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JollyJoker
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posted May 29, 2025 06:05 PM |
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Misunderstanding. I thought you meant me. I'm the impatient one.
blizzard said:
These were the actual analogies you used here in the OSM to describe Donald and Kamala, as if it were a holy war of good vs evil.
It was - and evil won. I mean, don't you STILL see it? Trump abuses his office to make money. Unashamedly. He completely ignores Congress and "decrees". He's pardoning real criminals. And so on and so forth.
And you STILL just don't get it. It IS that simple. It It's about emotions, not brains, about dreams and hopes and wishes - and manipulation. Think RELIGION. Works as long as there are humans. And not via brains. On a certain level humans are not rational. And that's the weakness that can be abused and exploited.
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blizzard
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posted May 29, 2025 09:31 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 05:43, 30 May 2025.
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Explains a lot.
No. It's not good vs evil. Not in any strict sense. It's not even good vs evil with Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine, good? Ehhhhh.... not exactly.
It's politics.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 29, 2025 10:44 PM |
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USA and Israel are alone, if the world says so.. USA and Israel are Ukraine II..
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JollyJoker
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posted May 29, 2025 11:16 PM |
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blizzard said:
Explains a lot.
No. It's not good vs evil. Not in any strict sense. It's not even good vs evil with Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine, good? Ehhhhh.... not excactly.
It's politics.
Evil is too good in propaganda. It has anchored the idea in the collective human mind, that "good" is the same as "generally, always and totally good no matter the circumstances". But it's just "good". Even "God" - good missing an "o" - wasn't that. After all he had a couple of bad habits, hadn't he?
The "good" side is the side that TRIES to be. Trying to be good means, thinking of and about OTHERS. Not just about oneself. Russia isn't trying. Trump isn't trying. Trump is a narcissistic megalomaniac. The worst kind of person for such an office.
So, yes, it WAS good vs. evil - and evil won.
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blizzard
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posted May 30, 2025 02:49 AM |
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Edited by blizzard at 05:50, 30 May 2025.
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That's a pretty solid working definition to use for good and evil.
But it doesnt really fit so well with what we are talking about. Trump and Putin (and Xi too; him and his wife really aren't bad people to sit down and have a beer with) are all extremely invested in helping other people, and not just people within their inner circle. So were people like Reagan, Gorbachev, and Thatcher. None of those three were evil in the way you are describing it, even if, say, Reagan and Gorbachev were obvious geopolitical rivals. They both obviously thought about OTHERS and acted upon it.
Now, it might not always be a very universal concern. I.e. Trump cares about America, Putin cares about Russia, etc. That's inadequate because in the 21st century, concern MUST be universal, as in, the literal future of the human species depends on it. But, the concern is definitely still there.
"Trump is a rapist" doesnt really answer it either, because people who do terrible things dont just instantly lose their humanity or their conscience. Rape is definitionally a radically selfish act (and the act of rape is usually more about power than it is about sex), but rapists in prisons generally arent comic book villains.
Which is why it is generally easier to speak of it as "politics". Because countries have competing interests based on their history and their circumstances, and then within countries there are competing factions, and then there are competing factions within the factions, and you can keep on going right down to the individual person. But within all that conflict, there can be plenty of good people fighting each other, evil people fighting each other, and so on.
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Salamandre
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posted May 30, 2025 09:33 AM |
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Politics, life and "morale" are compatible only if you rank responsibility above semantics about what is good or evil. Are you a father with your family starving while you keep donating money to some organizations, how you define that, good or evil ? None, just irresponsible, lunatic, immature. For sure those where you give money see you as good, but what about yours, those you are directly responsible of, who are starving while you play the seek attention card?
It is up to individuals to care about "the world" and contribute from their personal excess wealth, if they desire. Not to politicians, elected to care about a particular population, the criteria being citizenship, and which they wowed to protect, improve well-being, access to housing, low cost food, lower taxes, make spending cuts where not necessary, etc. Sure, if improving a particular relation abroad can serve this goal, go and invest for it.
But what they did with Russia was exactly the opposite, they didn't care about their duty, they went berserk on Russia which we needed badly, not giving a single chance to dialog - they had 8 years for that ; in the end our living costs went up like crazy, our debt and taxes too, our relations with the world around our bubble degraded, while there is no strategy to be seen in which any of the problems created, by them alone, can be solved.
So your good and evil fantasy definition is an elitist perspective where working class people, the ones who pay for all others, the core of the societal cohesion, are an insignificant parameter you can spit on, handle like garbage and keep it uninformed through constant propaganda and lies. That makes your view and attitude, as I said, not evil or good, but irresponsible, lunatic, immature, and the catastrophic inner popularity of the European leaders who made all this possible, prove it so far.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 30, 2025 09:41 AM |
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Trump DOESN'T care about America. Just as Putin DOESN'T care about Russia. Because "America" and "Russia" are just names. It's about the people who live in it. So it's not about "America" or "Russia" it's about "Americans" and "Russians". As a minimum (since, yes, we live in times where all people are affected by doings of these two office holders). And Trump doesn't even care about Americans. Nothing he does is in any way good for them - or the world. Trump is only about HIMSELF. HE is doing this, HE is doing that, HE decrees, HIS will be done, HE wants this or that, Greenland, Canada, lower interest rates, courts not ruling against HIM, press reporting favorably of HIM, HE comes right after God, and God isn't there.
Putin, on the other hand, obviously doesn't care about Russians: he kills them. By the THOUSANDS. And Ukrainians as well.
There interest is NOT serving the people. It's more like in earlier times, when there were kings and emperors.
No one said, Gorbachev. Reagan and Thatcher were evil in this sense. They were preetty obviously trying very hard.
You might say it this way: the OFFICE has an agenda (abstractly): people take a vow of office when they begin. There are a lot of implications with that. For example, (and this is just a general example, not a concrete one), the implication of the president's right to pardon people is, that if a business partner of the president has been jailed fair and square because of fraud, the president shouldn't pardon them because they are business partners - or because upon pardoning said business partner will pay him a seven-digit figure. That would be called corruption.
The PERSONAL agenda every coming office holder will have (like, for example, I want to finally get universal healthcare done) must align with the agenda of the office. There mustn't be a conflict between those two, and if there is, the PERSONAL agenda must give in.
That's it. It's obvious that Trump isn't serving the office, but using the office to serve him.
And that's already it. That's enough. There is no excuse.
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Salamandre
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posted May 30, 2025 09:58 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
"America" and "Russia" are just names. It's about the people who live in it. So it's not about "America" or "Russia" it's about "Americans" and "Russians".
Exactly. And the Americans elected Trump by a lot, then he did what he said he will do, nothing more nothing less. And the Russians support Putin by a lot.
So it bows at what I've said, you have an elitist view where you don't care or understand what the people wants, when it doesn't match what you want. It is your problem.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 30, 2025 10:01 AM |
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A new Trumler and Putler, so people wanted..
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 30, 2025 10:20 AM |
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Salamandre said:
you have an elitist view where you don't care or understand what the people wants, when it doesn't match what you want.
That's why you will never catch me posing as a democrat.
Yeah! I know better.
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blizzard
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posted May 30, 2025 02:12 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 14:31, 30 May 2025.
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I'm not really following you JJ.
Reagan and Gorbachev were heads of state while thousands of people were killed under their watch in either wars or proxy wars. They both pushed their own agendas, because that is exactly what a politician does and what they are suppose to do. That's the whole point of being a political leader. In Reagan's case, sponsoring guerillas in Nicaragua was viewed as a beneficial thing. He thought it was a good and helpful thing to do.
And Gorbachez's reforms failed spectacularly. He had the gumption to accept the result and dissolved the USSR, but still, lots and lots of bad consequences there.
The problem is, things rarely go according to plan, and different people have different ideas on what is or isnt going to work and be beneficial.
I already agree with you that Trump has a deeply troubled legal past that he wants to avoid, but if he is totally dedicated to himself and himself alone, then he has a strange way of showing it.
And Trump has less of a filter than most any other politician on Earth. Like, he openly stated that he loves to win. Yeah. As opposed to all of the other people out there who dont love to win... right.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 30, 2025 02:27 PM |
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And that "strange way to show it" is? Because I find it pretty straightforward.
Mind you, this is not about giving the ok to some black ops thing to support or eliminate a government, party or whatever, deemed necessary by any amount of Secret Service agencies. Whenever something like that is done, it's not for personal reasons (or if it WAS, hen it would fit here). Instead - look at Trump's Harvard fixation. It's obviously something personal. Abuse of office for personal vendettas. And that's not the only example.
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blizzard
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posted May 30, 2025 02:35 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 14:38, 30 May 2025.
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Because he considers many elite to be the enemy of the common worker.
Sound familiar?
It's a false dichotomy of course, repeated many times in many places. The US is in one of those phases right now.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 30, 2025 04:01 PM |
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Nonsense. Harvard isn't the only "elite" uni. Trump considers HIMSELF elite, the best of the best - but not only wasn't HE on an elite uni, but Harvard has rejected his son as well. It' personal.
It's personal with Biden. It's personal with CBS as well (lawsuit: CBS covered Harris more than him - of course a no-go and worth a 10 billion lawsuit; which he files as president(!)). It's personal with Putin (his good friend, who isn't SUCH a good friend anymore now, that he seems to be playing for time, not giving Trump the satisfaction to proclaim to the world, "Who made the Ukraine deal? ME! The one and only. Donald I., the greatest of all time.
It's all just about HIM.
Donald Trump doesn't care about the common worker - or anyone else except himself.
And you didn't answer to "the strange way to show it".
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blizzard
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posted May 30, 2025 05:51 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 20:04, 30 May 2025.
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When I say "strange way to show it" I mean that he has been plunged into mass conflict as well as personal danger to himself since the moment he ran for president as a serious contender, which has since extended to his entire family.
I'm not telling you that he doesn't have a strong egotistical/drama king streak in him, but short of being able to read his mind, I am very much convinced that he is a crusader with deep convictions about what he is doing. He is 100% serious about "making America great again." It is not as if being POTUS grants you access to a vast fortune, privacy, or even personal safety. Far from it. How many professions do you know where there is about a 1 in 7 chance of being shot and possibly killed? Well guess what: president of the United States is one of them, based on the 45 who have served so far. More than a few presidents and other cultural icons have taken a bullet.
And Putin is likewise a crusader with a cause. It's not sufficient to simply say "greasy megalomaniac" even if he is (unofficially) the wealthiest man in the world by a vast margin.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 30, 2025 11:45 PM |
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Hitler was a crusader as well. Since when is "crusader" something good?
And, again, I don't see Trump crusading for anyone than himself and his own greatness. And as we have established, MAGA is propaganda. Even if it was a real goal (which is bollocks because America IS or HAS BEEN great), it's the HOW. Alienating every other country except Israel and Russia won't America make great again.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 31, 2025 01:06 PM |
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Crusaders are overzealous, that’s why reasonable people dont usually dont think of them as good, but from their own perspective they are not just good, they serve the ultimate good. Hitler was under the impression that he was cleansing humanity from disease and weakness, his goal was to improve the species itself!
That being said, I dont think Trump or Putin are crusaders. Trump is a populist, pragmatic, narssisistic man. He was at the right place at the right time and he knows how to surf that wave. That’s all. Putin, on the other hand, can be seen a little more genuinely idealist in the sense that he really seems to care about making Russia “great again.” But I think rather than a crusader, he sees himself as a though, hardened man who is doing what has to be done in a defensive sense. I’m pretty sure behind closed doors, when talking to his entourage, he says things like “I didnt want this Dimitri, you know I tried to reason with the West for years” and so on… How accurate is this self-perception is another matter, but he is not in frenzy mode.
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blizzard
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posted May 31, 2025 02:27 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 16:56, 31 May 2025.
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JollyJoker said:
Hitler was a crusader as well. Since when is "crusader" something good?
And, again, I don't see Trump crusading for anyone than himself and his own greatness. And as we have established, MAGA is propaganda. Even if it was a real goal (which is bollocks because America IS or HAS BEEN great), it's the HOW. Alienating every other country except Israel and Russia won't America make great again.
Hitler voluntarily let his country burn to the ground, metaphorically and physically. He was also a war fanatic whereas Trump has pretty consistently been anti-war. The whole thing with Stalingrad was just Hitler's ego wanting to take STALINgrad. He could have just hung back and saved like a billion troops from dying. The entire German high command knew it was dumb, but if they went against Hitler they'd be executed and if Germany lost entirely they'd be executed.
The basis of MAGA (from the horse's mouth):
- The world has been exploiting America for years and years. The tariffs are a way for the government to collect revenue and bring manufacturing back to America.
- Illegal immigrants are destroying America. They bring in drugs, rape women, eat pets, and create a housing crisis.
- The federal government has been taken over by Democrats, who are the enemy within. It wastes heaps of money on frivolous or toxic things. It must be purged.
So, in Trump's mind, he is fighting for the American people and for the American worker/family. If he was born in Russia in the late 19th century, he probably would have been a communist revolutionary (keeping tons of wealth to himself, of course). His whole groove has been to fight against the evil and corrupt establishment. He even likes to rename things the way that the communists did. And he loves the color red. Coincidence?
Putin:
- Russia has been disrespected and threatened by NATO expansion for years. The West doesn't listen. They're stuck in an echo chamber. Russia is the voice of reason.
- Inside critics of the administration are a threat to national security. They must be censored/punished for the good of Russia (i.e. freedom of expression is largely prohibited and the Russian constitution is pointless). Putin is the voice of reason.
- The Ukrainian government has been corrupted to the core by Western interlopers and is abusing peaceful and hardworking Russians. It must be fixed with force from the outside. Russia is the voice of reason.
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Salamandre
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posted May 31, 2025 03:22 PM |
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Quite accurate, imo 
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JollyJoker
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posted May 31, 2025 04:27 PM |
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Why are you repeating Trump's and Putins nonsense propaganda, but not Hitler's, if you feel obliged to compare them?
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This thread is pages long: 
