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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: "Run Forest.... RUN!"
Thread: "Run Forest.... RUN!" This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 27, 2003 01:30 PM

Wub joins Lord of Fire's fanclub

Since my last post about enemy formation was a bit lengthy, I figured that it would be nice to make a summary:

The obstacles on the battle field are determined by the maptile on that specific map.

The number of upgraded stacks in a battle are (almost) completely determined by the maptile.

The number of stacks in a battle are determined by maptile and army strength of your army.


I have also done some testing about Xarfax's questions. The orb of vulnerability should negate the natural magic resistance of creatures. If I would know what 'natural magic resistance' means, than maybe I would know how the orb works. So let's take a look at the natural resistance of the black dragon, which is complete spell immunity. Now I figured that if I could define what a spell or spell effect is (other than: something that a black dragon is immune for), then I could define natural magic resistance better and thus explain how the orb works.

So...what is a spell? (toss toss )

An anti magic garrison prevents all spellcasting. So it sounds logical that a spell is something that cannot be casted anymore in an anti magic garrison. So I tested that.

I found that this definition cannot explain the spell immunity of black dragons however. Since paralyzing, stoning, aging and poisoning work in such a garrison, you would expect them not to be spells. A black dragon is immune for them though.

Dispel removes all spell effects from a creature. So you would expect that if something can be dispelled, that a black dragon is immune for it then. So I tested that too.

Paralyzing, stoning and aging can all be dispelled and black dragons are immune for it, so that fits well together. But the poison of wyvern monarch cannot be dispelled (only cured) while black dragons are still immune. But worse, a dendroids binding can be dispelled, but it also affects black dragons.

The conclusion must be that it is very hard to give an exact definition of what a spell is. Heroes 3 may not be a logical game, but these inconsistencies make it very hard to fathom. I'll post more testing (but then with the orb equipped) soon.
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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 27, 2003 02:11 PM

Poison, binding and others are spells at least because they are listed in the homm3 spell table.
I have nothing more to say on these points... But I do have a suggestion.
[now_a_bit_offtopic]
People, does anyone of you here know John Van Caneghem's email address? We could ask him everything we want. After all, he has the source code, and that answers EVERYTHING
Btw if he doesn't have time to answer, he could just send the sources themselves
[/now_a_bit_offtopic]
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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 29, 2003 01:16 AM

This post is an add-on to the table that Odvin posted a few posts earlier. I tested all creature specialties with black dragons in a normal garrison with a high level Tazar and 28 tries per creature specialty. I carried out these tests first with no orb of invulnerability equipped and then when Tazar had the orb equipped. To have more data I also executed a few of the tests that Odvin already posted (with the same results by the way).

Without orb, the black dragons are immune to scorpicore's paralyzing, basilisk's stoning, ghost dragon's aging, wyvern monarch's poisoning, unicorn's blind, mastergenie's spellcasting, zombie's disease, dread knight's curse, thunderbird's lightning and dragon fly's weakness. They are not immune to dendroid's bind and efreet sultan's fireshield.

With orb, the black dragons were vulnerable for all these specialties.

Some interesting observations:
Retaliation after basilisk's stoning = 100%
Retaliation after unicorn's blind = 50%
Retaliation after scorpicore's paralyzing = 25%

Keep in mind however that these tests were not set up to measure the exact effectiveness of this retaliation.

@Odvin: It sounds a bit funny to keep John van Caneghem from his work with questions such as 'What's a spell?'. Too bad I don't know his mail .
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted May 30, 2003 02:26 AM

Quote:

An anti magic garrison prevents all spellcasting. So it sounds logical that a spell is something that cannot be casted anymore in an anti magic garrison.


Sorry for correct you Wub, but this is only true for your Heroes3 Restoration of Erathia, in SoD the "Armor of the Damned" makes your heroe able to spell this four spells what this articact is special for (slow, curse, weakness and misfortune) and also on cursed ground you can cast the lower spells.

BTW what´s about this: a spell is something, a heroe could cast! Everything else are speciallities (like poisoning, aging, paralyzing etc..).

So if you couldn´t blind a necro-unit, this fact won´t change while carrying the orb of vul., because dead units don´t GET eyes when you got that orb.

The same procedure takes place with the troglodytes, you can´t blind them even with the orb, because they don´t get eyes!

As well poisoning don´t functions on golems, ´cause they don´t have BLOOD in their vanes, and they won´t get blood there if you carry the orb, got it?

The "binding" speciallity from the woodies will function allways, because imo this has nothing to do with magic, because if you try to get in the very deep forrest, you will hardly get out of there, won´t you?

No i tested some of your ideas and i got different results:
BTW, I carried the orb of vul. in every battle.


I got 3500 zombies parted in 7 stacks against 140 blackies parted in 7 stacks. --> they suffer disease!

I got 1050 thunderbirds in 7 stacks against the same blackies. --> they suffered the Lightning bolt!

I got 1050 wyvern monarchs in 7 stacks against the same blackies --> they suffered the poisoning!


Now something about the "Fire-shield".

I don´t think this is really a spell, it´s more like, uuuhh, how could i explain this?

I think it´s like a puddle of water, when you strike in, there will some water come out and make you wet. So if a Blacky strikes into it (fire puddle), fire comes out and hurts him.

It doesn´t function with phoenixes, because fire can´t hurt fire, even if you carry the orb, fire COULD NOT hurt fire.


Next problem was the poisoning-cure-dispel question.

To poison a unit, that means that it is, let me say, INJURED. So you only can cure an injury, but not dispel, the same way, a first-aid tent will do, but this tent will do that only for the health-points in that round, a cure spell will do it completly.

If a Scorpicore paralyzes another unit, that won´t be an injury, will it? So there the dispel will function.


So my resume is, every unit-speciality will not be influenced by the orb (i mean the specialities, that could make DAMAGE or negativ effects in any way, not the positive ones like mindspell immunity etc..), but will also not turn an undead or nonliving monster into a living one!

Hope, this isn´t rubbish at all



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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 30, 2003 04:36 AM
Edited By: Wub on 29 May 2003

Hi Angelito,

I appreciate it when my test results are looked at critically. Some reactions though.

It's good that you added that the armor of the damned works in an anti-magic garrison, since I can't test that with my RoE version of course. In my version you can cast level 1 spells on cursed ground though.

As for your definition of 'spell'; that cannot completely explain the magic immunity of black dragons. Black dragons are immune to aging. So that suggests that aging is a spell. However, according to your definition of a spell, aging is not a spell. After all a hero cannot cast aging. As you see this is contradictory. These contradiction are the reason that I can't say what a spell exactly is.

I must say that your explanations about the orb of invulnerability make a lot of sense. But I think that logic can deceive you in some cases. For example: you say that poisoning doesn't work on golems. That would indeed make sense since, as you say, golems don't have veins. But using the same logic, you would assume that paralyze doesn't work on golems either. Yet it does, if I remember correctly.

An other example. Admittedly, it is very logical that binding works against black dragons, since binding doesn't really seem to have anything to do with magic. At the same time, we know that dispel removes all spell effects. Then why can binding be dispelled?

I could mention some other examples where you end up with contradictory results if you follow logic. That's why I have done some testing to get knowledge about the game. It is good to read that you have done some testing too. Our results are not different by the way, in the contrary. I tested disease, poisoning, paralyzing etc. on black dragons without the orb equipped, you did equip the orb. So our results complement each other perfectly: it makes sense that disease does not work on blackies without orb, but that it does work with orb. It saves me a lot of time if I don't have to test that, great .

EDIT: I just found something interesting. Even if you don't have the orb of vulnerability equipped, you can dispel binding from black dragons. But you cannot cure binding.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted May 30, 2003 05:16 AM

Hi Wub!

I think you´re right, my theory has some big holes, especially in the question about the magic resistance of the blackies. But i told you my thoughts baising on the orb of vulnerability and what it could make and what not.
But the problem with the magic resistance and all the specialites is, imo, when 3do made this game, i don´t think they thought about it that much time, we the players do and they also couldn´t test all situations and all possibilities that could happen in this game like we all did. And therefor i think, these are only some "forgotten" problems, which the programmers didn´t expect or which didn´t came in their thoughts.

BTW, when i read the problem about the archery / offense skill in relation to the ballista, i have noticed a nice stuff while testing that, which i didn´t knew before:
My Ballista has ENDLESS shots.
If it shoots more than 24 times, their will be a -1 or -2 in the list "remaining shots". Did you know that?

greets
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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted May 30, 2003 04:39 PM

Quote:
Hi Angelito,


An other example. Admittedly, it is very logical that binding works against black dragons, since binding doesn't really seem to have anything to do with magic. At the same time, we know that dispel removes all spell effects. Then why can binding be dispelled?


EDIT: I just found something interesting. Even if you don't have the orb of vulnerability equipped, you can dispel binding from black dragons. But you cannot cure binding.


I think I can explain something about this, I think the binding are a spell, but isn't a spell that affect directly to the enemy unit, because the binding is just a plant who grow up, and take the enemy legs and this doesn't affect to the creature directly like the poison, and when you cast dispell this plants dissapear, you can't cast cure because the cure is a spell that "cure" the unit, and in this case the unit just are trapped in a lot of plants I think that is...
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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2003 05:11 PM

The orb of vulnerability

This post is going to show the complete results of all spellcasting on black dragons in three conditions: no orb equipped, you have orb equipped, opponent has orb equipped. From the results of these tests I will formulate a hypothesis that can probably explain everything that we didn’t understand about the orb. But first a reaction on Lord_Crusaders post.

What you say makes sense, Lord_Crusader. Until now, I hadn’t really tested if binding could be cured. Instead I tested if cure works on black dragons (which I did by binding them). But upon reading your post, I got the idea to test the former as well. I know it’s a bit confusing all this, so I’ll just give the results (no orbs equipped):

Black dragons are not immune to dispel.
Black dragons are immune to cure.
Binding can be dispelled.
Binding can not be cured.


Now for the second part, spellcasting on black dragons. As I said, I tested this in three conditions:

1. No orb of vulnerability equipped.
2. The one who casts the spell also has the orb equipped.
3. The one who casts the spell does not have the orb equipped.

There is also a 4th condition: both players have the orb equipped. I did not test this. It is important to note that the heroes who casted the spells did not master any magic school.

Condition 1: Not surprisingly, when there is no orb equipped, your black dragons and your opponent’s black dragons are immune to all spells. They are not immune to the effect of spells cast upon other creatures, of course. So they do less damage against shielded creatures and take more damage from blessed creatures. This also explains why black dragons take damage from the fire shield spell.

Interesting observation: If you don’t have fire magic, so that you can only affect one unit with berserk, then berserk is still considered to be an area spell. This means that you cast the spell on the combat hex and if there happens to stand a creature that is not immune to berserk, then it is affected. So you can cast berserk on the place where the black dragons stand, but they are not affected, even though you read the message: Cast berserk on the black dragons. Also, if there happens to stand a friendly creature on the combat hex, that unit can be affected as well. I assume you can use this to destroy your own catapult to prevent it from taking castle walls down (not tested though). Sometimes there are also some strange side effects.

Condition 2: If you have the orb equipped, you can cast all spells on your dragons and you can cast all spells on your opponent’s black dragons. No surprising observations here.

Condition 3: You cast a spell while your opponent has the orb equipped. This is a complicating condition. Not surprisingly, you can cast any spell you want on your opponent’s black dragons. But, and this is very strange, your own black dragons are still immune to any spells that you cast. This has a positive and a negative side. The negative side is that you can’t cast beneficial spells on your own black dragons (stone skin, shield, prayer, frenzy etc.). The positive side is that your dragons are also immune to any ‘collateral’ damage from your spells (armageddon, berserk, chain lightning, meteor shower). So if you don’t have the orb, while your opponent has and you cast armageddon, then your black dragons will not take damage, while his black dragons will. And if your opponent casts armageddon, then both his and your dragons will take damage.

Some interesting observations:
While you can’t cast any beneficial spells on your black dragons in this condition, you can cast dispel on them. This is probably because they weren’t immune for that in the first place (see what I wrote in the beginning of my post).

Also in this condition, sacrifice does not work on black dragons. So if your opponent has the orb, than you can neither resurrect black dragons, nor sacrifice them.


These were all my observations. As you see, I only tested this with black dragons. But it is logical to assume that the orb deals with the natural resistance of other creatures likewise. Thus you can come to the following hypothesises (which obviously need more testing):

With no orb equipped, all natural resistance functions.

If the one who casts the spells has the orb equipped, then all natural resistance is negated.

If the one who casts the spells does not have the orb equipped, then the natural resistance of his opponent’s creatures are negated. The natural resistance of his own creatures still functions.


Some applications: (but keep in mind that this is still a hypothesis as of yet)

Thorgrims resistance is not always fully negated with the orb equipped. When he casts armageddon while his opponent has the orb, he will still resist the damage. His resistance doesn’t help him against armageddon when the spellcaster has the orb.

This hypothesis can also fully explain what Rychenroller wrote earlier about his fight with Midnight. I only don’t know exactly what ‘natural’ magic resistance is. Apparently, Thorgrims resistance is naturally. I have to figure out if magical resistance artis are ‘natural’ as well. And I have to test this hypothesis with other creatures than black dragons as well. But as of now, it seems to explain the peculiar behavior of the orb of vulnerability pretty well.

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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted May 31, 2003 07:17 PM
Edited By: lord_crusader on 31 May 2003

Unnatural Resistance???

Thanks Wub, your posts are very interesting and helpful, and you inspired me to test some things, since I see the legend that say: "the orb of vulnerability negates all NATURAL resistances" I wonder what is the unnatural resistances??? and in the beggining I think that the unnatural resistances was the resistance skill from a hero, like thorgrim, but when I see that the orb of vulnerability affect the resistance skill too, well then what is the unnatural resistance???? I think I know now,  I test the follow things...

1. A heroe without orb of vulnerability, and with the power of the dragon father(Heroe A). And a Heroe with orb of vulnerability and without the power of the dragon father(Heroe B).

Results:

- The hero A can cast to the heroe B units all the spells that we know he can cast on a hero B units when the hero B has the orb, I mean the tests made for wub, about the armageddon, chainlighting, etc.

- well the interesting thing is that the orb only affect to the heroe B units, heroe A can cast any spell from 1 to 4 level to the heroe B units,

- Also heroe B can't cast any spell from the level 1 to 4, to the heroe A units,

- For last both heroe A and Heroe B, can cast any level 5 spell in any unit

2. Both heroes A and B, with orb and with the power of the dragon father

Results:

- In this case both heroes can't cast any spell from the level 1 to 4 to the enemy and allied units...

- Only the level 5 spell works

This test are made with the follow army in both sides:
100 black dragons
100 phoenixesx
1000 efreets

With this test I think finally I find the answer, the unnatural resistance is the resistance about the power of the dragon father

NOTE: I only test with this units, and maybe my theory have some big holes , also I hope, you testers boys can find this holes

LC

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted June 02, 2003 02:16 AM
Edited By: Wub on 1 Jun 2003

Natural and unnatural resistance

Just like Lord_Crusader, I have asked myself which magic resistance is negated by the orb and which magic is not negated by the orb. But first some reactions on previous posts.

@Angelito: It’s very interesting that you found that a ballista has an endless number of shots. I didn’t know that, but when I tested it with Gurnisson and expert artillery, I found it too. I did know that if grand elves shoot with only one shot left, they can still shoot twice. Funny stuff .

@Lord_Crusader: Thanks for testing the power of the dragon father with the orb. It’s great to have data about the expansions as well, because I can’t acquire them (only have RoE). I didn’t found any holes in your tests, though I wonder if it is true that both heroes could cast any level 5 spell on any unit. Because in line with my previous post, I would have expected that hero A can’t cast magic mirror on his own black dragons.

As I said, I did more testing and I didn’t find any observations that were in conflict with the hypothesis in my previous post. For all you lazy bums who forget what it was and don’t feel like scrolling back here is it one more time in simplified form:

The orb of invulnerability negates natural resistance exactly as you would expect, with only one exception: Natural resistance is not negated when Hero A wants to cast a spell on his own while Hero B has the orb.

Now I only have to figure out what falls under ‘natural’ resistance or in other words: which resistance is negated by the orb and which isn’t? I tested all creature, artifact and spell resistance, but that required such massive testing that I may have overseen something now and then (my head started swimming pretty soon ). Also I assumed that for example dwarf and battle dwarf resistance are similar, so I tested only one of them. Same goes for some artis and spells.

Creature Resistance

Dwarf/Battle dwarf: Natural resistance; negated by orb (tried 10 times or so)

Unicorn/War unicorn: This resistance is not negated by the orb, even though the magic aura seemed to be effective a lot less than 20% of the cases.

Green dragon/Gold dragon: Natural resistance

Stone Golem/Iron Golem/Gold Golem/Diamond Golem: Partly negated by orb. Their spell resistance did still function, but they became vulnerable to spells such as blind and berserk. They still could not be resurrected.

Gargoyle/Obsidian Gargoyle: I don’t know what the resistance of a gargoyle exactly consists of, but I do know they can’t be resurrected. With the orb, they still can’t.

Efreet/Efreet sultan: Resistance is natural. So it must be possible to cast fire shield on sultans with the orb equipped .

Undead: I tested this with skeletons and assumed that all undead units had the same resistance. The orb only works partly: undead remain immune to bless, curse, blind and sorrow, but berserk, frenzy and hypnotize seem to work.

Troglodytes: With the orb equipped, troggies remain immune to blind. Reminder from Angelito: troglodytes don’t suddenly get eyes when the orb is equipped.

The elementals: I did not test them completely, because I heard that their resistance was altered in the expansions and that they are immune to opposite magic schools. Don’t know if this is true, so somebody else can better execute these tests. I do know that fire elemntals become vulnerable to blind, berserk and curse with the orb.

Skill resistance and artifact resistance

The magic resistance skill is negated with the orb, also when you have Thorgrim. But remember the hypothesis: Thorgrims resistance still works if he casts a spell (armageddon) and the opponent has the orb. Also the resistance artis (boots of polarity, surcoat of counterpoise and garniture of interference) seem to be negated by the orb. I only tested this by equipping all 3 of them at once and casting 10 spells, though. But all these anti-spell artifacts such as pendant of second sight, sphere of permancence, pendant of life, pendant of dispassion, pendant of negativity etc. etc. seem to be considered as unnatural resistance. Lord_Crusader already tested that the power of the dragon father is not negated by the orb.

Spell resistance

The spells anti-magic and protection from fire/water/air/earth still work with the orb.

That’s all my testing for now. Don’t know if there will come more soon, because as I said, my head is swimming right now .
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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted June 02, 2003 06:24 PM

Quote:

The elementals: I did not test them completely, because I heard that their resistance was altered in the expansions and that they are immune to opposite magic schools. Don’t know if this is true, so somebody else can better execute these tests. I do know that fire elemntals become vulnerable to blind, berserk and curse with the orb.



About this WUB, I made some test in the heroes complete version, and this was the results:

Both armies:
100 storm elementals - (air)
100 energy elementals - (fire)
100 magma elementals - (earth)
100 ice elementals - (water)
100 magic elementals
100 phoenixes
100 black drangons

RESULTS

With the orb in any side, all this units become vulnerable, blind, berserker, armageddon and curse, also all this units are vulnerable to lightings spells, also ice spells(ice bold and ice ring) too



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Kuma
Kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted June 18, 2003 10:39 PM

Dunno if I should give u a QP for this, or a warning for spamming LOL.

on MMPortals.com is more of those numbers. I found it useful
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 18, 2003 10:58 PM

Quote:
Bron 10 20 Gnoll 4 7 PrimitiveLizardman 2 4 SerpentFly
Uhm, no .
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted June 19, 2003 12:53 AM

QP sounds good IMO

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Kuma
Kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted June 19, 2003 01:52 AM

Hehehe. yep. QP for X
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted June 19, 2003 02:52 AM

I can tell you put alot into this Xarcik
I think you deserve one as well.
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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted June 19, 2003 09:55 AM

Very useful information xar.  Well done!  I found much of this information in the heroes complete manual.  I didnt know it existed on my computer for a while.  In case anyone else doesnt its located at: Crogram files\3do\heroes3complete\homm3.pdf.   There is also a manual for sod in there and a tutorial (not a good one though) .  I have the heroes complete version, so i dont know if this is available in other versions.  But i would think so.   There is a whole wack of other info in there, but requires much reading.
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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!

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chubby051
chubby051


Promising
Known Hero
King of All That Are Fat
posted June 19, 2003 10:14 AM

I think Xarfax needs a works sited page or a bibliography with that post.  cheap attempt for a qp, but hell, give him one just for typing all that crap out. lol  Would have been a lot easier to just post the link though.

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chubby051
chubby051


Promising
Known Hero
King of All That Are Fat
posted June 19, 2003 05:05 PM

hehe, just givin ya hard time

Didn't know about the wisdom skill at level 5, but I think you made a mistake.  A might hero ALWAYS gets offered a magic school at level 4.  I believe it happens again at a higher level, but I am not sure which one.  And it is the opposite for Magic heroes, they ALWAYS get a might skill offered to them at level 4, and one other level.  YOU told me that ya goof, and I know it is at level 4 because when playing extreme, if I don't get earth at level 4, I change mains temporarily unless I have a super hero.  It is yet to fail me, everygame I have played, a magic school was offered to me at level 4.  Not sure if this works the same for Battle Mages though, they seem to get offered might skills more then any other magic heroes, which makes sence.

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chubby051
chubby051


Promising
Known Hero
King of All That Are Fat
posted June 19, 2003 06:13 PM

hehe, well I just call it the stupidest creature in the game, but I think in reality it is the most bug infested creature in the game.  Not sure if I should post it because this tactic HAS to be a bug in game.  I will run it past Kuma first, see what he thinks, if he ok's it, i will post it.  I think most of the vets and some other people probably already know about it anyways.

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