Heroes IV in Categories.

Adventure Map

There are many aspects of the Adventure Map that are lacking, or do not serve enough purpose to worthy of a place on the map.

The Thieves Guild
The disappearance of the Thieves Guild from the Adventure Map is a change I do not approve of. It makes vital information vital to anyone, and one can easily just look at the Thieves Guild, target the weakest player, and be done with it. Also the way the information is conveyed is too edifying, especially the Total Army strength. I liked the Heroes 2 method where only the Oracle gave out all information and the Thieves’ Guild (located in the castle) increased with every Thieves’ Guild constructed.

The Marketplace
Like its revealing counterpart, it is available to anyone at anytime. Even though it is a necessity, I don’t think it should be taken for granted. I would like to see to the Heroes III method once again utilised. And why would 3D0 put a Trading Post in when you can just get to the Marketplace through the toolbar!!!???

Quests
I enjoy the prospect of quests in Heroes V. They are challenging, fun and can be pivotal or non-pivotal in a game at your will. They are a good feature added into Heroes IV IMO and should certainly be carried on to Heroes V.

Wandering Guards
I think this change is good, but really doesn’t have too much of an impact on how the game is played. Yes, people can’t just ride up next to the monster and take the resource, nor can they wait near a stronger monster anymore.

Power-Ups
While I believe that there are enough of them, they don’t cater for every type of specialised hero. Some power-ups can be worthless to a might hero and vice-versa. I would like to see a greater range with less duplications, such as a Tree of Knowledge, Dream Teacher and Learning Stone, while slightly different, there could be others which would more openly affect the player.

Combat

To be honest, I enjoy many of the changes that have occurred to the Combat aspect of Heroes IV. Many of these have been strategic changes, which make tight battles even tighter. Also, It once said that a numerically stronger Preserve army would ‘handily defeat’ my Asylum army. The outcome was the other way around. I still had about 11 Hydras and 70 Medusas left after the combat.

Line of Sight
I think this change is rather strategic and realistic. Although one can still shoot through trees and rocks, it does still give the impression that the ranged attacker can’t see who he is firing at. In Heroes V I would like to see the Line of Sight applied to undulations in the terrain and other landscape objects like boulders and trees since these are also nonmotile objects which overall have the same effect as an enemy stack.

Siege Combat
I believe a upgrading to a castle highly changes the outcome of a siege combat for both sides. The main reason for this is the usage your creatures in the tower, instead of the Heroes III method. This makes it extremely difficult, even for those stronger units, to penetrate the castle walls. The units on the tower have a large bonus, and ones attacking those on the tower have a decrease in ‘potentness’. I would like to see the Catapult brought back, since now the creatures (or heroes) have to do the work. I would still like to see the castle door and that it can still be attacked as a secondary source of penetrating the castle.
I also do not approve of that the moat is built with the castle, I think it should be a separate feature since then one can have the moat without upgrading to a castle. Although I would still like to see the towers upgraded with the castle. The Heroes II method was too ‘separated’.

Realistic Retaliation
I really don’t see how this affects the game too much. Both creatures attack at the same time. This proves to be a bonus for those with the first strike and no retaliation bonuses especially.

Tactics (New Idea)
I would like to see tactics employed in Heroes V. Not like Heroes III, but in a more advanced way. Tactics should be a secondary skill I believe and should include the following ideas.
Basic
How the army is set up. The overall formation of the army. The player can model the army to his or her likings instead of just tight or normal.
Advanced
Includes the basic effect, but the troops can move further out into the battlefield.
Expert
The units may move even further out into the battlefield, and protective spells like firewall and quicksand can be cast, but they act as the heroes (or creature’s) turn in the tactics section.
Master
All the creatures moves can be pre-defined. An example is that a slower unit, such as a crossbowman, will be able to move before a Champion in combat according to the discretion of the player.
Grandmaster
The first turn of the opponent can be estimated working off information given to the computer by your formation.

Creature Loyalty (New Idea)
This idea incorporates the usage of the alignments and the state of the morale and luck bonuses. My idea helps to emphasise morale and luck more so than before. An example of my idea is as follows:
Say a priest has 5 devils in his army. This would naturally lower morale. But, if he had 2 more death creatures like cerberi and vampires also in his army, the morale will be lowered more and it would prove to be bad luck to those creatures in battle. But what if the creatures actually refused to be a part of his army, since there were other life creatures and nature creatures present. My idea is that the lower the morale, the more chance the creatures have of leaving your army. Say if the morale is –5, then 5% of your army would leave. Then –10, it would be 10%.If morale were to go –20 it could still apply. If morale were +10, then luck would shine on that creature and it would deal more damage.

Heroes
In Heroes IV, there has been an upside and a downside to Heroes. My opinions are below.

Heroes in Combat
While I praise the idea that NWC and 3D0 had, I don’t like the way they incorporated it into the battle. While I do believe it is realistic, it just doesn’t work at later stages in the game. While a level 20 hero may have around 320 HP, and about 70 attack and defence skills, a stack of around 40 level 2 creatures could wipe the hero out in a very small time. Ranged attackers such as about 30 medusas can wipe them out with their attack, then their stone gaze. These are only level 2 creatures. Imagine what level 3 and 4 creatures could do to the hero.
This is why I think that either Heroes become more prominent and resistant to creatures attacks more, or they go back to casting spells and cheering on the sidelines, which I do not want to happen.

Hero Skills
Lately, I have seen complaints about what skills are offered to heroes by Jenova and Djive. I too do not like having my magic hero offered combat-based skills. This is why I would like to see the Heroes II method brought back. This encompasses the needs for that hero. For example, going off my manual, a Barbarian at levels 2-9 has a 55% chance of getting attack, 35% of defence, 5% on power, and 5% on knowledge. This can be converted to the Heroes IV (and Heroes V) system of the primary skills.
Also, for primary skills, I am very fond of the Heroes II method. Such as a Warlock as has a number assigned to a secondary skill, the higher the number, the more chance he has of learning that skill. The example is a Sorceress has a 0 for Necromancy, but a 4 for navigation. This can be easily applied to Heroes IV and V skill developments.

Hero level-up
This is a possible solution to the problem that Heroes aren’t strong enough in combat. I think a new system needs to be developed, one which allows the hero to progress slower in lower levels, and faster in higher levels relative to the previous level up chart. I believe Djive’s example of a level-up chart found here is rather well though out.

Hero Uniqueness
Heroes in Heroes IV no longer have specialties, they don’t even have a fixed portrait to some extent. This is a deplorable feature, a point on which Xenophanes would certainly agree with me. In a game where every creature has a specialty, any hero does not. Heroes really need to be unique and have their own specialty, portrait and biography. At present, it really doesn’t matter what hero you choose within the class, the only thing you have to decide on is their portrait. This must change in Heroes V for Heroes to be unique.

Towns and Castles
This section of Heroes IV I am not very fond of. While there are many unique structures, Heroes IV Towns do not work for me very well.

The Structures
I have previously admitted that I enjoy the uniqueness of the structures of Heroes IV. At least the specialty ones. The Creature Portal is rather innovative, the Undead Transformer is unique, and the Breeding Pens are extremely useful. But unfortunately, the numbers of these structures are too few and therefore more ‘cloned buildings’ are being utilised throughout towns. In Heroes III, the only structures that were the same from town to town was the Castle, Town Hall, Tavern, Shipyard and Marketplace. These were also all very standard buildings. Now, in Heroes IV, there are the Town Hall, the Castles, the Shipyard, the Caravan, the Prison, the Tavern, the Mage Guilds, and the structure that sells items. The number is greatly increased from Heroes III.
This does not help the depth of the game and makes many of these buildings a must-have. This, although creating a large number of possible buildings, leaves room for only about 3 or 4 unique buildings. I believe that this is not enough, and what is needed are more of them to cater for the town’s needs.

The Layout
Possibly the worst aspect of Heroes IV in my eyes. Everything is so bland.
Firstly, the towns are all the same. The interface for every town is the same depending on terrain. What is even more frustrating is that every building is in the same spot for every town. While this may be helpful to just know where everything is, after a while of playing the game, you would know that anyway. I despise of the way everything is set out. We all know the castle is in the top right, the grail in the top left, the town hall next to that, the 4th level structure between the town hall and the castle but one level down, the caravan to the right, the 3rd level structure to the left, and so on.
I loved the Heroes III layout where all of the town interfaces where different and every structure was in a different spot, and actually integrated into the terrain, a feature of Heroes III I especially enjoyed. The caves would form in that huge cliff of the Rampart Castle for the Gold Dragons, the Dungeon Grail structure was extremely well integrated into the front of that rock, the abundance of gold behind that, the pulsing of the evil eye dwelling…. Now what we see is a Griffin Cliff just popping out of the entirely flat ground. It looks very, very bad.
The same goes for the Behemoth Crag. Is it a Crag, or a man made rock with fire spurting from its eyes?
I sincerely hope that they (NWC and 3D0) do not utilise the same method for the layout of towns that were used in Heroes IV.

Creatures
For me, the no upgrades change in Heroes IV hasn’t impacted me too much.

No Upgrades
While this does decrease the amount of overall creatures in the game 66 compared to HIII 100+ is quite a big difference, I would like to see more individuality more than numbers, so I am happy what they’ve done here. I believe NWC has made the creatures unique and at the same time created a larger number of them. For Heroes V, I would like no upgrades but more creatures, maybe 80 or so.

Creatures in Towns
I have mixed emotions about this aspect of Heroes IV. While it is quite strategic to have to decide on which creature to buy, it does leave you with only 5 creatures, which really isn’t enough to give enough depth in a town, since in Necropolis, my decisions are the Cerberus, Vampires, and Bone Dragons, and this doesn’t include a shooter. It is a shame how that happens. So for Heroes V, I would like to incorporate that 80 creatures into 6 towns, with 6 recruitable creatures, and therefore making 72 creatures in towns, and 8 neutral creatures. This I think should work out well. The player has a choice of 12 creatures in each town, with 5 levels instead of 4. In my opinion, there is too big a gap between the levels in terms of strength.

Uniqueness of Creatures (Semi-new Idea)
It is evident that throughout the history of the Heroes series the number of mythological creatures has been diminishing. So, therefore I would like to see many more mythological creatures added to Heroes V than in Heroes IV. Creatures that were missing like Gorgons, Basilisks, Druids, Liches, Paladins, Rocs, Manticores, Wyverns, Gogs, Wraiths, Pegasi, and Hobgoblins. These are some of the mythological creatures, which were included in previous series and were not included in Heroes IV. Therefore, I would like to see more real creatures than made up ones such as ‘Evil Sorceresses’ in Heroes V.

Miscellaneous

Music for Heroes V
I would like to see (or hear) the music in Heroes V to have compilations of all other previous series, and the user is able to choose the theme for that terrain from the Heroes1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 version of it. It would enable you to have all different themes for every terrain and castle to suit your likings.

Spells
I have only one problem with the way a hero or creature casts spells. Every spell in that level costs the same. Again, this is has no depth whatsoever, and it incurs that every spell is just as good as each other, which is certainly not the case. This creates equity in all spells which something I am not fond of. I would prefer it that the cost of the spells be determined on how effective they are, not on what level they’re in.

Spell Casting (Idea)
This is an idea initially created by Grythandril:
When Heroes and creatures cast spell, instead of performing the same hand movements when casting a spell, the spell casting can become more elaborate by setting up a ceremony for stronger spells like Armageddon. The spell effects could also be turned off if the player doesn’t want to wait that long to cast a spell.

I thankyou for reading my thread down to this point, many of you older members would remember me for the length of my posts.
I look forward to seeing your replies. If you really feel strongly about your idea, do as
Incubus (Wesley) achieved by sending in that Mantis drawing to 3D0 and getting it published in the game.
I realise that I have not covered everything there is to say about the game, but I hope you can fill in the parts that I’ve missed and express any thoughts or opinions you have about the game, and about Heroes V.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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zergling
zergling

Tavern Dweller
posted October 03, 2002 11:10 AM

Do you still think HOMM series has a future? 3DO pushed this unfinished game out of the door just to make their financial report a little better. They fired two thirds of the NWC staff immediatedly after that just to save some money. They never thought about patching the idoitic AI, they never cared about their fans. All they wanted is cash, fast cash. So they recycled some old, didn't-make-into-the-original-game creatures, campaigns, maps, objects, put them (200Mb total) to a 700Mb CD and called it an expansion pack. Well I understand they need money badly, but it is sad that the HOMM die-hard fans have to pay.
____________

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 03, 2002 11:54 AM

A few comments...

The Thieves Guild

The new Thieves Guild does serve a purpose in Multiplayer since you could see if a player is cheating. (Increasing army strength at start and reducing it again at end of turn.) While it has a use, I'd rather that cheat codes were disabled in Multi Player.

Unfortunately, it often kills the suspense of the game so it's a  feature best left unused by the player.


The Marketplace

The adventure map doubles the exchange rates you trade with. This very quickly makes you a lot of money when selling excess resources late game. One of the shortcomings of the AI is that it doesn't seem to trade resources to get the resources it needs.


Wandering Guards
This has at least one negative effect. On bigger map wandering creatures will repeatedly block off caravan routes, especially routes to some of your creature dwellings. So you need to go out and clear them once every month or every sedond month.


Combat

AI tends to underestimate certain types of heroes, especially if they have a lot of tuition to boost them. The underestimate becomes greater the higher the level of the hero.


Siege Combat

There are too many ways to disable creatures on the Towers and nullify the bonus they give. You cast a spell to take away their turn, you hit them with direct damage spells or spells like poison/plague and then outwait them. Teleporting them outside. A melee creature on the Towers is best described as a sitting duck ready to be shot.

I don't really fancy the catapult destroying the walls. It would just raise the request again to repair the walls, and I don't think that's reasonable because the attacker should not be able to take it down to begin with.

The defender does need some additional features to boost defences and force the attacker to attack. It's all too easy for stale-mate situations to occur between two human players.


Creature Loyalty
I don't see the need to give further penalties for morale. The ones you have for mixing enemy alignments are already steep. Have you tried to fight with units having a poor morale? In your example, you don't get any additional penalties for mixing in more death creatures and I think that's the way it should be. The priest would get an additional -2 morale because the Vampires are undead. It's unrealistic to lower the morale of the Death creatures when you add MORE death creatures to the mix. You would expect it to work the other way around.

I believe that Morale and Luck should remain two different things. The H4 implementation of these things is actually quite good.


Heroes in Combat

With the correct skills a Hero can win against 40 level 4s. I'd say chances are on the Hero's side if you are properly equipped and have some access to basic/advanced magic skills. There are many ways to deal with the Medusas successfully.

I believe it still works the way as in H2. It's just so that you need a certain amount of improvements in a skill / level before you get offered other skills than combat. What's wrong in H4 is that these offers comes too late in the game. On a Medium Map you're probably ready for the final battle when you get the offer of a new third skill.


Creatures in Towns

It seems that many players don't really like the choice 'offered'. Perhaps, the game should incroporate a time-limit. You can build the second level 2, but 2 weeks must pass since you've built the first one. 3 weeks for the level 3 and 4 weeks for the level 4. Another method is to limit choices to 2 out of 3 creatures on each level.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Joel
Joel


Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
posted October 03, 2002 10:08 PM bonus applied.

I'm bored, thus my reply.;-)

ThE_HyDrA said:
Quote:
There are many aspects of the Adventure Map that are lacking, or do not serve enough purpose to worthy of a place on the map.
Agreed, although I think which are pointless would lead to an argument.
Quote:
The Thieves Guild
The disappearance of the Thieves Guild from the Adventure Map is a change I do not approve of. It makes vital information vital to anyone, and one can easily just look at the Thieves Guild, target the weakest player, and be done with it. Also the way the information is conveyed is too edifying, especially the Total Army strength.
 I disagree with both you and Djive.  Play a few more games, there are ways to fool the theives guild, making it appear that you are weaker than you are.  It is a much handier tool in the mind games people play in competetive matchs.  It also adds new elements to the game.  I like to play with random castles as do most of my opponents.  Being able to read the Thieves Guild helps me figure out what my opponent is so I can plan for his alignment before I meet him.  It's a high stakes guessing game that was never present in heroes 3.
Quote:
I would like to see to the Heroes III method once again utilised. And why would 3D0 put a Trading Post in when you can just get to the Marketplace through the toolbar!!!???
I played the map Unknown Lands last night and was able to get level 4s day 6 thanks to a trading post.  I would not have gotten them so soon with just my built in marketplace.  I think the trading post is a good idea for this very reason.
Quote:
Wandering Guards
I think this change is good, but really doesn’t have too much of an impact on how the game is played.
Play some more games.  I currently have played 18 games for toh and in at least 2 of them, wandering guards decided the outcome.  It's too easy to be blindsided or be overconfidant enough to lose sight of how vulnerable you can be if you're not careful.  And if you play on the harder difficulties wandering guards are an even bigger hazard that will affect gameplay.  Nothing sucks more then getting jumped by a band of angels because your time ran out.
Quote:
Heroes in Combat
While I praise the idea that NWC and 3D0 had, I don’t like the way they incorporated it into the battle. While I do believe it is realistic, it just doesn’t work at later stages in the game.
I think NWC got this right.  It doesn't make sense that a level 20 hero should be able to kill dozens and scores of creatures alone.  I think that if you want a game like that you should go play DiabloII.  I really think the balance between heroes and creatures is close to flawless.  Neither are that powerful alone, but become unstoppable together.  That's how it should be in my opinion.

For the most part I agree with the rest of your opinions, especially the interface.  It's too bland for my tastes. although I'm starting to get used to it.....even enjoying it to some degree.  Let's just say I think it grows on you, give it time.  

Good post ThE_HyDrA.  I may not agree with it all but it's nice to see a well thought out post.

Djive said:
Quote:
Unfortunately, it often kills the suspense of the game so it's a feature best left unused by the player.
 It only adds to the suspense.  If you're behind you are forced to play harder and worry more.  How does that kill suspense?  Do you play in tournaments Djive?  If not I can see why you think it kills it, but in a competetive game it only adds to it.  Also see my reply above for a little more.

Other then that, well said!

Zergling:  It's a business.  3DO had their reasons.  It's easy to post about how bad a company is for doing something, it's harder to understand and forgive a company for doing what they can to survive.  

I'm just glad we can, finally, play multi as I'm finding it a lot of fun.  More so than heroes 3 multi.        

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 03, 2002 10:34 PM
Edited By: Djive on 3 Oct 2002

Quote:
I played the map Unknown Lands last night and was able to get level 4s day 6 thanks to a trading post.  I would not have gotten them so soon with just my built in marketplace.  I think the trading post is a good idea for this very reason.


Hmmm.. is that map very rich or did you play one intermediate difficulty or so? Or do you start off with a lot of troops? Normally, I can't afford the level 4 until week 3-5. (Depending on map, difficulty and alignment played.) And this even if I trade down to my last additional resource (which i generally do to get the level 4).

Now I wonder: can you really guess the opponent's alignment by day 6 using the Thieves Guild?

Quote:
It only adds to the suspense.  If you're behind you are forced to play harder and worry more.  How does that kill suspense?  Do you play in tournaments Djive?  If not I can see why you think it kills it, but in a competetive game it only adds to it.  Also see my reply above for a little more.


I was speaking for single-player. In multi-player the new Thieves Guild makes better sense. Against the poor AI it does not. In Multi once you've planned your turn you can see how your opponent does in the Thieves Guild. I saw that it's updated dynamically, so I believe I would use that spy option. You have to consider both army strength and wealth. A player with more money can quickly increase their army strength by buying unrecruited creatures.

I'll probably start to play some Multiplayer soon. I've got a connection that allows it a while back, and I'm in the process of getting a better computer.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Joel
Joel


Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
posted October 03, 2002 11:02 PM

Answers, I hope

Unknown Lands is a medium rich map.  There's not a lot of free resources/money laying around but there is a bit that's guarded.  Including two gold mines within a turn of your starting town.  One guarded by random level 2s that I took day 3 and another guarded by random level 3s that I took day 6.

It was a multiplayer match so we played on intermediate, we both didn't have the much time.  (The harder diffs usually make multi games a lot longer, in my experience.)

Normal starting troops, about 20 of each level 1 with another 15 recruitable in town, but no starting hero.  There are no other mines other than the 2 gold mines and a wood and ore.  That's why the trading post was so important.

Thieves Guild:
It depends on the map but yes, you usually can make an accurate guess thanks to thieves guild info.  Order and Stronghold are the slowest towns so they will take gold mines/towns slower.  Necro will jump ahead right away thanks to easy to get lvl 3s.  Order often starts with a lord and this shows up as higher income on turn one.  

If army strength stays low and then jumps mid week 2, it usually means opponent is Chaos and just bought a dragon.

If you have level 4s early and your opponent's army strength is higher it probably means opponent is Nature and has bought creatures from the Portal.


These are just a few of the things that you can guess on.  As you play more you'll start to notice trends on maps in the guild which will help pinpoint exatly where and what your opponent is up to.

A lot of people just ask what you are or tell you what they are, I find it more enjoyable to guess.  

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 04, 2002 05:03 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 4 Oct 2002

My Thoughts.....

Firstly, thankyou for the replies, Joel, Djive and Zergling.
Naturally, there are going to be differing thoughts, so I will try to establish a consensus for the Heroes V ideas.

Zergling
Well, it is natural for companies to want money. Why do they want money? So they can accomplish two main things.
1. Keep their own company running and working properly.
2. So they can produce more games for us and then continue making money for other games.
They fired 2/3 of NWC so they could continue making Heroes. I think they're going to continue as long as they think they have the resources to create Heroes V, I'll keep following their progress.

Djive 1

"The new Thieves Guild does serve a purpose in Multiplayer since you could see if a player is cheating."

While that may be so, it has no context in the actual game. Knowing if a player is cheating is secondary, the Thieves Guild is there to give information, not to verify that someone is cheating.
I still like the Heroes II way as it doesn't give too much, but at the same time, it provides handy information like best creature, number of mines and towns owned, and their best hero. It concentrates on the individual aspects not the whole thing.

"The adventure map doubles the exchange rates you trade with."

OK. Sorry I had't actually used it since I assumed that it would have the same effect. To be honest, I've only come across one in my time of playing many, many games.


"On bigger map wandering creatures will repeatedly block off caravan routes, especially routes to some of your creature dwellings."

Indeed that is true. I finished playing a map where what protected me from an opponent were a company of level 2 creatures. They couldn't pass the guards which helped to easily crush them later in the game.

"You cast a spell to take away their turn, you hit them with direct damage spells or spells like poison/plague and then outwait them. Teleporting them outside. A melee creature on the Towers is best described as a sitting duck ready to be shot."

While these spells may immobilise one of the creatures, the only real spell that can have a true potent effect on them is the Mass Forgetfullness Spell (if there was such a thing). The next best spell to use is to separately cast Forgetfullness on all three, it immobilises them for the whole battle. To have one creature disabled is one thing to have them all disabled is a different matter.
I agree that a melee creature on a tower is an easy target. But a human player would never place it there, and if they did, it would have to be faster creature or hero, as then they can quickly get out of it.

"It would just raise the request again to repair the walls, and I don't think that's reasonable because the attacker should not be able to take it down to begin with."

I really don't follow you there. When the walls are destroyed, they are automatically built back up. I don't see a problem with this. I fancy catapults as you don't have to sacrifice creatures or spell points in getting your creatures to inflitrate the premisis. I also said that I would like the aspect of knocking the gate down to stay, so it really doesn't make too much of a difference.

"It's all too easy for stale-mate situations to occur between two human players."

Alas this is true, this is an common occurrence. Really, there are ways to combat this. Just simply attack the wall with a summoned creature or weaker hero, and then take the rest of your army through.

"It's unrealistic to lower the morale of the Death creatures when you add MORE death creatures to the mix."

I get you there. Maybe if we have a better morale system for higher morale such as a better, more effective high morale bonus, the low morale bonus may not sound so extreme. I'm not exactly sure what that could be though.....

"With the correct skills a Hero can win against 40 level 4s."

Somehow I very much doubt that. Say this is against 40 Black Dragons. I don't believe a single hero, lets say level 40 could destroy 16,000 HP all on its own. It isn't what Heroes are meant to do.
My complaint with this feature is that a ranged attacker can clear the first line of you rarmy, or when it moves, and simply shoot at the hero. Now the equivalent of level 2 ranged attackers and a hero is about level 25 vs 100 or so. So with these figures, taking it that the hero is a spellcaster, the ranged attacker shoots, gone in one.

Joel 1

"It is a much handier tool in the mind games people play in competetive matchs."

I said it was a more edifying tool did I not? This is the problem, it gives away too much information, and that means people can play guessing games like that to determine things and possibly outcomes.

"Nothing sucks more then getting jumped by a band of angels because your time ran out."

Play a few more games. When you can see that you are in the line of fire, just stay one block out of the yellow area. It is that easy. If you don't take heed of those yellow arrows, annoying things like that are bound to happen/

"Neither are that powerful alone, but become unstoppable together."

I don't agree with the first part. Alone, they both can be very powerful. Fireguards can cast the Disintegrate spell that does over 1,200 damage. A Chain Lighting Spell that does about 1,500 all up. Some Hydras, deal maybe 5,000 damage to one enemy, but another 5,000 each to the other three. If that isn't powerful, I'm not sure what is.
I do agree with the last part, they are indeed unstoppable together creatures and heroes coexist well and compliment each others abilities.

Djive 2

"I can't afford the level 4 until week 3-5."

This is the same for me. I always play on Champion difficulty and that is about the range I look to purchase level 4s. You could purchase them earlier, but that would mean you would be left in a dire financial situation, and not able to use your strengths, getting 750 a day at those times is not acceptable.

Joel 2

"Order and Stronghold are the slowest towns so they will take gold mines/towns slower. Necro will jump ahead right away thanks to easy to get lvl 3s. Order often starts with a lord and this shows up as higher income on turn one."

While what you said is true, you have identified only 3 towns, and everyone, even the AI has differing gameplans depending on what resources can be found or produced in the area. This wouldn't be an accurate guess by just relying on the Thieves Guild.

"If army strength stays low and then jumps mid week 2, it usually means opponent is Chaos and just bought a dragon"

Same dif. here, too. When I play, I play on Champion and you'd be well on your way if you could get Dragons in week 2. This could also be mistaken for Necropolis, as they can get their level 4 dwelling quite easily too.  There is no certain way by telling what alignment your opponent is through the Thieves Guild.

Thanks again for all your replies.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Joel
Joel


Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
posted October 04, 2002 07:51 AM
Edited By: Joel on 4 Oct 2002

It's obvious that you and I are playing different games ThE_HyDrA.  I don't play the computer and I try to end each game before the first month.  I don't have a week to play a game on champion, neither do I find beating a crippled AI fun.

Quote:
I said it was a more edifying tool did I not? This is the problem, it gives away too much information, and that means people can play guessing games like that to determine things and possibly outcomes.
And
Quote:
This wouldn't be an accurate guess by just relying on the Thieves Guild.
 Which is it ThE_HyDrA?  Is it too edifying or is it not accurate enough?  It can't be both.

It's accurate enough for me, while at the same time gives less information than you could find in a game of heroes 3. I think it's great and only accentuates the game.  If you disagree I suggest you stop playing the AI and your friends in hotseat.  Maybe then you can appreciate my point of view.

Quote:
When you can see that you are in the line of fire, just stay one block out of the yellow area. It is that easy. If you don't take heed of those yellow arrows, annoying things like that are bound to happen/
 Next time read what I wrote.  I'm very familiar with the green and yellow arrows but they don't do you much good when the monsters are set to "wandering" or when your time runs out while moving through a yellow arrow zone.  

I suggest you try a few games in gamespy if you're disappointed overall in heroes 4.  It's a lot more fun, exciting and dynamic than beating an AI for the 20th time on champion.
 
For heroes 5 I would like them to add more building paths, bring back hero specialties and just work on balancing things better.  Ohh yeah, and design a better interface, include a RMG, and finally, make sure the multiplayer works well before shipping the game out.  

I think the wandering guards, thieves guild, map scripting, creature generation and fog of war have made for a better game, and I hope they stay around for the sequels.


Edited because I was derailing the thread.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 04, 2002 10:35 AM

Good discussion here.

About town defences:

You would consider to place melee creatures there after the walls are breached. Or else you're missing the bonuses the towers give, and probably the enemy gets them instead. Only if you place the creature there you have Terror / Wasp Swarm / Confusion / Song of Peace coming your way. (And these are comparatively nice spells.)

Quote:
I really don't follow you there. When the walls are destroyed, they are automatically built back up.


It was one of the more common wishes before H4 that the walls would not be automatically built up.

Quote:
Somehow I very much doubt that. Say this is against 40 Black Dragons. I don't believe a single hero, lets say level 40 could destroy 16,000 HP all on its own. It isn't what Heroes are meant to do.


Now, this is 80 normal level 4 creatures. You would need to reduce it to 20 Blackies. I did assume here that you have proper skills/artifacts to take the creature out.

Some creatures I will attack a lot more readily than others. And some I will attack only if I got 100% Magic Resistance, and when I have that they're much easier to deal with.

Doing an estimate of damage from the creatures I'd say the number you can take out is a bit less, but it depends a bit on the case. Also if you have an Immortality potion applied you can always try to hit them. If the creatures are too strong, then hero flees to Town.

The danger zone is not reliable. It is as Joel says. Some creatures wanders and if they walk in your direction they will hit you even though you think you are safe.

It has happened to me several times.


____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted October 04, 2002 04:15 PM

I Have but two smaller things to add to the discussion here..

#1 about Theives Guild...

Kingdom army strength

This is absolutely hilarious.. Its of no indication at all as to how strong an opposing force POTENTIALLY can be..

Have you noticed the guage rising as your garrison accumulates? Or is there a "Total Kingdom Treasury" gauge? nope and nope..  

I have "lured" opponents into my lands under the ruse (maybe correct spelling) of a weak army. Not via chat either.. then they appear, I buy out garrison with the 20-30K gold saved.. and poof my kingdom army strength is much higher than theirs.

I would definately say that as in Heroes3 seeing the best unit.. best hero + stats is Much more powerful a resource.

I mean really? when playing an H4 game does it matter so much how strong an army is? or How strong the main bad-ass hero is you will have to kill 7 or 8 times in the combat?

I'll fight 100 black dragons before I'd like to tangle with 5 GM Barbarians at say level 22 each.

And secondly..

As for The_Hydras ideas on spell rituals and such.. I'd like to see implemented some of the stronger spells.. ie: Armageddon, Sanctuary, Hand of Death, ect ect.. taking more than 1 round to fully cast.. where as your hero would perform his/her ritual throughout a number of rounds to accomplish the feat.. Also I'd like to see a distraction feature in play.. where if a hero took say 50% of his/her total health the casting would be cancelled.. of course skills or artifacts could be added to avoid such a tragic loss..

-------------------------
Hmmm I guess I've decided to comment more..

The creature levels.. I think is far far too low.. I would prefer maybe 9 or even 10 levels per town.. Upgrades .. hmm I can do without a total creature upgrade although I do like it better.. It is much more menacing in Heroes3 when I have to fight a pack of giants, or some such.. and wondering.. can I kill that week 2 or will that stack include 6 titans! My suggestion here is too allow for specialty structures that effectively upgrade creatures.. maybe even in a once per week type event.  Say you have an Angel fine and dandy.. then you need to build a holy chapel or some such structure to activate the angels ressurection ability.. Whereas the statistics of an individual do not change, but the player would be able to give it added features .. say for a 4000 gold and handful of resources structure...

Castles .. it seems silly to me that a castle and a mere fort attract the same number of followers to your area. I mean if I were a genie and I saw a glorious academy with towering walls and turrets, I'd prolly pledge my allegiance there before a tin roof shack set amidst a rampart wall..

In the defense aspect of them.. I don't find it difficult to attack or defend (obviously) a castle built in H4.. In fact, I don't find enough advantage to the castle upgrade to warrant the cost of it.

Market place I have to agree is a bit lenient with their trades.. I'd prefer to always have the market available, but to have the exchanges more like in heroes3, whereas the town has a "built-in" market that can be accesed through the menu, however for each new "pseudo-market" you accuire the exchange would drop an extent.

The Most major thing I would change in the skill system is Scouting.. I would reverse the scouting skill and pathfind skills.. where pathfind would become the primary and able to be GM without prerequisite in other secondaries..

I guess thats all for right now..

But I would add..

about the 40 level 4 thingy....

My hero a lv24 Barbarian on a medium multi player map. killed 28 Mantis without much trouble.. 2 immortality, ogres club of throwing, and quickness potion.  The on to take the dragon city..

So my vote goes to sure he can kill 40 somethings

--------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 05, 2002 05:33 AM

Thanks for keeping on topic while partaking in this discussion

OK. The main point of this thread is to come up with ideas to be implemented into Heroes V. I have given my ideas, and you have also given me some of yours. Below this text I shall display what members other than myself have thought of in terms of ideas for Heroes V.

Adventure Map
Joel:
For heroes 5 I would like them to add more building paths, bring back hero specialties and just work on balancing things better.

Destro23:
I'd prefer to always have the market available, but to have the exchanges more like in heroes3, whereas the town has a "built-in" market that can be accesed through the menu, however for each new "pseudo-market" you accuire the exchange would drop an extent.

Hero Related
Destro23:
The Most major thing I would change in the skill system is Scouting.. I would reverse the scouting skill and pathfind skills.. where pathfind would become the primary and able to be GM without prerequisite in other secondaries..

taking more than 1 round to fully cast.. where as your hero would perform his/her ritual throughout a number of rounds to accomplish the feat.. Also I'd like to see a distraction feature in play.. where if a hero took say 50% of his/her total health the casting would be cancelled

Miscellaneous
Joel:
Ohh yeah, and design a better interface, include a RMG, and finally, make sure the multiplayer works well before shipping the game out.
I think the wandering guards, thieves guild, map scripting, creature generation and fog of war have made for a better game, and I hope they stay around for the sequels.

Destro23:
Castles .. it seems silly to me that a castle and a mere fort attract the same number of followers to your area. I mean if I were a genie and I saw a glorious academy with towering walls and turrets, I'd prolly pledge my allegiance there before a tin roof shack set amidst a rampart wall..

My suggestion here is too allow for specialty structures that effectively upgrade creatures.. maybe even in a once per week type event. Say you have an Angel fine and dandy.. then you need to build a holy chapel or some such structure to activate the angels ressurection ability.. Whereas the statistics of an individual do not change, but the player would be able to give it added features .. say for a 4000 gold and handful of resources structure...

I am assuming everyone agrees on these ideas for Heroes V, otherwise speak-out .

My Replies.

Joel
"I don't play the computer and I try to end each game before the first month. I don't have a week to play a game on champion, neither do I find beating a crippled AI fun."

OK. Part of that is true. I play the computer, but I don't and can't defeat the computer and win in the first month on most maps. For me, it doesn't take a week to play on the champion difficulty, I finished Marauders of the High Seas in a very short time on Champion difficulty. While it may be slightly crippled, I try to make the challenge as difficult as possible by putting it on Champion.

"Is it too edifying or is it not accurate enough? It can't be both."

Actually, it can be. I have used these two words in different contexts, and it can't obviously apply to the same thing. For the first example, I was talking about the Thieves Guild relating to Heroes II. While Heroes II gave more areas of information, they weren't as important or as revealing as Heroes IV's. Heroes II gave kingdom army strength, but for all you know, they could have been a level one creature apart. In Heroes IV, you can clearly tell (even if it isn't to the exact point) what is tema is more powerful at the present moment.
In the second instance, I was comparing the Thieves Guild to the way you like to utilise it; by guessing other peoples alignments. While it does give out enough information for normal usage, how quickly the army grows and when it grows the quickest isn't an accurate indication of what alignment it is.
See where the difference is?

"Next time read what I wrote."

I read what you wrote, at the time I thought what you meant is the movement turn of your hero had run out, not the Time limit of the ToH. If you don't want that to happen, just make a decision and think if you can make it through the danger area in the amount of time left.

"I suggest you try a few games in gamespy if you're disappointed overall in heroes 4. It's a lot more fun, exciting and dynamic than beating an AI for the 20th time on champion."

Believe me, I would If I could. The reason I don't is because my 28.8Kbps modem is exactly state of the art. I thought about playing online when the patch came out, but I saw people complaining about how paiinfully slow it was on a 56.6K, so I thought, forget it.
I'm sure it is more exciting and dynamic, but for now, beating Champion AI for the 20th time is all I can do. And no, I'm certainly not bored with Heroes IV, I think it is much better than III. I didn't really like III compared to II to be honest.

Djive

"You would consider to place melee creatures there after the walls are breached. Or else you're missing the bonuses the towers give, and probably the enemy gets them instead."

Sorry for not making myself clear, I was referring to the attacker, not the defender, which I assume you're speaking of. I agree with your strategies for this section.

"The danger zone is not reliable. It is as Joel says. Some creatures wanders and if they walk in your direction they will hit you even though you think you are safe."

As of yet, It hasn't happened to me. I try to be pretty careful when dealing with the yellow arrows, it is very annoying having to chase down an enemy and then realising you'll stop in the yellow area, where the creature stacks there could be stronger than you.

Destro23

"Its of no indication at all as to how strong an opposing force POTENTIALLY can be.."

OK. You said it yourself, the key word there is Pot-ent-ially. I agree with you here. While a certain army may be the strongest one week, another one may have lept up and taken the lead again, and the trend could keep going. But I do believe that once things level out, and players start taking a few more towns, I could say that it gives a very good indication of their strength.

"I'll fight 100 black dragons before I'd like to tangle with 5 GM Barbarians at say level 22 each."

I would agree with you there. Heroes work together well especially at high levels. I would think the barbarians would do a good job of taking these Black Dragons down.

"taking more than 1 round to fully cast.. where as your hero would perform his/her ritual throughout a number of rounds to accomplish the feat.. Also I'd like to see a distraction feature in play.. where if a hero took say 50% of his/her total health the casting would be cancelled"

I did have the first part of that in mind-big spells taking more than one round to cast. It does add to the excitment of the battle and the urgency for the player to stop the spell from functioning to its full strength.
I also like the idea you came up with about the distraction feature. My interpretation of it is say a creature attacks the hero in the middle of his ritual, the spell may only do 25% damage depending on how many turns he has missed out on.

"I think is far far too low.. I would prefer maybe 9 or even 10 levels per town.. Upgrades .."

I have mixed emotions on this comment. While I agree that the amount of creature levels is too low, i don't relish the idea of having to upgrade every structure I buy. I like the feature of no upgrades in Heroes IV and I believe it adds to the uniqueness of the creatures instead of having the 'better clone' roaming around the battlefield. It also wrecks the economy that Heroes IV encompasses.
I think 9-10 levels is too much, as then the person would needs sooooo many resources and soooo much time that the map would be a complete slugfest all the way through. When you have a level 6 creature, you instantly think oh! I still need to get a level 7 creature, and so on. With upgrades on top of that, I don't think I could handle so many creatures!

"Whereas the statistics of an individual do not change, but the player would be able to give it added features .."

I think this gives me less reason to have upgrades, since I don't really like it how you have to upgrade a creature for some special advantages. I'd just like it to have the creature, and that's it.

"I mean if I were a genie and I saw a glorious academy with towering walls and turrets, I'd prolly pledge my allegiance there before a tin roof shack set amidst a rampart wall.."

Totally agree on this. Seems like a very logical idea. According to my memory, it worked the same way in Heroes III.

Thanks again for your ideas and thoughts, I hope to see more.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted October 05, 2002 05:43 PM bonus applied.

ok.. Keeping on track..

Hydra I think you may have misunderstood my post relating to the guilds Kingdom army strength..

I can play a full game of H4 using a few heroes, and maybe a lv4 or even something useful to the hero and smaller, such as a genie, ogre magi, ect.. Creatures will accumulate in the garrison and gold in the treasury.. For this reason I say the Guild is Unreliable in giving accurate information..

Again my 2 heroes say lv15 are fully capable of killing pretty much anything on the map.. I've lost my week or 2 weeks worth of troops along the way somewhere.. so I effectively have 0 kingdom army strength.. When seeing an opponent who is "apparently blowing me away" on the army screen I can buy out garrison, have this army shoot much higher or even out and have a surprising battle for my opponent.

I find this tactic EXTREMELY effective when using stronghold.. However it seems to me I am discussing H4 strategy and not H5 wishes..

For me the ideal H5 theives guild gives this inforamtion..
1. Income (Including grail income..)
2. # of towns
3. Number of Heroes
4. Treasury levels

The treasury level feature I think could be an amazing strategic peice for both sides.. both attacking and attempting to conceal resources.

Through such a feature one could roughly guage and make educated guesses as to whether an opposing army will have :

1. Enough money to surrender
2. A substantial reinforcement arriving
3. A major take.. ie dragon city
4. Monitoring levels to determine how much/little cash a kingdom is using for survival.
5. What might be possible building wise, early on in the game.

Its my opinion that of course economy and economic management is a major part of the heroes balance system and why not have a way to monitor it.. It can only make the game deeper

Another kind of annoyance I have with H4 is the arsenal/blacksmith type structures.. Although of course I greatly appreciate the aid they give.. I don't like the similarities between them.. and the cost differences.

I am unsure of one thing.. The potion of Immortality .. I am not sure whether I like this or not.  I find it maybe a little too common.  And for me these beautiful little potions make the battles far far to easy... I think that in future heroes these should be either much more expensive.. maybe even up to 5K gold a pop.. or far more rare.. like your jumping up and down when you find one in medicine wagon.  This would add some challenge to the game as well as prohibiting people like me, who like to storm banks, cragons, lv4 units ect ect with some high powered heroes and 30 potions per hero..

ok maybe thats exagerating a little.. but you get the picture.

I've played some multi player games where a hero(s) have been killed up to 5 times before finally dropping off the battlefeild permanently.. I find this both annoying and somewhat repeditive.

Now about the costs... why do the range in price for the structure??? And even the purely might town I think has the most expensive blacksmith.. to outfit themselves with weapons and armor? while a magic town like academy can purchase it much cheaper?  This is a feature I'd like to see removed completely.. Functioning only as an exterior building. and for some towns such as stronghold, an in house structure.

The economy in Heroes4 also I feel is very flawed,, well I shouldn't say that.. but some aspects are very flawed. Such as the gold mine.

GOld mines giving the same income as the highest economical developement one can build in a town (excluding grail) is ridiculous.. Just imagine if in H3 goldmines gave 4000 gold per day.. For single player this is not a huge issue, as the computer would be too dumb to likely take an unguarded gold mine unless he needed to travel encounter free for weeks to obtain it..
But in Multi Player.. such things as starting alignments. Mine guards.. and many other things make the goldmine too powerful in my opinion.

My suggestion here is this..

3 types of goldmines

1: prebuilt functining mine.. provides 500gold per day.
2: Abandoned mine.. hundreds of whatevers.. 750gold per day.
3: Godl Vien... the building costs enough that the 1K gold is a fair if not underrated advantage.

----------------

In relation to my thoughts on creature numbers.. levels upgrades ect.. I've rethought a bit and added some things.

9-10 levels might have been an exageration.

lets say 5-7 levels would more than suffice for me. With my upgrade idea..

More on Upgrading structures..

This was not at all meant to induce a Devil --- Arch Devil type syndrome.. nor was it a second building of massive resource costs.

My thought is to have your base unit.. here we will use the example of Devils from H4
assume stats remain same for both versions.

SO we have the devil who may teleport anywhere on the screen to attack an opponent. (keep in mind this is not a suggestion but an example)

We build the devils structure..
after completing this structure a new specialty structure.. or better yet two specialty structures become available for purchase.. only 1 can be built, and each donate a new ability to the devil creature.

say we have

Tacticians Feilds.. Devils gain the no retaliation feature.
and
Soul Chamber.. Devils gain a life drain ability..

Now the twist..

if by some stroke of unbeleivable luck the developer could balance the two upgrades almost perfectly..

AND... the creature effected did not change any appearance, statistics, or name.. the opponent would have no idea wether if an "agmentation" had occured, which one or any..

if this could be done for even 4 levels of creatures it would make a dramatic impact on the strategic impact of these creatures and the possible outcomes.

ok.. well thats all for now..

Will reply later on more...


----------------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 06, 2002 10:39 AM

Heroes V Wishes

I have some Ideas, but first I'll post my comments on Destro23's ideas, which overall, I like.

"For this reason I say the Guild is Unreliable in giving accurate information.."

While I said I think the Theives Guild gives away too much information compared to Heroes 2, I didn't say anything about being accurate. In fact, I agree with you on that issue. It is unreliable on giving pinpoint information.
The difference is that the Thieves Guild in Heroes IV actually has a bar graph displaying the relative strengths of kingdoms. Heroes II only out the flags corresponding to the player in order of strength, which shows strength, but not relative strengths as such. In this way, I believe Heroes IV gives out too much information, and Joel must agree with me since he says he can guess the opponents alignment, something I haven't heard anyone to be able to do.

"For me the ideal H5 theives guild gives this inforamtion..
1. Income (Including grail income..)
2. # of towns
3. Number of Heroes
4. Treasury levels"

OK. I agree with your views on this particular topic, but I would just like to add a few more things.

1. Income: This would mean for me overall income such as resources-not just gold. It should also include artifact bonuses like the purse of Gold, etc.
2. Number of Towns: Nothing to add.
3. Number of Heroes: Yes, and eventually what their strongest hero is, but releasing no other information on it.
4. Treasury levels: I think this would be a good addition, it gives away much vital information as it goes down, since it is such a fickle criteria....
5. Kingdom Army Strength in the way that Heroes II displayed it.

"Its my opinion that of course economy and economic management is a major part of the heroes balance system and why not have a way to monitor it.."

Sure, it sounds good. Overall it may be a bit too revealing for the player with the Thieves Guild. Maybe it can revert back to the Heroes II method where it gave out more information corresponding with how many thieves guilds you owned throughout the castles. The treasruy feature could be the last information gained. Although I would still like to see those Heroes II version of the 'Oracle' which would reveal all information that a fully-built Thieves' Guild would-but on the Adventure Map.

"And for me these beautiful little potions make the battles far far to easy"

To be honest, I really don't use potion that much in battle, Potion of Immortality being the exception for large battles. Another potion I use at low levels when I haven't learnt many spells is Demon Fire, and another is the Potion of Healing.
I do agree with the potion of Immortality abundance. I would certainly like to see their levels decrease throughout the course of Heroes V.

"Functioning only as an exterior building."

Agreed. Just keep the Blacksmith as an external structure. It is really needed too much and shouldn't be included in a castle. It should be replaced by more unique buildings.

"Just imagine if in H3 goldmines gave 4000 gold per day.."

Valid point there. I think the Heroes V economy should be between the economy of Heroes II and 3, with the City Hall producing about 2,000-2,500 gold, and Gold Mines with the usual 1,000, which I believe would even it up a bit more.

"lets say 5-7 levels would more than suffice for me. With my upgrade idea.."

OK. 5-7 levels seems to work well for me too.

"or better yet two specialty structures become available for purchase.. only 1 can be built, and each donate a new ability to the devil creature."

A very nice idea indeed. It could revolutionise Heroes of Might and Magic creatures and creature upgrades! I love this idea, one thing, I think the buildings should cost about 2,000 gold at the most, otherwise it wrecks the importance of other buildings.
With this 5-7 levels idea, is your thought with choices of creatures or not with choices of creatures? I really wouldn't mind, but if there werent choices, maybe 5 levels, and if there were, maybe 7.

"if this could be done for even 4 levels of creatures"

LOL. I was inferring that it would be done for all of them.

More of my Wishes

Hero-Apprentice and Might and Magic Hero experience
My idea here is when a hero is a high level, maybe 15+, hhe or she has a chance of mastering the 'scholar' skill. This is similar to the scholar of HIII where it taught you some skills.
OK. We know how heroes gain experience from many things, the main one being combat. Now, since fighting heroes fight and spellcasting heroes cast spells, shouldn't only the might hero gain experience by fighting in battle? (More about that later) This is where my idea comes in, one can recruit a normal hero, as per usual, but instead of taking experience from battles, the newly bought hero can also acquire it from a mentor, which is your higher level hero. The higher the level of the scholar skill, the less time it takes to teach the smaller hero skills. Of course, this would happen at a reasonably slow rate, possible 50 experience per day at the highest level. The hero could still gain experience as per usual.

The other idea I had to do with heroes is it is a common fact that heroes-might and magic gain experience from battle. But, my proposal is if the two separate types get the same experience from the same combat, and acquire different skills from the same battle???? This happens to a certain extent with the division of structures like the library and veteran's guild. But the division is yet to occur in battles. So, instead of overall experience, the experience taken away from battle can be measured in three ways, which both coincide:

Might Hero:
1. How strong the opponents who were faced were: (current)
2. How many that hero defeated
3. How many of those where defeated with a melee object.

Magic Hero:
1. How strong the opponents who were faced were: (current)
2. How many that hero defeated
3. How many of these were defeated with spells-this can be spells cast on other creatures, prevention spells which enabled other creatures to attack them when they couldn't have, (Say forgetfullnes, disrupting ray) and DD spells.

I think this should work out, since Magic and Might Heroes can be defined (even through classes) and are not entirely might or magic, which means that they don't have to use only might and only magic all the time.
My idea also allows for heroes to gain experience the normal way. If 3. is applied for both Heroes, their experience gained is doubled(X2), when the current way is used, it stays the same(X1) and when the opposite of 3. is used, it is halved (X0.5).

I would appreaciate any feedback on my post.
____________
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"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted October 06, 2002 03:16 PM

Quote:
Might Hero:
1. How strong the opponents who were faced were: (current)
2. How many that hero defeated
3. How many of those where defeated with a melee object.

Magic Hero:
1. How strong the opponents who were faced were: (current)
2. How many that hero defeated
3. How many of these were defeated with spells-this can be spells cast on other creatures, prevention spells which enabled other creatures to attack them when they couldn't have, (Say forgetfullnes, disrupting ray) and DD spells.

I think this should work out, since Magic and Might Heroes can be defined (even through classes) and are not entirely might or magic, which means that they don't have to use only might and only magic all the time.
My idea also allows for heroes to gain experience the normal way. If 3. is applied for both Heroes, their experience gained is doubled(X2), when the current way is used, it stays the same(X1) and when the opposite of 3. is used, it is halved (X0.5).


A couple of things...

 Maybe you just forgot to mention that, but anyway, the 3. for the might hero should be both melee and ranged.

 Also, I think that whether the hero is Might or Magic should be decided by his skills. Maybe if he has a magic/might skill (at least one) on Expert or higher then he is concidered a magic/might hero. In the case when he has, let's say M. Combat and Exp. Death Magic he's a Mixed hero and in that case it will work as 1.
  [now that I've reviewed my idea I see it has some serious flaws, but I'll post it anyway]

  The thing that I'm concerned about is what to do with Exp "gained" by your creatures. It can't just dissapear, but it wasn't the hero who killed monsters for the Exp. The case may be even more complicated in an army with multiple heroes, as with one hero you could atleast assign the correct experience as you know how the enemies were killed.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 06, 2002 08:23 PM
Edited By: Djive on 6 Oct 2002

"4. Treasury levels"

What do you include in "Treasury levels"? If you mean # of Treasuries built, then I think not. It should be bundled into income. There's no need to give away that a player is playing Academy (or whichever town has this structure.) Or do you here mean how much money and resources the player has at the moment?

"Agreed. Just keep the Blacksmith as an external structure. It is really needed too much and shouldn't be included in a castle. It should be replaced by more unique buildings."

Why not have them in Towns? They are one of the places that you could build in towns and makes sense there. I'd say introduce upgrades of the buildings instead to offer more things.

When it comes to the Gold Mines, I believe they did a good thing when they reduced the financial importance of the towns. The towns are important enough as creature generators. Perhaps, the Nobility skill of the Governer could give a % bonus to the Town's income. (After all a better governer will govern better), but apart from that I believe the reduced income of towns is a good thing.

The analogue with H3 isn't really valid, since economy has been slowed down and in H4 you're required to plunder creature banks early on to get money and resources (unless you have 2-3 Gold Mines nearby).


I don't think you can use the Might / Magic division for gaining XP.

A Thief and a Lord has no way to deal damage in combat. So they wouldn't gain levels. Also only Order and Chaos Mages habitually deal direct damage by casting spells. The way they're doing it now is the best one. Just allot XP according to Hero level as they do now. It's a good system. (I don't agree with the level-up scheme at the higher levels thugh.)

I don't think that XP award should depend on actions. Because this could have a tendency to prolong combats, because a player want's to maximize a certain hero's XP gain. I don't think this is the way to go.

Creature levels:
I would prefer specialized artifacts to be brought to town and used to upgrade an existing dwelling. once the upgrade is made all creatures that player controls automatically get the ability. This would make it more important to keep towns where you have these upgrades, because you wouldn't find the required artifacts everywhere. Also, the upgrade would also be associated with a cost to pay for the upgrade/benefit the dwelling gives. And this would depend on how useful the upgrade is.

Fort, Citadels and Castles: These should have more benefits than they have now or they should include upgrades that can be built to expand a Citadel or Castle. (Like Arrow Towers or other things.) Would also be nice if the strength of the defences depended on how long you've owned the town.

Oh, and since this is a good discussion a few more bonuses will be applied to this thread. Someone else already gave ThE_HyDrA a QP. Both Destro and Joel will get one also for their contribution to the discussion.

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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted October 08, 2002 01:41 AM

My contribution...

Quote:
H4 was a huge shock to the Heroes playing world-maybe too much had changed from the previous Heroes series too soon. These things may have lead to its initial hatred: 4 levels, no upgrades, heroes in combat, new magic system, and the new hero classes.


I don't think it was so much the change, but the fact that many gamers expected so much more to come from the change.

Quote:
Many said 4 levels wouldn’t give enough depth for the game and to complicate the issue, the player could only choose 1 of those creatures from level 2 onwards. Since the game has been played and opinions have been decided, how did 4 levels affect gameplay, did it lack depth?


I personally think that NWC did a great job with making the game enjoyable with only four creature levels. Seven seems way too much when I go back to play Heroes III.

Adventure Map

Quote:
The Thieves Guild
The disappearance of the Thieves Guild from the Adventure Map is a change I do not approve of. It makes vital information vital to anyone, and one can easily just look at the Thieves Guild, target the weakest player, and be done with it. Also the way the information is conveyed is too edifying, especially the Total Army strength. I liked the Heroes 2 method where only the Oracle gave out all information and the Thieves’ Guild (located in the castle) increased with every Thieves’ Guild constructed.


I'm okay with not having it on the map, or not having change with the amount of towns you have, although both of these would be nice to see back--it's mainly the way that it doesn't show specifics such as most powerful Hero, most powerful Creature, number of Obelisks found, etc.

Quote:
The Marketplace
Like its revealing counterpart, it is available to anyone at anytime. Even though it is a necessity, I don’t think it should be taken for granted. I would like to see to the Heroes III method once again utilised. And why would 3D0 put a Trading Post in when you can just get to the Marketplace through the toolbar!!!???


Hehe, I never noticed that. Again, I would like to see marketplaces as structures in towns, but I like the new conversion method(much cheaper, and you actually use the marketplace now in a practical way)

Quote:
Quests
I enjoy the prospect of quests in Heroes V. They are challenging, fun and can be pivotal or non-pivotal in a game at your will. They are a good feature added into Heroes IV IMO and should certainly be carried on to Heroes V.


Um, yeah, I think that quests were in Heroes III, too. But yes, they should carry over, although the scripting can be difficult sometimes with them.

Quote:
Power-Ups
While I believe that there are enough of them, they don’t cater for every type of specialised hero. Some power-ups can be worthless to a might hero and vice-versa. I would like to see a greater range with less duplications, such as a Tree of Knowledge, Dream Teacher and Learning Stone, while slightly different, there could be others which would more openly affect the player.


I like the way that the Dream Teacher works, and also the new coliseums in the Gathering Storm. The Tree of Knowledge and the learning stone have always been in Heroes, and so I don't see any reason to get rid of them now.

Combat

Quote:
Line of Sight
I think this change is rather strategic and realistic. Although one can still shoot through trees and rocks, it does still give the impression that the ranged attacker can’t see who he is firing at. In Heroes V I would like to see the Line of Sight applied to undulations in the terrain and other landscape objects like boulders and trees since these are also nonmotile objects which overall have the same effect as an enemy stack.


The line of sight change is great, along with the ranged retaliation addition. I think that someone once mentioned that the game should show an actual line from your stack to the other stack so that you can actually see the Line of Sight that you can or can’t shoot from.

Quote:
Siege Combat
I believe a upgrading to a castle highly changes the outcome of a siege combat for both sides. The main reason for this is the usage your creatures in the tower, instead of the Heroes III method. This makes it extremely difficult, even for those stronger units, to penetrate the castle walls. The units on the tower have a large bonus, and ones attacking those on the tower have a decrease in ‘potentness’. I would like to see the Catapult brought back, since now the creatures (or heroes) have to do the work. I would still like to see the castle door and that it can still be attacked as a secondary source of penetrating the castle.


I would like to see the old Heroes III method back where the arrow towers come stocked with shooters. However, I like the way that units can get up onto towers, and I think that units in Heroes V should be able to scale the Castle Walls, and then have towers with pre-stocked shooting units.

Quote:
I also do not approve of that the moat is built with the castle, I think it should be a separate feature since then one can have the moat without upgrading to a castle. Although I would still like to see the towers upgraded with the castle. The Heroes II method was too ‘separated’.


I’ll just take this space to harp on how I hate the way the water and swamp graphics are in Heroes IV. They need to move. I’d also like to see the moats match the town type, and they should do damage again.

Quote:
Tactics (New Idea)
I would like to see tactics employed in Heroes V. Not like Heroes III, but in a more advanced way. Tactics should be a secondary skill I believe and should include the following ideas.
Basic
How the army is set up. The overall formation of the army. The player can model the army to his or her likings instead of just tight or normal.
Advanced
Includes the basic effect, but the troops can move further out into the battlefield.
Expert
The units may move even further out into the battlefield, and protective spells like firewall and quicksand can be cast, but they act as the heroes (or creature’s) turn in the tactics section.
Master
All the creatures moves can be pre-defined. An example is that a slower unit, such as a crossbowman, will be able to move before a Champion in combat according to the discretion of the player.
Grandmaster
The first turn of the opponent can be estimated working off information given to the computer by your formation.


I like it. I especially like the ability to cast protective spells on units before combat begins.

Quote:
Creature Loyalty (New Idea)
This idea incorporates the usage of the alignments and the state of the morale and luck bonuses. My idea helps to emphasise morale and luck more so than before. An example of my idea is as follows:
Say a priest has 5 devils in his army. This would naturally lower morale. But, if he had 2 more death creatures like cerberi and vampires also in his army, the morale will be lowered more and it would prove to be bad luck to those creatures in battle. But what if the creatures actually refused to be a part of his army, since there were other life creatures and nature creatures present. My idea is that the lower the morale, the more chance the creatures have of leaving your army. Say if the morale is –5, then 5% of your army would leave. Then –10, it would be 10%.If morale were to go –20 it could still apply. If morale were +10, then luck would shine on that creature and it would deal more damage.


Ick. I’m sorry, but I really think that this idea would completely throw gameplay out of whack.

Heroes

Quote:
Heroes in Combat
While I praise the idea that NWC and 3D0 had, I don’t like the way they incorporated it into the battle. While I do believe it is realistic, it just doesn’t work at later stages in the game. While a level 20 hero may have around 320 HP, and about 70 attack and defence skills, a stack of around 40 level 2 creatures could wipe the hero out in a very small time. Ranged attackers such as about 30 medusas can wipe them out with their attack, then their stone gaze. These are only level 2 creatures. Imagine what level 3 and 4 creatures could do to the hero.
This is why I think that either Heroes become more prominent and resistant to creatures attacks more, or they go back to casting spells and cheering on the sidelines, which I do not want to happen.


*Dragon applauds* Woo woo woo ding ding ding! I think that to solve this problem, Heroes, depending on their race, should have that creature’s special ability. If the Hero is a genie, they start out being able to fly and cast extra spells or something. If the Hero is a Medusa, they should have stone gaze. If the Hero is a Dragon, like Mutare, then they should appear as a Dragon and have the fire breath attack and fly. The Heroes’ race would not, however, dictate their HP or Damage or other numeric stats, unless that’s what their race’s special ability is.

Quote:
Hero Skills
Lately, I have seen complaints about what skills are offered to heroes by Jenova and Djive. I too do not like having my magic hero offered combat-based skills. This is why I would like to see the Heroes II method brought back. This encompasses the needs for that hero. For example, going off my manual, a Barbarian at levels 2-9 has a 55% chance of getting attack, 35% of defence, 5% on power, and 5% on knowledge. This can be converted to the Heroes IV (and Heroes V) system of the primary skills.
Also, for primary skills, I am very fond of the Heroes II method. Such as a Warlock as has a number assigned to a secondary skill, the higher the number, the more chance he has of learning that skill. The example is a Sorceress has a 0 for Necromancy, but a 4 for navigation. This can be easily applied to Heroes IV and V skill developments.


I like it. They’ve sort of done that, with the Advanced classes; a Warlock has the greatest chance of Nature and Chaos skills being offered to him. However, this idea only goes by what skills the Hero currently has; yours would say that a Sorcerer would have almost no chance of learning Order Magic, Life Magic, or Combat or Tactics, and more of a chance of learning Nature, Death, or Scouting. Woo woo woo ding ding ding!

Quote:
Hero level-up
This is a possible solution to the problem that Heroes aren’t strong enough in combat. I think a new system needs to be developed, one which allows the hero to progress slower in lower levels, and faster in higher levels relative to the previous level up chart. I believe Djive’s example of a level-up chart found here is rather well though out.


Can’t comment on this now; I need to review Djive’s chart more thoroughly. I’ll edit this part of my post when I do. The general gist of the idea, though, sounds good.

Quote:
Hero Uniqueness
Heroes in Heroes IV no longer have specialties, they don’t even have a fixed portrait to some extent. This is a deplorable feature, a point on which Xenophanes would certainly agree with me. In a game where every creature has a specialty, any hero does not. Heroes really need to be unique and have their own specialty, portrait and biography. At present, it really doesn’t matter what hero you choose within the class, the only thing you have to decide on is their portrait. This must change in Heroes V for Heroes to be unique.


Yippeeeeeeee! I feel really special now; you just made my day! Jon Van Caneghem, James Dickinson, Christian Vanover, LISTEN TO HIM AND ME: HEROES NEED SPECIALTIES!!!!!

Towns and Castles

Quote:
The Structures
I have previously admitted that I enjoy the uniqueness of the structures of Heroes IV. At least the specialty ones. The Creature Portal is rather innovative, the Undead Transformer is unique, and the Breeding Pens are extremely useful. But unfortunately, the numbers of these structures are too few and therefore more ‘cloned buildings’ are being utilised throughout towns. In Heroes III, the only structures that were the same from town to town was the Castle, Town Hall, Tavern, Shipyard and Marketplace. These were also all very standard buildings. Now, in Heroes IV, there are the Town Hall, the Castles, the Shipyard, the Caravan, the Prison, the Tavern, the Mage Guilds, and the structure that sells items. The number is greatly increased from Heroes III.


Actually, in Heroes III, all the towns did have Mage Guilds—just some went higher than others. I agree with Barbarians having no magic, although I think that that won’t be the case in Heroes V, but then again, from what I know, it also seems that the Barbarians won’t be as Barbaric in Heroes V, either. I like all the towns having Caravans, Shipyards, and Prisons, although perhaps, say, the Necropolis could have an addition to their prison called the Torture Chamber which gives additional information to the Thieves’ Guild?

Quote:
The Layout
Possibly the worst aspect of Heroes IV in my eyes. Everything is so bland.
Firstly, the towns are all the same. The interface for every town is the same depending on terrain. What is even more frustrating is that every building is in the same spot for every town. While this may be helpful to just know where everything is, after a while of playing the game, you would know that anyway. I despise of the way everything is set out. We all know the castle is in the top right, the grail in the top left, the town hall next to that, the 4th level structure between the town hall and the castle but one level down, the caravan to the right, the 3rd level structure to the left, and so on.
I loved the Heroes III layout where all of the town interfaces where different and every structure was in a different spot, and actually integrated into the terrain, a feature of Heroes III I especially enjoyed. The caves would form in that huge cliff of the Rampart Castle for the Gold Dragons, the Dungeon Grail structure was extremely well integrated into the front of that rock, the abundance of gold behind that, the pulsing of the evil eye dwelling…. Now what we see is a Griffin Cliff just popping out of the entirely flat ground. It looks very, very bad.
The same goes for the Behemoth Crag. Is it a Crag, or a man made rock with fire spurting from its eyes?
I sincerely hope that they (NWC and 3D0) do not utilise the same method for the layout of towns that were used in Heroes IV.


I like the way that the look changes depending on the terrain the town is on, but I think that they could handle it much more gracefully if they tried. However, it is my understanding that there has already been at least one artist meeting at New World to decide on new town art styles, and so what we’re discussing here may have already be decided. Hopefully Christian Vanover’s interview on the Might and Magic Guild will give us more info on this when it comes out.

Creatures

Quote:
No Upgrades
While this does decrease the amount of overall creatures in the game 66 compared to HIII 100+ is quite a big difference, I would like to see more individuality more than numbers, so I am happy what they’ve done here. I believe NWC has made the creatures unique and at the same time created a larger number of them. For Heroes V, I would like no upgrades but more creatures, maybe 80 or so.


I love the way that there are no upgrades in Heroes IV. When I go back to play Heroes III now, I look at the upgrades in disgust as a stupid, redundant feature.

Quote:
Creatures in Towns
I have mixed emotions about this aspect of Heroes IV. While it is quite strategic to have to decide on which creature to buy, it does leave you with only 5 creatures, which really isn’t enough to give enough depth in a town, since in Necropolis, my decisions are the Cerberus, Vampires, and Bone Dragons, and this doesn’t include a shooter. It is a shame how that happens. So for Heroes V, I would like to incorporate that 80 creatures into 6 towns, with 6 recruitable creatures, and therefore making 72 creatures in towns, and 8 neutral creatures. This I think should work out well. The player has a choice of 12 creatures in each town, with 5 levels instead of 4. In my opinion, there is too big a gap between the levels in terms of strength.


Booooo hissey! Boooo hissey! Someone on the 3DO Community started a thread called “Identifying the Soul of Heroes II.” This was in preparation for Heroes V, so that we could see what was good in Heroes II, and what needed to be included in Heroes V that was forgotten in IV. One of the greatest things that was said was that New World is worrying too much about game balance. They’ve done so much with trying to make the game balanced, that it just becomes too generic in every aspect. For example, six towns, four levels in each town, and two creatures per level, with both level 1 creatures being recruitable. Ick!

That’s extremely generic. Take Heroes III for example, too. Seven levels in every town; every unit can be upgraded. Again, disgustingly generic.

But now, take Heroes II: true, six levels in six towns, but look at the gaps in stats: Black Dragons have 300 HP, and Cyclops have 65! Phoenixes have 100 HP, Bone Dragons have 150 HP, Titans have 300. Certainly not generic. And the upgrades aren’t generic either. Almost every creature can be upgraded in the Knight Castle, and almost none in the Warlock, except for the Dragons, which have two upgrades! Again, certainly not generic, and THE GAME STILL WORKS. IT’S NOT UNBALANCED. Sure, some things are hugely different, but it’s balanced. It’s balanced, but not generic. This is the soul of Heroes II. This is what we need to remember for Heroes V.

So, there you have it. We need to have maybe different amounts of creature levels depending on the town, and there need to be different amounts of creatures for each level. For example, in the Barbarian town, there might be three creature options for level 1, one of level 2, and two for Level 3. The Warlocks might have one for Level 1, and five for Level 4! This is how we can break down genericy and bring back the soul of Heroes II.

Quote:
Uniqueness of Creatures (Semi-new Idea)
It is evident that throughout the history of the Heroes series the number of mythological creatures has been diminishing. So, therefore I would like to see many more mythological creatures added to Heroes V than in Heroes IV. Creatures that were missing like Gorgons, Basilisks, Druids, Liches, Paladins, Rocs, Manticores, Wyverns, Gogs, Wraiths, Pegasi, and Hobgoblins. These are some of the mythological creatures, which were included in previous series and were not included in Heroes IV. Therefore, I would like to see more real creatures than made up ones such as ‘Evil Sorceresses’ in Heroes V.


Excellent. I also want to add my *own* idea here. Some people have commented on how in Heroes III, you could tell how certain creatures all went to one town; they had a sort of “theme” to all of them that was readily identifiable. I would like to see the same sort of thing in Heroes V; the Haven town almost pulled it off with all the purple; in Heroes III, all the Castle units wore blue, all the Inferno units had a red tinge to them, etc.—Heroes V needs something like that, so that all the creatures from one town look like they belong together.

Miscellaneous

Quote:
Music for Heroes V
I would like to see (or hear) the music in Heroes V to have compilations of all other previous series, and the user is able to choose the theme for that terrain from the Heroes1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 version of it. It would enable you to have all different themes for every terrain and castle to suit your likings.


Interesting idea, but I myself would prefer new music done by Rob King, with the Celtic themes that Heroes IV uses, and vocals in Latin

Quote:
Spells
I have only one problem with the way a hero or creature casts spells. Every spell in that level costs the same. Again, this is has no depth whatsoever, and it incurs that every spell is just as good as each other, which is certainly not the case. This creates equity in all spells which something I am not fond of. I would prefer it that the cost of the spells be determined on how effective they are, not on what level they’re in.


Interesting. I never noticed that.

Quote:
Spell Casting (Idea)
This is an idea initially created by Grythandril:
When Heroes and creatures cast spell, instead of performing the same hand movements when casting a spell, the spell casting can become more elaborate by setting up a ceremony for stronger spells like Armageddon. The spell effects could also be turned off if the player doesn’t want to wait that long to cast a spell.


We’d all like more intricate animations; I’m sure of that. Oh, but now I can go off on a little tangent about animations. Before Heroes IV came out, the designers kept harping on how there would be many more frames per second for each creature—WRONG!! There are maybe five frames per second for each creature in Heroes IV, and for almost every animation the movement is blurred, so that it looks like it has more frames than it really does. Take a closer look at the Sprites’ wings or the Orcs’ axe to see what I mean. I want 24 frames per second! I heard Jeff Bigman say that the game’s engine couldn’t support that many, but I think that 3D-oh!(I know this is Lith’s saying, but I like it) just wanted them to crank it out regardless. While I’m on the subject of animation, I ‘d also like to see each advanced class with it’s own set of animation, and have Heroes in battle look like their portrait—they’re on the right track with The Gathering Storm, and so maybe they could start out just having Campaign Heroes look like their portraits in combat?

Just as an end comment here, let’s not be too harsh in what we say about New World when we’re analyzing their work until Heroes V comes out—3DO, sure, but at New World, they’re working hard, and trying their best to identify the soul of Heroes II, and include it in Heroes V.
____________
<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 08, 2002 02:03 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 7 Oct 2002

My thoughts on Heroes V Ideas

I was waiting for Destro23 to reply, but he may have been waiting for me, so I'll just bite the bullet and post it now.

Slava14

"Maybe you just forgot to mention that, but anyway, the 3. for the might hero should be both melee and ranged."

Yes, good point there, I must have forgotten to put that one in.

"Also, I think that whether the hero is Might or Magic should be decided by his skills."

I also planned to think of it in that manner. Since there are many hero classes which have mixed skills, like Tactics and Chaos Magic, (Pyromancer) the special ability is having the fire shield and therefore, having a more combat like focus, which suggests that this hero is a might overall-but it still has magic instincts.
The other way I see it is to base it entirely on skills, say that a hero has expert nature magic, basic summoning, and expert combat, the hero would be a magic hero.
Anyway, I would let NWC figure what is might and what is magic, or they can try to make a clear division.

"The thing that I'm concerned about is what to do with Exp "gained" by your creatures."

OK. I would understand your concern in this area-but not to worry. While the creatures are gaining experience by defeating the enemy, the hero is the one who controls them, and can easily work the same was as it did when Heroes were on the sidelines. They still gain experience from creatures killing the opponents-it is only x1, though.

Djive

"The towns are important enough as creature generators."

I don't believe so. A Town is what one is supposed to build their whole kingdom around, not just a few creature generators. Creature generators aren't too unique, either, most of the maps I've played have creature generators nearby, (eg. Danger in the Trees, Last Man Standing) which help development.
I would like to see the City Hall income increase to about 2,500 gold. I find that a nice income amount. 4,000 was to much in Heroes III, a Capitol was a very main and vital building-not so in Heroes IV. (There is no Capitol )

"A Thief and a Lord has no way to deal damage in combat.So they won't gain levels."

OK. Maybe you misunderstood me prviously: This is not a basis for a totally new experience table. Heroes still gain the normal x1 experience gained in previous series. When the heroes attack the creature or hero with their selected mediums, their experience doubles. Whatever happens, heroes still have to gain experience after combat. I am just proposing an idea that alters this increase. And for Heroes V, pleae show us how much experience we're gaining!!
Thives and Lords still attack with a sword, they all might heroes begin with a sword, and magic heroes (usually-since the mage guild may not have been built) with spells in their spellbook.

"Because this could have a tendency to prolong combats, because a player want's to maximize a certain hero's XP gain."

This makes battles more strategic, maybe people will actually care if they kill 50 peasants with their hero or their griffins. The battles may become longer, but I read a post as I was going through the community saying that Heroes IV was like a Saturday morning game(relaxing) and nothing strtegic needed to be applied. While I don't agree with the last part, I think we can make it more strategic by influencing the Hero's importance in battle. I remember you saying that they weren't significant enough in battle, maybe they could be.

"(Like Arrow Towers or other things.) Would also be nice if the strength of the defences depended on how long you've owned the town."

I tend to agree here. There just isn't enough reasons to upgrade the fort into a castle. I often pass many games with my main town as a fort to allow for creature growth and not ending up with 0 dollars. I would upgrade if they provided more bonuses like Djive said and cost less money, maybe 4,000 isntead of 7,500.

"Someone else already gave ThE_HyDrA a QP."

Pretty sure it was Valeriy.


Xenophanes

Very interesting post-also quite enthusiastic by reading it.

"The Tree of Knowledge and the learning stone have always been in Heroes, and so I don't see any reason to get rid of them now."

I don't want to get rid of them as such, maybe if 3DO can make more structures instead of having 3 XP structures, it won't seem like these three are out of place.

"I would like to see the old Heroes III method back where the arrow towers come stocked with shooters."

To some extent, yes. But instead of AI troops, I would like to see the player control them as in Heroes IV, but I would like the towers to be situated in the Heroes III and II areas.

"Woo woo woo ding ding ding! I think that to solve this problem, Heroes, depending on their race, should have that creature’s special ability."

What do we have for him Johnnie? Yes, I like that Idea, it does make heroes more immune to easy stone gaze kills were it only needs to pick off 1 hero, not 20.

"Sorcerer would have almost no chance of learning Order Magic, Life Magic, or Combat or Tactics, and more of a chance of learning Nature, Death, or Scouting."

Yes. At high levels, this is what a hero would want to be focusing on, instead of learning new skills like Advanced combat if the hero hadn't learnt them previously.

"the Necropolis could have an addition to their prison called the Torture Chamber which gives additional information to the Thieves’ Guild?"

OK. Expanding on this idea, the Torture chamber would have to be purchased, and would only work if there was a person in that prison. When the player kills a hero, the player should be able to specify which town the hero is held capitve, since this could maximise the usage of the Torture Chamber.

"But now, take Heroes II: true, six levels in six towns, but look at the gaps in stats: Black Dragons have 300 HP, and Cyclops have 65! Phoenixes have 100 HP, Bone Dragons have 150 HP, Titans have 300."

OK. This sort of happens in Heroes IV, too. To memory, a Champion has 150 HP, while the great Black Dragon has 400. Look at that difference. 250HP. In Heroes II, Cyclops had 80, and Crusaders had 65, which makes the difference of 235 HP. Maybe Heroes IV isn't so different in that respect?

"there need to be different amounts of creatures for each level."

OK I did like Heroes II better than III, and when I got Heroes IV and when I got Heroes II, I liked II better. Maybe this idea could work, but even in Heroes II, there were levels, even though they were not set.Here we go:
Knight:
Peasant: 1
Archer: 2
Pikeman: 3
Swordsman: 4
Cavalry: 5
Crusader: 6

Sorceress:
Sprite: 1
Dwarf: 2
Elf: 3
Druid: 4
Unicorn: 5
Phoenix: 6

Wizard:
Halfling: 1
Boar: 2
Golem: 3
Roc: 4
Mage: 5
Titan: 6

Barbarian:
Goblin: 1
Orc: 2
Wolf: 3
Ogre: 4
Troll: 5
Cyclops: 6

Necromancer:
Skeleton: 1
Zombie: 2
Mummy: 3
Vampire: 4
Lich: 5
Bone Dragon: 6

Warlock:
Centaur: 1
Gargoyle: 2
Griffin: 3
Minotaur: 4
Hydra: 5
Dragons: 6
Also, I have tested all these creatures out for strength, and they are relatively comparative, at least from level 1-5. So there are 5 levels in Heroes II, and nearly all of them are balanced. I also noticed that you used level 6 creatures for that experiment.

"Interesting idea, but I myself would prefer new music done by Rob King, with the Celtic themes that Heroes IV uses, and vocals in Latin"

OK then. Just choose the Heroes IV music option then.

"and trying their best to identify the soul of Heroes II, and include it in Heroes V."

Yes, Im sure we would all like to have a better working, looking and playing replica of Heroes II to some extent in Heroes V.

Question for Xenophanes: Should I bother posting this (thread) on the 3D0 community board?

Like to see more of your ideas in the near future.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 08, 2002 10:02 AM

I agree with just about everything Hydra said. Well posted.

Especially the part about heroes fighting in combat.. I like the idea, but the heroes hit points are hard to balance. Creatures stacks can have large numbers, whereas a hero can only be one in a stack, so they will always lose to numbers. They are simply too frail for combat, and I don't want to have to choose combat skills for magic heroes so they can survive. Either change creatures to only 1 per stack like AOW (I don't think people will like this option) or get them out of combat again.

I'd also like heroes to not be generic. Unique heroes. Make it like H3 where each get a specialty (just like the creatures in H4). But nothing too unbalancing. Also as the hero advances in levels, their little bonus gets changed or upgraded as well.. Like say a Minotaur hero gives +1 bonus to all minotaurs stats, maybe at level 5 it becomes a +3 bonus.  A spellcasting hero who learns a unique spell should have the strength of that spell improved. The heroes that give daily gold should give a bit more after level 5 then 10. But again, nothing too unbalancing.. Generic heroes in H4 are just uninteresting.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 08, 2002 10:28 AM

"I don't believe so. A Town is what one is supposed to build their whole kingdom around, not just a few creature generators."

Game play becomes boring if you can recruit all the creatures in the town with the income in town and still gets a lot of money over. Players should be starved economically so they can't dally around biting their nails in the castle and are forced to use their forces to attack and explore.

Do not promote the AI strategy of waiting and defending by a rich economy. The game must promote attacking and exploring and do this to a greater degree than defending and sitting home doing nothing.

After having played the game a bit I feel the economy is right in the beginning of the game. Any more money earnt would make you too rich, and too easy to build things. Late game, you tend to have an overabundance of resources already as it is now. The town income should support that you buy roughly half of the creatures in your town, the rest you must get from the adventure map. In H4 this translates to your level 4 creatures. One blackie or two hydrae costs 8000 Gold thus the town should give this amount. 1000 x 7 = 7000 Gold which is fairly close.

The town generators are things you can rely on having on all maps, but even they can be disabled. External dwellings is something which is map dependent and some maps don't have any within several days of travel, and if they have it's usually level 1 to level 3 dwellings.

I still don't see the benefit of giving additional XP for some actions. It just unnecessarily complicates the game. Lords and Thieves generally don't attack creatures at least not unless you make them Warlords or Rangers. If you max out the Scouting skill or Nobility skill with no Combat skill then the Heroes becomes so fragile that most monsters will take them out with 1 hit.

The thief and lord does very little damage with their weapons. They would gain a trifle of the XP as compared to the Warrior. This is one aspect of role playing which should not be included.

"This makes battles more strategic, maybe people will actually care if they kill 50 peasants with their hero or their griffins."

My point is it's irrelevant and they shouldn't care. The XP is for things experienced and witnessed, not necessarily what you've done yourself. I don't see this as an added strategic value, sorry. I see it as a waste of my time.

Heroes are often significant in battles. No rules without exceptions though. Pure Nobility and Scouting heroes play an insignificant role in the battle. They're just too fragile and deal no damage and have no spells. A pure Combat hero is a formidable force. Can take and deal out a lot of punishment.

The amount of animations they'll include probably have an upper limit. If you want different animations for gender, alignment, race, and for each advanced class then you're probably asking too much.

A reasonable wish is perhaps something like:
Gender, race, basic class and perhaps a dozen high level specialized classes which would have strict and high requirements and not be easily attainable.

Basic classes are Thief, Lord, Warrior and Mage.

Tuition buildings pretty much destroy the concept of only might and magic heroes or forbidding skills. Once you get the money you will want to give your barbarian magic tuition or perhaps your magic hero a new magic skill. So you simply purchase it.

The hero classes already have different chances to learn different skills. It's just so that this doesn't kick in until you've got a reasonable level to begin with. (At levels up to roughly 10-15, the third choice is almost always Combat beyond that you will notice that you get the different third choices on skills.) It's also noticeable on lower levels if you develope an Archer.

If you study hero developement beyond level 20 or so then you will see it already works the way you suggest.

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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted October 09, 2002 04:28 AM

Quote:
OK I did like Heroes II better than III, and when I got Heroes IV and when I got Heroes II, I liked II better. Maybe this idea could work, but even in Heroes II, there were levels, even though they were not set.


I don't mean to say that we shouldn't have levels. What I'm saying is that whereas in Heroes IV, in every town for every level you had to choose between two creatures(except for level 1). In Heroes V, each town should have a different amount of creatures to choose from for each level. Like I said here:

Quote:
For example, in the Barbarian town, there might be three creature options for level 1, one of level 2, and two for Level 3. The Warlocks might have one for Level 1, and five for Level 4!


Also, perhaps each town could even have more levels or less levels than it's companions, again, using Barbarian and Warlock for example, the Barbarian might have six levels(with different numbers of creatures to choose from for each level) while the Warlock has eight, but maybe less of a number of creatures to choose from at each level.
____________
<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>

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