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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: "Run Forest.... RUN!"
Thread: "Run Forest.... RUN!" This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Kuma
Kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted May 18, 2003 02:26 PM

Surprise, surprise. another red star for Wub again.
Great posts man, u r a well-respected member of this forum.

BTW guys: he's Dutch, that also helps LOL
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2003 10:26 PM

Lord of Fire also joins the Wub's fan club ...

... and continues his work on some points.

So here's what I did:
I faced 840 centaur captains with the following armies:
8400 peasants
420 battle dwarves
42 angels

The results were the following:
8400 peasants were faced by 4 stacks of centaur captains;
420 battle dwarves were faced by 5 stacks of cent. capts;
42 angesl were faced by 3 stacks of cent. capts.

Since the total amount of HPs of all the three variants is equal (8400 HP) but the damage and other stats are different, we can make a simple conclusion:
The number of opposing stacks depends not only on the total HPs (if it depends on them at all), but also on some other stats.
Of course, 420 battle dwarves, when attacking the centaurs, always got 5 opposing stacks - so that's not random.

------------

As for the Azures... Yes, they really have the immunity to the lvl 1-3 spells. But I did 14 implos on a stack of them in a row, and they never resisted it - enough to say that Azures don't have a magic resistance percentage, isn't it?
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 18, 2003 11:37 PM


"-Speed artifacts (such as cape of velocity) do not seem to increase adventure map movement)"

My mistake...this is what I tested, not the creature speed. Since on a special hero, that would make sense. I meant other speed arties, but that would make sense too.

I just retested the ballista/archery thing. It increases with archery, not offense, cold hard fact right there.

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Myctteakyshd

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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2003 12:04 AM

For a long while one real library thread!

Just two remarks:

To Xar (about misleading reference to your post):
Sorry, dude, no evil intent on my side.

About azure drags and resistance:
I did some testing with sod and indeed - no magic resistance. Yet with AB expansion i think Azures still had resistance, however this one i can't test anymore.

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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2003 02:48 AM
Edited By: Wub on 19 May 2003

Thanks to all of you for the feedback . Donít hesitate to post any suggestions for tests, because I have this insatiable urge to Ďknowí things about Heroes 3 anyway .

Quote:
Just a little note: The creature speciality of heroes DOES give additional speed ON the map. So in this case u were wrong.


When I read this, I immediately started wondering what I could have done wrong. When I checked the movement numbers, I noticed that units with speed 6 and 7 do indeed move equally fast over the adventure map. And when I retested it, I saw that you were absolutely right, Xarfax. Thank you very much for pointing this out, because I really hate to post things that are simply not true. I will edit it in my original post right away. Good thing that I at least posted the way in which I tested it, so I will do that more in the future.

Quote:
To the offense/artillery/archery-thingie on the artillery i must say that i didnt tested it. But Motorschaaf did it once, and he said that offense also influences the artillery. Well maybe in this case u might have overlooked something too.


Well, again I started wondering what I could have overlooked. I made sure to keep the attack skill equal in all tests and I used scholars to teach offense and archery. It occurred to me that maybe when creatures were adjacent to the ballista, offense would make a difference. So I also tested that, but still offense did not matter. Therefore I  cannot discover any problems with the test at this moment. This is not to say that it is proven that offense doesnít work for the ballista, because you cannot prove anything with these tests, just strongly suggest. Because to prove it, you would have to test all possible situations in which a hero has offense and a ballista (which is clearly impossible). But if you want to test it yourself, go ahead and please let me know the results. The more data the better.

Quote:
i wanna make clear this is only discussing not making trouble.


Donít worry, Iím not that easily offended. In the contrary, I appreciate it very much that you corrected my mistake.

Quote:
1.Would be interesting to know, does this stack thing really works on hp of your army or creature total strength (i.e. att/def skills and damage of the creatures in your army) also have some importance?


First I have to say that odvinís test shows very well that the enemy formation is not solely dependent on the amount of hitpoints. But then, how does the computer measure the strength of your army and the neutral monster stack? I donít know yet, but I came a lot closer to the answer and found something very interesting (imho).

In my previous post I tested the number of stacks in the enemy formation by engaging 840 hobgoblins with a variable number of hobgoblins myself. I concluded that the number of stacks is dependent on your own army strength. Moreover, I found some very exact percentages:

0-50%-->7 stacks, 50-67%-->6 stacks, 67-100%-->5 stacks, 100-150%-->4 stacks, 150-200%-->3 stacks and >200%-->2 stacks.

The first thing I did was repeating this test, but this time not against 840 goblins, but against 100 goblins. Not surprisingly, I found the same percentages.

The second thing I did was testing this against other creatures. So I placed a stack of 100 familiars on the map and varied the number of familiars that I attacked with. And surprisingly, the percentages differed. In fact, the familiars made always 1 stack more than the hobgoblins did in the same situations.

EDIT: I drawed the wrong conclusion out of this. The truth is: One of the factors that influences enemy formation is not creature type, but the place on the map (the map tile). I deleted a large part of my post; for more information on this, consult the next posts. Thanks to Odvin for doing additional testing .  

When Iím ready with this, I will look into your question about upgraded stacks as well, Zilonite. Testing azure dragons is a bit hard for me because I only have Restoration of Erathia, but luckily odvin took care of that as well.

I also tested a few other things:

Most people know that you cannot cast implosion on a catapult. I found that when the orb of vulnerability is carried, you still can not implode a catapult. Erm, yeah that test was a bit useless.

When you cast expert stone skin + expert frenzy on archangels (neutral terrain, no a/d bonuses, expert magic schools), they get an attack of 102.

When you cast expert prayer + expert frenzy on archangels, they also get an attack of 102 AND a bonus speed of 4.

When you cast expert stone skin + expert prayer + expert frenzy on archangels, they get an attack of 114 AND a bonus speed of 4.

So I agree, Xarfax, that casting prayer is better than casting stone skin in combination with frenzy. Both is even better of course.  

Wel thatís it, I will continue when I have some more time.

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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted May 19, 2003 04:07 AM

kinda funny to realise that when u played this game single player you thought you knew everything about it... hey i even finished the last scenario at campaign in 2 or 3 days using DD and exp. air... after doing that i thought i was the king of heroes and knew everything about it.

After playing the game online for a while i realised that "heck, i really dunno much about this game".

Now ive been a member of TOH since mid season III, and now not many things suprises me. I reckon i know most stuff.

But its posts/tests like these ones of Wub which makes you realise that you still have lots to learn before you can master this game.

And thats really good news IMO, now i just gotta learn all these things so i finally can spank archie bad in a game

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted May 19, 2003 07:18 AM

Definitions & basically the facts between Archery & Offense & how it affects certain abilities is obvious.
Archery controls all ranged attacks & offense controls all hand to hand meele combat.

So it is obvious that archery will also control the artilliry gun since it shoots .
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Dreaming of a Better World

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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2003 09:50 AM

Wub rocks!

This thing of group formation is pretty interesting...

May be for lvl 1 creatures thats not so important, i think - if u are up to beating them, u will do it anyway. However if u, Wub, can do same testing against shooters that could have big practical importance - if player can predict, how many stacks he should be able to block, that would make shooters-fighting more easier...

But anyway.... Wub rocks!
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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2003 02:16 PM

Quote:
So it is obvious that archery will also control the artilliry gun since it shoots .

Though AFAIK, when there's an enemy stack next to your Ballista, it's still possible to target remote stacks with it. A normal shooter wouldn't be able to do that according to the basic rules. That means that Ballista is not a true ranged unit... Therefore, you cannot be that sure until you test it out.
However, I agree that it's absolutely logical for a Ballista to be affected by Archery and not to be affected by Offense .
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 19, 2003 02:51 PM

Its also logical for Olema to learn water magic, since she has a weakness specialty. But heretics and demonaics cant learn water magic

You just never know with heroes.
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Myctteakyshd

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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2003 03:03 PM

Thx for posting such things, Wub... But I've done some more additional testing. The results are not too good... Now listen everyone.
The idea of monsters being separated into 3 groups surprised me very much. First of all because this requires some additional programming and balancing, and there are easier way to do the separation (via HP or Dmg or anything like that). Secondly, because the groups that you've listed seem quite unlogical. Halberdiers, the most powerful 1st level creature, ar ein the same group with Familiars, the weakest 1st level creature; besides, they are in different alignments (Good and Evil) and, if to think logically (or to fantacize - call it whatever you want), they should have different views of this world and, therefore, diferent agression level and all that stuff.
But that doesn't matter much. Simply I was quite surprised and I decided to check it. And what do you think? My results were not the same as Wub's - both for RoE 1.4 and SoD 3.1. For example, when I attakced a stack of 840 Halberdiers with 1 Halberdier, I faced 7 stacks, while Wub says that it should be 6. I tested it also having 421 Halberdiers (5 opposing stacks) and having 421 Skel. Warrior against 840 Skel. Warriors (6 opposing stacks). You see, the results are different.
That means that...
a) 'Groups' do not exist or
b) they are chosen differently for each game (or maybe through some other mechanism).
Anyway, there is no way (I think) to check these 'groups', organize them in any way or create any formula to calculate the exact number of opposing stacks.
Then I had one more idea: to check out the creature table in the resource files (to which I have full access ). I found that there is a "Fight value" statistic for every creature. I suppose that the "Fight value" is closer; but I still need to test it more (right now I don't have much time). And the one thing that surprises me most in all this: why do the same monsters have different stack count on different computers? It would be great to have answer to this question, though I'm afraid we'll never be able to do this without looking into the game's source code.
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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted May 20, 2003 01:20 AM

pretty interesting... rych is right, u just never know with heroes
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 20, 2003 02:05 AM
Edited By: Wub on 19 May 2003

warning: this post can only give very technical information about enemy formation, but I hope it is still better than posting nothing at all

Thank you very much for testing this, Odvin . It is good if someone else looks into this, and in this case it is even better since you found an inconsistency with my tests. Fearing that I made a lame mistake again, I immediately retested what I wrote down of course, but I still got the same results. I also copied your test exactly (1 halberdier vs 840) and still faced only 6 stacks. I varied the terraintype (snow, dirt, grass) and again I faced only 6 stacks of halberdiers.

But now I have found the reason for the differences between our tests. As I posted, I first tested enemy formation with hobgoblins. After that, I wanted to know if other creatures used the same rules to form their formations as well. So I also put a stack of familiars on the map and repeated the tests. I saw that they used an other formation, so I concluded that familiars use other formations than hobgoblins.

Now this is where it went wrong. Since I put the familiars somewhere else on the map, I didn't factor the influence of terrain out. And it appears that not creature type, but the place on the map is a factor in the enemy formation. Because when I put the familiars on the exact same place as where the hobgoblins used to be, I saw that there was no difference between the formation of hobgoblins and familiars. Or in other words: as long as you test it on the exact same tile on the map, engaging 100 familiars with 100 familiars gives you the same enemy formation as engaging 100 hobgoblins with 100 hobgoblins. So forget about creature types! Good riddance, I think .

After this I did many more tests on the subject, in which I varied terrain, creatures and army strength (I did not test different creatures against each other though!) . The tests seemed to show (I say this carefully, because I am the only person who tested it and more data may be needed) that:

-Every tile on the map represents a fixed battle terrain (this is nothing new to most I suppose). In other words: every time that you play the same scenario, you can be sure that when you fight on the same terrain tile, you will find the same obstacles etc. on the battlefield.

-Every tile on the map influences creature formation in a fixed way. This means that, for example, if you attack 840 halberdiers with one halberdier on tile number (25,33) you will always face the same amount of stacks, let's say 7. And when you fight with the same armies on, say, tile (18, 12) you will always find the same amount of stacks as well, but on this tile there could always be 6 while there always were 7 on tile (25,33). More specificly (the percentages are the creature strength of your army relative to the neutral monsters):

Tile type 1:
0-50%-->6 stacks, 50-67%-->5 stacks, 67-100%-->4 stacks, 100-150%-->3 stacks, 150-200%-->2 stacks and >200%-->1 stack.

Tile type 2:
0-50%-->7 stacks, 50-67%-->6 stacks, 67-100%-->5 stacks, 100-150%-->4 stacks, 150-200%-->3 stacks and >200%-->2 stacks.

Tile type 3:
0-50%-->7 stacks, 50-67%-->7 stacks, 67-100%-->6 stacks, 100-150%-->5 stacks, 150-200%-->4 stacks and >200%-->3 stacks.

-Every tile on the map influences the number of upgrades in a fixed way. This works as follows. Every tile on the map also has either always one upgrade or always no upgraded stack amongst non-upgraded neutral monsters. So if the enemy formation on a certain tile consists of 6 stacks and there is one upgrade, then there is also one upgraded stack if the enemy formation consists of two stacks. There is one exception to this rule: if you attack a non-upgraded stack of monsters and you face only one stack, then that stack will always consist of non-upgraded creatures, even when the map tile allows for adding upgraded monsters.

I'm afraid that this is all the testing I can do about predicting number of enemy stacks and predicting the presence of upgraded stacks, because the different type of tiles allow for too many variables to make exact predictions. I can give a few tips based on what I know now though, but (as always) you should be skeptical about this since these tests obviously have their limits. Also, these tips are a a lot less useful than what I had hoped for, but still:

-You can generally count on fewer opposing enemy stacks according as your army strength is high in relation to the strength of the opposing neutral creatures.
-If you like playing fixed maps, you can memorize the battlefield on important places and adjust your strategy to it.
-If you want to have more detailed information about an important neutral monster stack and you are prepared to sacrifice a scout for it (or you want to 'town portal' your main to your tavern anyway), you can do the following:
Attack the neutral monster stack with as few troops as possible (though you may want to bring enough to flee). Of course you count the number of enemy creatures. But you can do more now: also count the number of enemy stacks. If there are 7, you are on a creature tile type 2 or 3; if there are 6, you are on a creature tile type 1. You can use this info to make a more accurate prediction (based on the numbers mentioned here) of how many stacks you will face when you bring all your creatures with you. Also look if there are upgrades. If there are none, you will face none with your main army as well. When there are upgraded stacks, you will face them with your main army too (unless you are on tile type 1 and you have a very much bigger army than the neutral monsters).

I know all this is very technical information and you won't need it that often. But I simply was not possible for me to acquire more useful data about the subject . Therefore I cannot answer Zilonite's question about number of shooterstacks very accurately, but I hope my next tests will reveal useful information. Any ideas anyone?
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted May 20, 2003 02:36 AM

lol IMO just your enthusiasm should be rewarded.

good post Wub, as usual id say

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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted May 20, 2003 08:36 AM

Yup, good post - if i would have your patience to test it all out, man... Also i think those results could be used perfectly in practice - there are pretty many fights when presence of ungraded dudes would influence the decision whether fight or no (e.g. if u face big stack of lvl 7 monters).
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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 20, 2003 02:19 PM
Edited By: Odvin on 20 May 2003

Great testing and posting once again... What else can I say? I'd do additional testing if I had more time, but I'm busy now. Once I get rid of all this nasty business , I'll try to do that. Because the final answer to the question is still not found (I hope it can be found). To finish all the testing, it would be ideal to create a universal rule or formula with which to calculate the exact number of opposing stacks and presence of upgraded units. Though I doubt it can be done solely through testing. Well, anyway you've done a great job Wub! Go have some rest now

EDIT: One more important thing... Look what I wrote 15 posts above . The neutral stack of centaur captains was in the same position, while I only varied the type and number of attacking creatures. That means, the creature type still means something...
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 21, 2003 08:43 AM

Heres an experience I had recently in a final fight with midnight. He attacks me wearing black orb and has inferno army and 35% magic resistance. I have 30% magic resistance and Rampart army...

His turn...he implodes 12 goldies
My turn...I arma, affecting every stack of his, including his efreet sultans, while every stack of mine is affected, except my elves and trees. After this he has 2 sultans and 4 archies left and the fight is quickly over.

My questions regarding this is why doesnt he get resistance when he actually had more of it, and secondly, black orb totally negates natural magic resistance (just test it with Thorgrimm ) So why do a couple of my stacks resist? They shouldnt at all with the orb present...or do you put it down to Unicorn aura? or who carries the orb? It does some weird things, thats for sure.
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Myctteakyshd

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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 21, 2003 04:09 PM
Edited By: Odvin on 21 May 2003

You request really much testing, Xar
But here's a little about Blackies that I've just tested out. Three headers, as you wanted.

The conclusion which I can make so far (basing on these results and [partially] on Rychen's post) is that wearing the black orb has a nasty double effect: it allows you to cast spells on the enemy which he can't cast on himself (e.g. you can cast Blind on the enemy's Blackies, while he can't Cure them). But on the other side, it opens your own units for ALL the spells, both positive and negative.
Needs more testing though...

EDIT: additional info:
For all those %-chance effects (aging, stoning etc.) I used no more than 15 attempts. That means, if a ghost can't age a blackie, I tried to do that 15 times but failed.
'Turning into stone' goes for Basilisks' special. I didn't test Medusas since I suppose their specials are equal.
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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 22, 2003 06:08 AM
Edited By: Odvin on 21 May 2003

You see, many (not all though, if I recall properly) specials of creatures are listed as spells in the resources. If the school, level etc. is there, it's simpler just to look there and find all out. Otherwise. testing won't help either.
Aging is there, btw. I'll look it up.

P.S.: As for the 15 tries... Well, most of those specials have a 20% chance to occur. If a 20% chance is not realised for 15 times in a row, it's already a reason to say "No". But, if you want, I can test it again.
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 22, 2003 10:08 AM

Quote:
If for example Aging is like u described.. then is Aging a spell and not an ablity like the death stare. So if it is a spell it would be interesting which level it is ...
Aging works on Gold Dragons but fails against Black Dragons. So we can assume itīs considered to be a lvl5 spell ...
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