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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: "Run Forest.... RUN!"
Thread: "Run Forest.... RUN!" This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted June 26, 2003 02:31 PM
Edited By: Kuma on 6 Jul 2003

Quote:

Now it would need some testing to find out the probabilities of each stack. I assume its about (100% 75% 25%). And if relating probabilities ("only if 2stack occurs the 3 stack can occur") i assume it would be (100% 75% 50%).



It's 100 -88 -25.

The 2nd I wouldn't know, but seems te be possible to get 3rd stack and no 2nd.
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Nemesis
Nemesis

Tavern Dweller
posted July 03, 2003 02:54 AM

Quote:

It's 100 -88 -25.

The 2nd I wouldn't know, but seems te be possible to get 3rd stack and no 2nd.


Yes, it is.
It happened to me a bunch of times to have Gurnisson with NO ballista AND few orcs.

btw: this is one of the best thread I ever seen here ... a special thank's to Xarfax111 for copying/pasting the code on the skills and correcting some mistakes to be found on MMPortals ... GREAT JOB man! :-)

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I
I


Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2003 12:36 AM

Correct.
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 19, 2003 03:35 PM

Quote:
It happened to me a bunch of times to have Gurnisson with NO ballista AND few orcs.
I think Ballista/First Aid Tent counts as a level 2 creature, when the hero´s starting troops are calculated. That´s also why there´s a 12% chance that they start with no war machine.
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted July 19, 2003 03:50 PM

yupp, lews is correct.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted July 22, 2003 01:47 AM
Edited By: Wub on 21 Jul 2003

Creature specialists

I don't know if the working of creature specialties is common knowledge, but at least for me it wasn't. So I ran some tests in which I varied the creature specialist and his level. You may find the results interesting:

A creature specialists increases the defense and attack skills off a certain creature after level X. X is here also the level of the creature in which the hero specializes. From there on the attack and defense skills of that creature are doubled every 20 levels if it is a level 1 creature, every 40 levels if it is a level 2 creature, every 60 levels it is a level 3 creature etc.

That was the short summary of the results. I'll explain it a bit further. As always it is very tricky to be very sure that all your results are correct, so keep that in mind when reading.

Independent of a creature specialist's level, he always gives the creature in which he specializes +1 speed. This speed is also used to travel further on the adventure map as mentioned earlier in this thread.

But a creature specialist also starts increasing the attack and defense skills from a certain level. This level is equal to the level of the creature. So troglodytes start getting extra attack and defense when Shakti is level 1, Harpies get extra attack and defense when Lorelei is level 2, Edric gives his griffins extra stats when he is level 3 etc.

When the hero reaches that level, he immediately gives his creatures +1 attack and +1 defense. This attack and defense will further increase in a specific pattern: over a set number of levels the bonus that a creature gets from the hero will be equal to the base amount of attack and defense skill that the creature started with.

For example: Ignatius specializes in imps. Imps start with 2 attack and 3 defense. Now after a certain amount of levelups, Ignatius will increase the attack skill of his imps with 2 and the defense skill with 3. Troglodytes start with 4 attack and 3 defense, so Shakti will add 4 attack and 3 defense when he has gained a certain amount of levels. This increase in stats will develop fairly, but not exactly balanced.

The level that the hero needs to be to double that base amount of attack and defense skills depends on the level of the creature in which the hero specializes. It is quite difficult to test this exactly with higher level creatures but I am convinced that it works as follows:

Heroes that specialize in level 1 creatures add the base amount of attack and defense skills every 20 levels. So Shakti, who starts adding attack and defense skills at level 1, will have given his trogs +4 attack and +3 defense at level 20. Or to be even more exact, level 21 is when Shakti starts giving more than +4 attack and +3 defense.

Heroes that specialize in level 2 creatures add the base amount of attack and defense skills every 40 levels. So Lorelei, who starts adding attack and defense skills at level 2, will have given her harpies +6 attack and +5 defense at level 41.

Heroes that specialize in level 3 creatures add the base amount of attack and defense skills every 60 levels. So Edric, who starts adding attack and defense skills at level 3, will have given his griffins +8 attack and +8 defense at level 62.

Heroes that specialize in level 4 creatures add the base amount of attack and defense skills every 80 levels. So Bron, who starts adding attack and defense skills at level 4, will have given his basilisks +11 attack and +11 defense at level 83.

Tamika will have to wait for level 125(!) to add an attack and defense of 16 to her black knights .

Well you get the idea. It is also interesting to examine the bonus that a creature specialist gives to the upgraded version in comparison to the unupgraded version of a creature. It appears that for upgraded creatues it works similarly.

Let's again take Shakti as an example. At level 20 he will give his unupgraded troglodytes +4 attack and +3 defense. But if he carries infernal troglodytes at level 20, he will give them more. The reason is that infernal troglodytes have 5 attack and 4 defense. So at level 20, Shakti will give his infernal troglodytes +5 attack and +4 defense. This makes upgrading the structure of the creature that the hero specializes in a bit more worthwile. Because normally, the increase in attack and defense skill when you upgrade normal trogs is +1 and +1, but with a level 20 Shakti it is +2 and +2.

Having this information, maybe it is interesting to end with a look at which creature specialty is the most useful. This is a bit subjective of course, but I think Galthran's skeleton specialty is the best. The specialty works from level 1 already, boosts his starting army enormously, gives a bigger increase in attack and defense than for example Shakti does and above all skeletons will be of utmost importance in the endgame as well.
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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted July 22, 2003 02:39 AM

Clear and precise - Wub rocks as usually.
And, well, for me such an exact explanation of speciality was a new information, too
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.

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kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted July 22, 2003 10:40 AM

Didn't know this either; also don't know what I should do with that info as well
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted July 23, 2003 01:38 AM

Quote:
Didn't know this either; also don't know what I should do with that info as well


What do you think about a QP Kuma???

Again wub this are great information...
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Dig Out Your Soul

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kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted July 23, 2003 10:07 AM

Nah, if I give Wub another QP he will have to become a mod
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted July 25, 2003 12:30 PM

So Kuma, ur denying Wub a qp because you dont want him to become a mod? Isnt that a bit crule????
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kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted July 25, 2003 12:47 PM

The world is a mean place; face it
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted August 04, 2003 04:53 AM

Spell specialists.

Thank you all very much for the kind words . I admit that knowing about creature specialties isn't thát useful, but I merely posted it because I was curious how it would work and I personally thought it was interesting to know. But I am aware that if you have a solid experience with the game, then you do not need to know the exact numbers because the specialty bonus gives a passive benefit. That is probably also why not so experienced players assume that 6th level creature specialists have a better specialty than 1st level creature specialists. You can easier prove them wrong now .

I think that many players will find the following more useful to know, since it concerns active benefits. I am talking about spell specialties here. When you cast a spell, it can make a difference to know exactly how effective it is.

It appears that damage spells such as chain lightning and ice bolt have a different effect calculation when cast by a hero that specializes in it, than effect spells such as stone skin and weakness. So I ran a few separate tests for them. Keep in mind that I only tested a few damage and effect spells, so I cannot say for sure that every specialty works in the same way, but the results do suggest that strongly.

Damage spells

Let's say you want to cast the ice bolt spell with Alagar. You open your spellbook and the computer shows how much damage will be done. So what's the problem? Well, the amount of damage that is written in your spellbook, is only the basic amount, without the specialty bonus. If you cast that ice bolt spell, you will receive a message saying something like: 'the ice bolt does 126 extra damage'. Of course you can easily use Odvin's heroic calculator but there appeared to be a little glitch in it (I'll come to that in a minute). So what I did was casting ice bolt with Alagar at multiple levels and against multiple creature levels (no mastery of water magic) and I also did that with Solmyr and chainlightning. The results for both spells were the same, so I assume that all damage spells work similarly. I found the following formula:

Spell specialty bonus = (hero level/creature level)* 3%.

It is very important that in this calculation the number (hero level/creature level) is rounded down. The heroic calculator does not round this number down and therefore the results are often slightly different.

I'll give an example:
A level 17 Alagar with an ice bolt that has a base damage of 385 casts his spell on a stack of wights. How much damage?

Hero level/creature level = 17/3=5,66666. Now this number is rounded down to 5. The bonus is 5*3%=15%. 15% of 385= 57,75. If you add that to the base amount of 385 you get 385 + 57,75 = 442,75. This is rounded off to 443.


Effect spells

I tested Merist with her stone skin at several hero levels and against all creature levels at expert efficiency. I also tested Mirlanda with her weakness spell at the same way, but on basic efficiency as well. The results were again similar, so I assume that a spell specialty such as bloodlust also works this way. It is important to note that all these spells increase/decrease a certain stat with 3 at no/basic efficiency and with 6 at advanced/expert efficiency.

It is very surprising that hero level did not seem to matter for these kind of spell specialist heroes! So weakness cast by a level 1 Mirlanda is equally effective as when she casts it at level 40! The bonus when the hero casts the spell with advanced or expert efficiency is as follows:

When cast on level 1 creatures, the spell increases/decreases the creature stat with 9. That is a bonus of 9-6=3.
On level 2 creatures, the spell increases or decreases the creature stat with 9; a bonus of 3 again.
On level 3 creatures a bonus of 2 for a total of 8.
On level 4 creatures a bonus of 2 for a total of 8.
On level 5 creatures a bonus of 1 for a total of 7.
On level 6 creatures a bonus of 1 for a total of 7.
When cast on level 7 creatures, there is no bonus so the effectivity is equal to the base effectivity; 6.

When the hero casts the spell without or only with basic efficiency, the bonuses are the same, but of course the base efficiency is different. So on level 1 creatures, the bonus is still 3 for total efficiency of 3+3=6.

I hope everything is a bit clear now. One final thing is to keep in mind that many hero specialties in Armageddon's Blade work differently. If I remember well, Ciele's magic arrow simply adds 50% damage for example. This is also true for creature specialists. On an unrelated note: recently I finally bought myself Armageddon's Blade so I can also test expansion things now . But for the moment I am fed up again with testing, maybe except for a few minor tweakings of previous tests.
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zilonite
zilonite


Famous Hero
posted August 06, 2003 08:28 AM

Top as ususal, Wub. Only how about ressurection specialists - do they get the same 3% bonus as damage dudes?
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2003 04:54 AM
Edited By: Wub on 25 Aug 2003

Some additional information about previous tests

I'm not planning to test something new soon, but I chose to research some previous subjects about the orb of vulnerability, number of hostile stacks and spell specialists a bit more thoroughly. I think the results are still quite interesting, though.

Let's start with spell specialists. Yes, the resurrection specialty works the same as damage spell specialties. So the formula also is:

Spell specialty bonus = (hero level/creature level)* 3%.

The problem with the resurrection spell is also that your spellbook does not say the exact number of hitpoints that will be revived (instead it says something like: will resurrect 120 more hitpoints than at basic efficiency). So for those who didn't know yet, at basic efficiency the number of resurrected hitpoints = (spellpower * 50) + 40.

The meteor shower spell specialty also follows the formula
(hero level/creature level)* 3%, so I think it is reasonable to believe that all damage spell specialties do so.

I noted that I hadn't tested the most important effect spell specialty yet: haste. Haste specialists such as Terek do exactly what you would predict from my previous post; they give level 1 and 2 creatures a +3 speed bonus on top of the normal effect, level 3 and 4 creatures a +2 bonus, level 5 and 6 creatures a +1 bonus and level 7 creatures no bonus. In case you didn't know yet, (basic) haste adds +3 speed and advanced/expert adds +5.

spell resistance artis and the orb of vulnerability

In a previous post I stated that all those pendants seemed to be considered as unnatural resistance. I said it carefully because I didn't test them all (just the most important ones). Now I tested all pendants and I can confirm that this is true. So if you have the orb of vulnerability equipped and your opponent the pendant of second sight, you cannot blind him.

I also discovered that the sphere of permanence is not negated by the orb. But I found that the badge of courage is negated by the orb. As you probably knew already, the badge of courage not only gives +1 moral, but also makes you immune to mind spells. Well, this mind spell immunity does not work anymore with the orb of vulnerability.

number of hostile creature stacks and strength of creatures

I'd like to end with something that I found very interesting, but that might also have some unexpected uses. As I said before, if you engage neutral monsters on the adventure map the AI will make more stacks when it is more confident that it will win the battle. Let's say that I attack a group of 1000 gremlins with 999 gremlins and I notice that the AI makes 5 stacks. After that I reload and attack the 1000 gremlins with 1000 gremlins myself and see that the AI makes 4 stacks. Apparently, when I engage the AI with an army that is exactly as strong as that of its own, it switches from 5 stacks to 4 stacks in this case. Big deal you may say.

But now I exchange my 1000 gremlins for 1000 imps and start seeking again for the point where the AI switches from 4 stacks to 5 stacks. This appears to be at 880 imps. Apparently, the computer estimates that 1 gremlin is equal to 0,88 imps. This way I tested a bunch of level 1 creatures, to see how strong the AI estimated them. The results of my few tests seemed to match exactly with this list made by Zaronji.

This knowledge could have multiple uses. I think it is reasonable to assume that one of the factors that the AI bases its moves on, is the strength of the stacks of your army. It may also help you to predict if a neutral monster stack will flee or not. You might also use this for taking out utopias with only a bit of fodder as is described here. Because instead of varying the number of fodder in the stack, you may vary the type of creature, hoping that the dragons attack the strongest creature first. Or in other words, instead of of using a 8-9-7-5-5-5-5 formation, it might work to bring 1 pikeman-1 centaur-1 skeleton-1 gremlin-1 gremlin-1 gremlin-1 gremlin. That is cheaper and you might have that fodder from your third or fourth hero. Anyway, it's just an idea. I'm not going to test it though, because my testing haze has lifted for now .
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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted September 23, 2003 09:07 AM

But he's still damn right with the 2nd statement!

Oh, how did I overlook this thread?

If it's about test - i tested 20 lev Thorgrimm with all res arts and Battle dwarves - and tried to cast bad spell on them. They didn't resisted - I was said : this spell affects no one, and was not allowed to cast!

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Vadskye91
Vadskye91


Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
posted October 12, 2003 03:54 PM

Amazing posts by all the testers.  One thing: in one of my games, I could CONTROL who the castle shot at.  Now I'll never know why on my own, because the hero died in the fight, but I wondered if anyone knows why this happened, because I've never seen it before.  Maybe a couple tests would help?  I'd appriciate it.
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Knowledge is power...

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted August 25, 2004 07:08 AM

Amazing

This might be one of the most valuable HeroesIII threads on the internet.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2004 01:42 AM

Summon elementals

A strange thing that happened to me in the last game of heroes i played was related to retreating or surrendering in a battle where the opponent has only summoned elementals left.

I attacked his castle and i managed to surrender with around 10 harpies hags and a few medusa queens. He had only summoned elementals. What happened was that:

1. No hero gained any experience at the end of the battle.
2. The after battle screen showed me as the winner of the battle even though i surrendered
3. Even though his hero was defetead he could buy him from the tavern
4. He didn't lose the castle even though it said he lost the battle

If other people had similar situations or if anybody did any testing, I'd appreciate some clarifications on this matter. I did some testing around 2 years ago on this, but i forgot how the system works exactly.

PS: Another strange thing in that battle was that he couldn't cast blind (it said this spell will affect no one when he clicked it).
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ

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Ste
Ste


Promising
Famous Hero
Passed away
posted August 26, 2004 01:52 AM

indeed
here is my request. i will be making a script for WoG and i need to know everything about hero specialties and percentages. the script will calculate and show the exact percentage of every skill. like "vidomina's necromancy resurrects xx%". this has to include the level of the hero, the presence of artifacts, the presence of necromancy amplifiers and the presence of necro grail. or kyrre's specialty logistics - is the percentage 30(expert)+5*herolevel or something else? same for all non-creature and non-spell specialties. i will need a complete list of these like this
vidomina(lvl1)=xx%;
vidomina(lvl10)=xx%;
vidomina(lvl1)+dead man's boots=xx%;
vidomina(lvl10)+dead man's boots=xx%;
vidomina(lvl1)+necromancy amplifier=xx%;
vidomina(lvl10)+necromancy amplifier=xx%;
...

all info is apreciated
TIA
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The ultimate WoG tester

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