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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How do the offence and armorer skills work exactly?
Thread: How do the offence and armorer skills work exactly? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 30, 2004 03:32 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: angelito on 29 Mar 2004

How do the offence and armorer skills work exactly?

After testing the necromancy skill yesterday, tonight i took a deep view on the two "mighty" secondary skills.


Offense

There are some facts which everybody knows (i guess...) and some which were unknown to perhaps many of the users.

We know, that expert offense increases the inflicted damage by 30%.

But this is not the only fact which counts in damage
calculation.

The difference between the attack skill of attacking unit and defence skill of defending unit is also important.

This math looks like this:

(attack skill)-(defense skill) * 5% = extra damage

Here is the first fact, which was wrong mentioned in earlier posts. The maximum of extra damage is 300% and not 400%.

How do i know this?

I tested it of course..

Took 10 archangels and fought against 4000 peasants. I gave the hero some arties, so the attack skill of the archies raise up to 51. The peasants got a defence skill of 1.
This makes a difference of 50.
With the formula above, u can calculate, that the extra damage would be 250%.

And it came like this. The AA´s did a damage of 1900.
Normal damage is 500 (10*50), expert offense (30% of 500= 150), A/D extra damage (250% of 500= 1250)

But the maximum damage the AA´s could do was 2150.
500 normal
150 expert offense
1500 extra damage (300% of normal damage)

I tried to raise the attack skill up to 90 and the result was the same.


How does the hero speciality "offense" now work with this?

You know that the speciality means a 5% bonus on the offense skill per Level.

Note that all extra damage calculations are based on the normal damage. Same with this speciality.

I tested many situation and i think, when there is no level limit for the hero, then there is no damage limit.

Last test i´ve made was as follows:

CragHack with attack skill 85, Level 68, with 10 AA´s against 4000 peasants.
How much damage will he make?

Normal damage = 500
A/D difference = 1500 (amx. 300%)
Speciality offense: Level 68 * 5% = 340%, so he gets 340% of 30% (his normal expert offense skill), that makes 102% bonus added to his 30% which gives us finally 132% extra damage coz of offense skill. 132% of 500 (normal damage) is 660.
So he makes a damage of 2660 (500+1500+660).

U can see that the hero with the same stats but without offense speciality makes 510 points damage less!!
(Will mean in that example, that every single AA does 51 damage less!!)


Armorer

Expert armorer means that the inflicted damage is reduced by 15%.
But like it counts with the offense skill, the difference between defense skill and attack skill is important here as well.

But here is the first fact, which has to be written in bolt letters.

The help manual has this formular:
(defence skill)-(attack skill) * 2 % = damage reduction

Wub once posted this one:
(defence skill)-(attack skill) * 2,5 % = damage reduction


After testing the whole night, i can say, that both formulas are wrong!

The correct formula is like this:
(defence skill)-(attack skill) * 2,125 % = damage reduction

How did i come to this conclusion?

I tested with the same army.
10 AA´s against 4000 peasants
The peasants always did 1019 points damage. I reduced the D/A difference from 90 down to 28....allways 1019 damage.
On the D/A difference of 27, they did 1104 damage.
So we know here, that the maximum D/A difference that counts is 28.

When the peasants make a damage of 1019 instead of 4000 (which would be their normal damage (4000*1)), we have to calculate how much the damage was reduced here.

4000-1019 = 2981
2981/4000 * 100% = 74,5%

We know, that expert armorer reduces damage by 15%.
So the D/A difference in this case reduced the damage by 59,5% (74,5% - 15%).

We also know, that the maximum difference which counts is 28.

Conclusion: 59,5% / 28 = 2,125

I tested this with many other units and it ended allways with that fact!

But now comes the complicated fact:

A hero with speciality "armorer".
This adds 5% per Level to the damage reduction.
This works fine....until the D/A difference reaches this "magic" 28. When this difference is reached, the calculation changes (The only conclusion i could find):

I did the following tests:

4000 peasants attacked Tazar who had 1 peasant.

First test, Tazar was Level 1 and the D/A difference was 10.

Result: The peasants did 2527 instead of 4000 damage.
This is a reduction by 37% (works fine...15% armorer, 1*5% of 15%=0,75% coz of speciality, 10*2,125=21,25 coz of D/A diff.)

Second test, Tazar was Level 1 and the D/A difference was 28.
Result: The peasants did 1010 instead of 4000 damage.
This is a reduction of 74,75% (works fine....15% armorer, 0,75% coz of speciality, 28*2,125 = 59,5% coz of D/A diff.)

Third test, Tazar was Level 59 and the D/A difference was 28.
Result: The peasants did 488 instead of 4000 damage.
This is a reduction of 87,8%....doesn´t work fine..
This is 13,05% more damage than the second test. How could this come?

I only have this conclusion, which doesn´t fit exactly, but seems very close:

When reaching the maximum of D/A difference, the Level bonus for the hero with speciality "armorer" is not 5% from this point further, but 2,125 (same factor as for D/A difference!).

I know it doesn´t fit for about 0,5 points in these examples, but that could probably be a round up fault of the AI calculator.

I will test this circumstance a little bit more and perhaps i get the point....

But with these facts, i hope everyone can see, that these two stats are two of the most important secondary skills a hero can get!  
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KingofMinota...
KingofMinotaurs


Known Hero
Ruling the minotaurs below
posted March 30, 2004 07:27 AM

Not a bad post Angelito. Though, if there are ppl that think the way I do, it is too much to read and I am sure that ppl might just look at the damage dealt than trying to calculate how much each creature might do . Anyway, still a good post and it looks like you took a while to do it to.
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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted March 30, 2004 07:34 AM

All Hail Angelito!  Great Info!


Your might even replace Wub.
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.

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Frick
Frick


Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
posted March 30, 2004 09:01 AM

Exactly. All hail!

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albertarslan
albertarslan


Hired Hero
Ancient powerful wizards-DRUID
posted March 30, 2004 07:20 PM

Nice post angelito,

Now I at least know how much damage my monster will do.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 30, 2004 07:26 PM

Quote:
All Hail Angelito!  Great Info!


Your might even replace Wub.



U know very well, that i´m far far away from the perfect explanations our great Wub gave us in past and present times.

But thx for the compliment anyway..

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KingofMinota...
KingofMinotaurs


Known Hero
Ruling the minotaurs below
posted March 30, 2004 07:30 PM

Yeah Wub has some good explanations, but above in an earlier post of this thread, you said Wub was wrong . How could that be?
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 30, 2004 08:48 PM

Quote:
Yeah Wub has some good explanations, but above in an earlier post of this thread, you said Wub was wrong . How could that be?


I think that could probably happened ´coz of different versions / patches.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2004 04:12 PM
Edited By: Wub on 1 Apr 2004

Hello Angelito,

No need to call me ‘great’ and such unless you want to frighten me away, especially because with your newly acquired online experience you would sweep me away in a 1 vs 1 game . I found this thread quite interesting to read, so maybe I can add some things here and there.

Quote:
Here is the first fact, which was wrong mentioned in earlier posts. The maximum of extra damage is 300% and not 400%.

Yes, to my knowledge this is true as well. Maximum damage is 400%, which is the same as an additional 300%. I think this is the source of the original confusion.

Quote:
The help manual has this formular:
(defence skill)-(attack skill) * 2 % = damage reduction

Wub once posted this one:
(defence skill)-(attack skill) * 2,5 % = damage reduction

After testing the whole night, i can say, that both formulas are wrong!


I’m happy that you question it when I dare to say something like the ‘manual is mistaken’. My experience too is that it is usually the poster that is mistaken, not the manual. But I still think the formula that I posted is correct. To my knowledge, the tricky thing here is that armorer does not work similar to offense. Expert armorer does not decrease the basic damage with 15%, but the modified damage. So let’s say 20 angels attack a stack of archangels that are equipped with advanced armorer and no additional defense points. The base damage is 1000. A/D difference is 10, so the damage reduction is 10*2.5%=25%. 25% of 1000 is 250, so the angels do 1000-250=750 damage. Now this 750 damaged is again reduced by 10% due to advanced armorer. 10% of 750 = 75, so advanced armorer reduces the damage to 750 – 75 = 675. Now there is still this glitch that armorer seems to reduce damage with an extra point. So that would make the total damage 674.

When you use this damage calculation on your tests, you would get the following:

Quote:
10 AA´s against 4000 peasants
The peasants always did 1019 points damage. I reduced the D/A difference from 90 down to 28....allways 1019 damage.


First, as you already suggested, when Defense – Attack > 28, no additional damage is reduced (after all, 28*2.5=70, which is the maximum damage reduction).

4000 peasants do 4000 base damage. Due to the high defense stat of the archangels, the maximum damage reduction is applied. So the peasants do only 30% damage, which is 0.3*4000=1200. Now expert armorer comes into play, which further reduces damage to 85%. 85% of 1200 = 1020. Then there’s damage reduction ‘bonus’ of 1 damage point which makes the total damage 1020 – 1 = 1019.

Quote:
4000 peasants attacked Tazar who had 1 peasant.

First test, Tazar was Level 1 and the D/A difference was 10.

Result: The peasants did 2527 instead of 4000 damage.


Base damage = 4000
Damage reduction due to D/A difference = 25% --> 0.75*4000=3000
Damage reduction due to Tazar’s expert armorer at level 1 = 15.75% --> 0.8425*3000= 2528.
Damage reduction due to armor glitch = 1 --> 2528 – 1 = 2527.

Quote:
Second test, Tazar was Level 1 and the D/A difference was 28.
Result: The peasants did 1010 instead of 4000 damage.


This can be explained as follows: 4000*1*0.3*0.8425-1= 1010.

Quote:
Third test, Tazar was Level 59 and the D/A difference was 28.
Result: The peasants did 488 instead of 4000 damage.


The calculation would be: 4000*1*0.3*0.4075-1=488.

I have also come to some interesting observations for the damage calculation in heroes:

As controversial as it may sound, Gundula profits more from the offense special itself than Crag Hack, as Crag Hack has so many attack points (this is not to suggest that Gundula is a better main hero of course).

If Crag Hack would level up as a beastmaster, he would be more powerful (well, at least from a mathematical point of view because the higher the A/D difference, the lower the percentage of damage that offense adds.

It seems that heroes with armorer take double damage from arrow towers in siege combat (this is known for quite a while actually, I didn’t find this out)

Often, a ballista does not really have a chance to do double damage at all. The base damage is doubled, not the total damage. So if you have expert artillery, you should not expect a total damage that is 4 times as large as the combat statistics indicate.

And finally, due to the glitch where armorer reduces damage with one extra point, this skill becomes a lot more desirable (even at basic efficiency) when the battles are very small. I remember playing “Dead Forest” (if I’m correct) by Jörgen Linde, a map with many tiny, difficult battles where one grand elf was a very important part of my army. It made quite a difference that when I got armorer, an attack that would have done 2 damage to my elf was now only half as deadly .  

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kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted April 01, 2004 09:22 PM

Gave red star here as well.
For this post and for patiencely helping out the new member wif his campaign.
Thx for being a 'giver' to this forum.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 02, 2004 02:50 AM

First of all thx to Kuma for that "reward"...

Second a thx to our (nearly great..) Wub..

That thing about this one extra point reudction which comes along with armorer is very interesting.

But how come, that our both theories about the damage reduction formular fit until this magic "28 difference"?
After reaching that point, only your formular seems to work...

I think i will make some tests with fights bewteen two heroes with offense and defense speciality (like CragHack against Tazar). I´m very interested in those results.

Will post them here when ready.

BTW....I think i know the map (or at least a similar one) u mentioned in ur post....1  month with small small army and much fights (only 1 or 2 shooters, several centaurs, and so on, some seers which rewarded u with small army, and so on, was cool..)

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted April 04, 2004 04:14 PM

Keep This Thread Alive

This is an excellent thread!Angelito, this is a great thread. You did some excellent 'leg-work' on the research for the calculations.Wub seems to be a perfectionist(which I think is a great contribution).Let's not let this thread die because I think this particular thread has some fantastic incite for future Heroes games.Fanatastic job Angelito.The Qp was definately well earned.

This thread could really benefit from a post from ThE_HyDrA(Altar Moderator).I'd like to add some in-depth comments as well but I usually like to wait and see what the local einsteins think first.

Once again, good job Angelito
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pandora
pandora


Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
posted April 04, 2004 04:30 PM

12 smilies!!! Consis - a smiley is an emoticon not a form of punctuation  /toss



very nice thread, btw  I'd contribute something more if i wasn't still half asleep hehe
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted April 04, 2004 10:42 PM

....well as ive played too much heroes i dont get the ironic meant part from consis , so i may give some more maybe usefull information.

Some years before (about 3 or 4 who cares) the programmer Gus Smedstad mentioned, that all secondary skill are already given to all heroes with the amount of "1", as zero wouldnt work.

Well i dunno exactly what "1" means. For example if expert archery shooters will do 50% more damage. Without the archery skill ull do "1" more damage, dunno if this means 1% or 1 promille. So some people say that if uve archery arts without the skill they wont work. But thats not true. If it says it will increase your archery skill by 5%, it will increase this "1" by 5%. This wont influence of course the normal 3-4 weeks fight, but maybe u can feel the difference in huge fights.

For example if u play without offense, u still play with this "1" (1%?) more damage given by the offense skill. This may explains the glitch u two peeps are talking about.

So as im not really a tester, maybe some of u peeps may test, archery arts without archery skill with a huge amount of creatures .

Good luck with that...

Xarfax1
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 06, 2004 04:31 AM

As i can see up to now, it seems that i found some "fans" for my "How does the...skill work exactly" series.

As it also seems very helpful for some of u, i will continue this series soon.

Next topic will be:........(let me surprise you.. hehehe)

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Frick
Frick


Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
posted April 06, 2004 01:06 PM

I live in breathless anticipation for that day.

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Wizard
Wizard


Hired Hero
Trying to defend a castle
posted April 14, 2004 08:57 AM

Something to think about:

Probably the earth spell "Shield" is cumulative with armorer because a specialist expert armorer with expert shield seem to take almost no damage at all. Those troops are very hard to kill. That's why the armorers are my fav heroes (and may be the logistics ones for larger maps too).
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Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 15, 2004 03:59 AM

Quote:
..... This wont influence of course the normal 3-4 weeks fight, but maybe u can feel the difference in huge fights.
.........
So as im not really a tester, maybe some of u peeps may test, archery arts without archery skill with a huge amount of creatures .

Good luck with that...

Xarfax1


Hello Xarfax,

i´ve tested your theory and i have to say, that i´m sorry not to be able to underpin it..

I tested it with a hero who doesn´t have archery as skill, gave him 97.993 Titans () (+ golden bow) and made a fight against another hero with 9999 hydras.
I casted bless on first round and titans made a damage of 7.471.966

Next try i gave this hero the 3 artifacts which raise the archery skill in summary up to 30% (bow, bowstring, feathers) and made the same fight again.
Titans did exact the same damage...

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted June 12, 2004 09:57 PM

Well, as no one seems to have given the correct way of damage calculation here, I think I should clarify some things.

First, there is a minimum and maximum damage of creature atacks. This is calculated and applied before the skills would work and is not subject to rounding down.

Minimum damage is 30% of normal damage (for example, this is 15 for an archangel or 300-420 for a stack of 100 dendroid guards). Thus, after being up by 28 points, all additional defense points are wasted.

Maximum damage is 400% of normal damage (for example, 200 for an archangel). So, being up by more than 60 attack points is a waste.

Second, damage is calculated as follows. If the attacker's skill is higher, each point means 5% additional damage. If the defender's skill is higher, each point means 2.5% damage reduction.

Now the game takes your normal damage (1000-1500 damage for your stack of 500 centaur captains) and applies this reduction (or bonus). In our example, it attacks a stack of 10 archangels (well, not a really good idea anyways). So 1000-1500 is multiplied by 0.4 (60% damage reduction, since 6-30=-24), then rounded down. Now it works funny here, since in heroes 3, rounding down means the largest integer below your number. Here your 400-600 damage is rounded down to 399-599.

After doing this, offense bonus is applied. For instance, expert offense means you get a 30% damage bonus, but it can't be bigger than 30% of your normal damage. So in our last example, our captains do 519-779 damage (30% bonus, their damage goes up from 40% to 52%). In the other way round, the archangels would do 1325 damage instead of 1175 (it goes up to 265% from 235%, now it is only a 12.8% bonus).

After all this stuff, your damage is simply reduced according to your armorer percentage. Of course, in the end, it is rounded down...

So your damage output can be as high as 430% (or 460% for example with a level 20 Crag Hack), and the damage you receive can be as low as 25.5% (or even 21% with a level 20 Tazar).

So, the interesting things:

- offense is not the same below and above 100% (normal damage)
- minimum and maximum (possible) damage is applied before skills
- damage is rounded down in the end according to heroes, not to maths
- armorer does NOT reduce damage by an additional point

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justdoing
justdoing


Adventuring Hero
#2
posted October 08, 2004 12:14 AM

hey i never came here b4 so i never saw this USEFUL thread at all!!! why didn't you post it in the toh forum(FID=2)?

ok now the real business.

i did some testing as well.

cavaliers/champions.

everybody knows that cavaliers have a very special thing, they get 5% more damage for every step they make b4 their strike.

and after i tested i found the following truth:

1, pikemen/Halberdiers are inmune to this specialty.

2, when the computer estimates the damage, it's sometimes wrong(when you made more steps than the shortest space path).

computer simply do a subtraction between the destination and starting coordinates, but when you go around obstacles you DO get the extra damage and therefore it is greater than what the computer has estimated.

and the definition for one step shall be: the number of hexagons the front body passes.

there i don't like testing but i like keeping threads like this alive

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