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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 03, 2001 05:53 AM |
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I dunno............. ???????
Well, Jex I give up man... Sorry you seem to taking things much more seriously personal no matter how I respond. I really prefer not to get into a pissing contest over issues like this but it seems we are fast approaching that if not dribbling already. I also think you misjudge my sincerity. What can I do and say at that point in realtion to you?
Just email me with what statements are offensive to you and I will remove or correct them if that is what you are after. It sure isn't worth get you worked up in my opinion. I feel like you don't want me to respond to anything you say, but instead just let you thrash about on my thoughts and then accuse me of flaming you when I respond with my thoughts on a matter.
I don't feel like I was implying things you are indicating I did. My comments were to be considered for all who read here and not just in regard to what you were talking about in particular or as a personal response to you at all times even though I use the word "you" in different manners.
{deletion .... never mind}
I guess you didn't accept any apologies I was offering nor cast any mercy towards me if I stated something not in accord with your opinion. Again, email me or post it here whichever you like.
-dEth8
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 03, 2001 07:23 AM |
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Dude...............
Dude.......I am dumbfounded. Please address the issue plainly and what it is that you expect from me that might fix that which has been the offending point or points.
If you think I considered you a point grubber after all that I have said and directly told you, then explain what you think would be the correct way for me to state things? I didn't consider you to be "in that catagorie" as I in a previous post.....
Infact just write the post for me and I will sign it if I agree. Maybe modify it a bit so that it is actually me writing. Then post it.
That should settle the matter. If after this offer you still have a problem with what I say then it will just have to remain so and you can continue with whatever you feel the need. I cannot think of any other consolation that I can do to get things straight and right any wrong or damage you consider to be done to you.
At least offer some forms of correction if there are other things you expect.
I grow weary, and if you would rather fight as I am starting to feel then I don't mind doing that through email. To post it here is not proper though, but whatever...I leave it to you.
Hope to see some movement toward resolution, I did feel I knew you better though we had never spoken. Guess I made some mistakes.
-dEth8
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yawacko
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 03, 2001 02:34 PM |
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Reading this link has really made me somewhat angry. I wonder if some of you people are really ignorant to the game of heroes or are just pretending.The first problem I have with hit and run is this, heroes is quite a long game usually taking anywhere from 3 to 8 hours. To spend say 5 hours playing a game only to never have a fight makes the game very unenjoyable and not the way the game was designed to be played. It is a tactic that will win a few games if you are in it for the wins but to think that you have played a game that is enjoyable for both players when you make someone invest 5 hours only to be hit and run them you are not considering the feelings of your opponent. Now as for stoping hit and run, if someone knows what they are doing the only way to stop them is with shackles. If i am fortress, Stronghold or Tower speed arts make 0 difference.
Give me castle and a rich open map to your Tower, Fortress or stronghold with no shackles on map and i will win every time. I will not sit in my castle and wait for you to approach, I will use every bit of resource to get archangels and run right at your town. This will likely occur week 2, and one possible defence is taken away in you rushing at my town with full force since those 3 towns will not be able to take a castle in week 2(poor seiging towns). As i run at your side of the map(moving very well i might add with 1 archagnel on) you must send some troops to deal with this threat and when you do I will simply kill the troops you send without losing any of my own and only sacraficing 5000 gold for doing so. The same day I surrender i will buy my hero back and start the process all over again with you having no defence to this or very little anyway.
The one possible defence to this is to make 7 stacks of weak creatures and decent power to cast spells against my angel while only losing 2 or 3 low level creatures, however this defence only works if i do not have antimagic and your spell power is high enough, so in my opinion not a reliable defence. For this strategy to be effective I dont need implode and 20 power i would be more than happy with lightning and 10 power doing 300 damage per hit, doing 300 damage for 10 hits is worth the 50k in gold since you have no army and although i have little gold i still have an army developing in my town. Basicly what i am saying is without shackles it cannot be beat if done correctly on an open map without using any "skill" at all.
Having said all that, it was not the point of my post... my point is this, I play homm3 becuase i enjoy the game and like to play with people who feel the same way about the game as I do. All of you people who say hit and run is great tactic i have to ask a question of you.
Do you think anyone would enjoy spending 5 hours playin a game of heroes to lose and never meet your opponent face to face? After all it is a game 
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 12:37 AM |
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Last Post on this thread I promise
Hmmmm no one has deleted this thread yet  So I will delete all my comments that were directed for Deth and some that werent. (I would appriecate the same respect from you)... Thats about all except yawacko is exactly right on this issue. It doesnt matter what is in the game, it is about enjoyment plain and simple.
Jex
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 04, 2001 01:14 AM |
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Hot Topic....
What on earth do you do to stop a hit and run player? There are many, many answers to that one, I think, most of which have already been covered by you guys, but I don't think it should be labelled as cheating. Some people like the adage 'win at all costs', which in my opinion is not exactly fair, but that's where the depth of play really comes into it. You have to take the good with the bad, and in Heroes, there are plenty of people who will fully exploit a tactic to their advantage, which is sadly to your detriment and it just tells us which players are good, neutral and evil. I had a player once who tried hit and run on me and it sucked. I had NO reply to it, until I found a ring of speed. Then I realized that one of my scouts was carrying around another ring of speed, which gave my blacks a rating of 19. So was it my turn? Sure as hell was, and I 'did unto him as he did unto me' LOL. It felt really good playing someone at their own game, (even though I lost in the end!), but the point of the matter is, maybe you 'experts' should prime yourself for such players. The secret of winning, is in flexibility, how quickly you can adjust your strategy to the strategy of others. Hell, can't a Colonel defeat a plebe who uses hit&run? What sort of statement is THAT?? Don't throw a fit, go out there and kick some frickin' arse!
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MatronBaenre
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 03:03 AM |
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Finnaly
I have been following this chat for some time and finally somebody has the oppinion that I have. Yawaco I thank you. This is amazing. I have been playing this game for a long time and I always hate people that hit and run. I hate the computer for doing it, I hate people for doing it. It is too anoying and pathetic. What kind of player are you whaen the only thing you do is hit and run? I mean it is realy cowardly and all you do is waste time! I can't realy consider it cheating, but it is a pathetic way of playing!
That is all i have to say.
Sir Dunco
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plzno
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2001 04:24 AM |
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H/R is not fun. that's correct conclusion
Playing game is for fun to me.
H/R is not fun, even thou I've never lost yet by
hit and run tactics.. (Every time my enemy tried to hit and run me.. I always had some Defence way to it.. but.. even my victory.. I don't like this way of game ending.. that's not enjoyable.)
If my enemy is willing to hit and run me and I happen to have Shackles or Faster unit or speed arti
..etc.. , I always notice him I have shackles. etc..
(and.. sometimes.. they don't trust me.. and come cross and hit me.. and OOOPS!!)
Why I always warned to them??
CUZ. I really don't want that kind of victory rather than my defeat.
I can have only 1 or 2 multiple game in a week.
I wish this game get more enjoyable...at least better than hit and run ending.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 06, 2001 12:59 PM |
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I understand you Jex when saying that you don't want to play 5 hours a game for beeing humiliated by a hit and run. But I will give you an example who hapenned to me, about another controversial problem, the "no combine armies" in allied game. Most of you says it's an unfair tactic. I was playing allied to Andi vs Pandora/JB. No rules before starting...Map hadn't relics or markets. Pandora gets castle and Alamar, then "lion shield courage" in water day 3. She messages me" this game will not be big deal".So she knew that with her big advantage we will not be able to succed.So....game was done day3!!!Why to continue? Alamar having 16 levels more than us, I was tower(!) and crap main.But we continued. I broke into the middle first, I asked to andi to give me his red dragons and manticores and I killed Alamar badly with armies combined. Is this unfair as she started to cry?! or the only strategy to succed if game luck turns really bad from the beginning?Indeed, the game wasn't big deal.
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Era II mods and utilities
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YouSmell
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2001 06:19 PM |
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HellOoOo everyone, how its going?
When is Heroes4 coming out and how much would it cost? $US
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Tekken Tag
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 07, 2001 09:07 AM |
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NAA NAA NUH BOO BOO
Well one thing is for sure.
The people that say no rules seem to be making factual and non-emotional statements where as the ones who do not like hit and run use a lot of angry words like pathetic, cheat, cheap and coward.
Does that say something about the character of a player who tries to tailor the environment to cover up his weaknesses?
BTW great post Shae. You were getting blasted and looked around and found a solution. There always is one and it sounds like finding it and returning the favor brought the game to a whole new satisfaction level.
I was playing someone a while back and we were discussing the way the non hit and run people were being so rude so I thought I would see if I could make him angry at me by hitting and running him. It really wasn't to my advantage much but it was fun to see if he would change his tune after it was him having it done to him.
Finally he said frustratingly "I can't stop this!!" and i said "The answer is all around you". And it was. I could see how he could counter my tactic but he couldn't see it. After several hits on him guess what? He found the defense and shocked me by killing my caster.
I was happy for him because he had evolved as a player. And he would have never haven that chance to evolve if a rule had been made to stop something that is able to be stopped.
I respect people's choice and rights to add rules to THEIR OWN GAMES. Now show some common human respect for those of us who like to play our way and stop calling us childish names.
-Mocara
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3lionshield
Hired Hero
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posted April 08, 2001 04:00 AM |
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Failed Hit and Runs
heya I just read this thread for about 45 mins and as someone who supports using every and any possible option in the game I feel it would do a little good to point out my own(and some others) failures while trying to hit and run.
1. Money Problems. My first attempt at a hit and run was a disaster. This guy parked his hero maybe 4 tiles away from my castle and I meteored the dude 2 times and guess what on my 3rd time I ran out of cash. So he promptly killed me and attacked my troops that had no leader.
2. I came with black drags and Armageddon(btw not in a clan). Planning not to really run just to fry the dude. Well he was rampart and he had the black orb. So i fried myself while he survived thanks to some centaurs standing next to the unicorns
3. Speed arts. Ghost drags with a higher speed than gold drags... yes it happens and no there is nothing you can do if he can haste all his creatures to be faster than you and use might.
4. Hit and running from a tavern. I have lost my town and I have already lost the major battle I am where most games end but I am now hit and running on a map with 2 taverns. My problem is that I don't have anything strong enough to fight him with. Its not that I didn't buy troops its that he killed them so I repeatedly am leaving the hero in the tavern untill the next day so to avoid him being caught-btw scouts with a whole army are stronger than me at this point. So after a few days of this the dude has place his heroes in positions so that I cannot get to taverns and my hero simply goes away with the new week- he sat there for 3 days let me steal a town but I had no heroes of substance and I lost.
5. Shackles: this has only happened to me 1 time and it is a gross oversight by 3do to allow an art as powerful as shackles in the game ... j/k
6. Resistance: when you have only enough money to hit and run 1 time and your opponet get a resistance-it takes the wind out of your sails and usually sinks ya.
7. I am preparing to hit and run and as I am what i thought was out his reach he nicely comes over and kills me and my 1 archangel. we both had archies i thought I would be attacking.
Now thats 7 instances that stand out in my mind of when I failed trying to hit and run.
What did I learn from this-its a risky tactic that is to be used as a last resort.
btw. I fully support players not playing me when they don't want to be subjected to unorthodox fighting I would rather have a good game with someone who can improvise instead of fighting the same big battles every game.
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3lionshield
Hired Hero
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posted April 08, 2001 04:06 AM |
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The heroes matrix
Some heroes players have created a virtual world for themselves where they limit the capacities of their mind and the laws of erathia. These people need to be set free of their own willful captivity. They are captive to a battle style much like the Britons of old fighting in straight lines on a battlefield.
My point is this is a war game treat it as such. I am sure that the British complained the first time they encountered guerrila warfare. But guess what they didn't just keep on complaining they changed... war changed, talk about a hit and run...I think heroes 4 should have Nuclear bombs and homing missiles.
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Maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2001 06:56 AM |
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Yes this is what we needed...
some real life examples of the shortcomings on hit and run
if only some people knew how beatable it is. Just like geddon (only so much more) and it leaves you with no other options if it fails.
Rememeber that nasty exchange on Boomerang 3lion? there was some nice H&R there with lv 5-6 heroes and w 2 troops 
And people don't listen to him about not playing him, do the opposite. His unorthodox tactics are so much fun of course sometimes he will kill you with them
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"What is life? Work followed by television."
"1985" Anthony Burgess
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Zamolxes
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 08, 2001 07:28 AM |
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Just want now to say here that I am really sorry ZUD for the Hit&Run I did with you in our last game.Sorry didnt knew U play by this rule all the time!:s( if I discuss rules before the game with the player I respect them)
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Zamo™
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted April 08, 2001 08:50 AM |
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to salamadre....
what the heck was that post about? i was crying? i messaged to you that 'this game was no big deal' ?
i guess there's 2 pandora's running around, cuz i know i played a game similar to what u described but....
as i recall the game was for allied conquest tourney, in which the rules were no combine - so i was shocked at you having combined troops - and this is what i thought unfair.
strangely tho, i remember talking afterwards with you about the game and it seemed to me that we had not made the rules clear to you - so it was all over with no hard feelings..in fact, i believe we were going to ally after that... but i guess it must have been this other pandora that was crying etc.. also u make such a big deal that i had jeddite, and i remember that in that game i wasn't offered earth magic till almost the end of second week - jeddite with no earth isn't such a big deal
but i guess u remember things as you choose to, kinda sad i think
pandora
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
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posted April 09, 2001 10:41 AM |
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hit and run
I always try to play without rules but if my opponent wants some rules i can agree.
I played little more than 60 ToH games and wasnt defeat by hit and run and also hit and run never helped me to win but 1 time i win vs opponent that used hit and run (we both played conflux on dw and he had cape of velocity sword of judgement as quest reward and magic hero and i had might hero ,helm of enlightment as quest reward and sword of judgement,lions shield of courage,recanters cloak and golden bow from utopia and so hit and run was the only way to continue game and try to win for him and I think i have no rights to complain that he use "cheap tactics" and i didnt it.)
If u play with all random anyone have the same chances to have good spells,good artefacts and fastest creature and if one take good artefacts from utopia and other find only sack of gold and sea captains hut as relics why shouldnt he use hit and run to win?
I think those who supposed that to find better artefacts and win because of it is the use of great skill of playing heroes3 and to have the fastest creature and to win because of it is cheap trick are wrong.It is the same things.
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dargon
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2001 11:31 AM |
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Well if Zud is going to put in his 2 cents then I figure I can put in my 1 cent
I hate having hit and run used against me....and in the infamous words of Yawacko..."so there" (Well maybe it was Pandora who said that first...hmmm...well I guess not since we all know that Pandora doesn't really exist and it is only Yawacko incognito in female drag...lol...just kidding...no offense haha)
Well now since I resolved this argument with my amazing and quite impressive logic we can all move on
PS Yawacko and Pandora are great people and all comments made above were only in jest
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3lionshield
Hired Hero
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posted April 18, 2001 07:53 PM |
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All this talk about the fastest creature?
Hit and running can work whether or not you have the fastest creature so whining about 'you lose the game because other guy has fastest creature' is not valid reason. The most effective hit and runs that were against me where actually used with 7 stacks of a medium fast creature- like dragon flies master genies and obsidian gargolyes..btw even with mass haste its still really hard to kill all 7 stacks before its his turn.
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Prometheus
Adventuring Hero
Knight of the Oracle
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posted April 19, 2001 03:35 AM |
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Total-Tacticals vs. Battlefield Junkies
Sorry if my English is bad but I'm from the United States.
I'm glad people have different opinions on this issue because how boring if we all agreed. We called this "multiple surrender" in Heroes II. I see here it has taken on a new name that lends a negative connotation at the outset.
I caution those on either side of the issue to consider your opponent's view and feelings.
If you are a player who finds an aspect of the game (like this one) very unappealing ( I can see where some people might be made physcially ill by this tactic) make sure you tell the person ahead of time. This person may play 30 people before you who all love the tactic and not know how to shift gears and then they will feel bad because you will be angry when they use it. So cetainly rule 1 is speak up early about what you dont like.
Conversely if your opponent does speak up and this method is part of your repertoire, respect your opponents view or if this is unpalatable because you fault their logic then dont play them. You may fault their logic but they dont enjoy the same things you do. The anti-hit/run people clearly get strong enjoyment from the battlefield and need clashing, ringing steel on steel to get their fix. I call them Battlefield Junkies. They live for the combat screen and why not? It is great. Those of us who favor the tactic clearly enjoy the strategic possibilities of the game more than some. We are the Total-Tactic people. We all share so much like for so much of the game however it is a terrible waste to spend energy causing bad feelings to "correct" our peers' ideas.
"Total-tactic" people tend to label the anti-tactic people as unenlightened or suffering from inexperience or being too lazy to invoke the defenses against all possibilities as the case may be. This is generally not their motivation i have come to know. They enjoy some tactics, just not all tactics. I would enjoy seeing the total-tactic people show more respect for those who oppose certain tactics.
It is incomprehensible to the battlefield junkies that you should desire to win with a smaller troop size and only speed, spells, and a tempo in your favor.
In the same light, anti-h&r people tend to label total-tactic people as cowards, cheats, dishonorable, disrespectful, or otherwise undeserving of any victory. I would enjoy seeing the anti-h&rpeople show respect for those who when you say no hit and run it is as incomprehensible as saying "no surrender when it is to your advantage to do so; die like a poor dumb peasant, resign the game. Quit. you are beaten." Although I comprehend not, I can and will respect the view and my opponent if they are similarly inclined to respect me and not brand me dishonorable because I appreciate a tactical maneuver.
So negotiate, love respect and forgive each other. Debate is ok but do not use words that carry bad emotions. Nothing is gained.
And now a riddle. Your reward for reading this lengthy post.
The answer is a question, the question is your life.
And so is the answer.
Everything you do affects the answer.
The answer is different for every person.
The answer is always made. The answer is always correct.
The question is always the same.
Nothing that you do can change the question.
The question is rarely spoken. The answer is never possible when the question is asked.
But what is the question?
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(Prometheus is a league commentator and Heroes veteran who is best known as the only player who has actually been dismissed by his own HEROES)
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Prometheus
Adventuring Hero
Knight of the Oracle
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posted April 19, 2001 04:04 AM |
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Completely unrelated to hit and run...
Shae's notion about flexibility being the key to victory...I was taken aback when I read that because I heard those same words long ago from a great player and friend who I respect infinitely.
::returns from flashback to a great game
Perfectly accurate.
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(Prometheus is a league commentator and Heroes veteran who is best known as the only player who has actually been dismissed by his own HEROES)
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This thread is pages long: 
