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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 31, 2001 03:38 PM |
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Ummm
I don't suppose my opinion matters all that much to you guys, seeing as I'm a nobody, but this thread has become a little negative and seems to be about 1 or 2 (maybe even three!) instances of short, easily won games where the person on the short end of the stick is complaining.
I'm sorry to say, but this sounds like the talk of newbies, and I didn't really expect this sort of thing from experienced ToH-ers.
*smile*
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 31, 2001 04:02 PM |
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It seems that in this thread..
It depends how many rounds you have played how you're treated.
I can say that this is the last post to this thread as this all talk is like couple of kids in the playground saying that one threw sand into his eyes.
Then one says why it shouldn't be like that way the other says that there is "no-rules" policy here. Then other one happens to make up some new rules and this way insults the other one. Then there's this nice unique toy that everybody can play with it couldn't be played wrongly as it can go broken.
-Why? asks one of the kids
-It's because it can be breaked.
-That's not really reason it's just because you guys wanna play your games and not because it can go broken...I'll show you how play with it...
Then later when the new toy is in the ground breaked into pieces...
The Kid that broke it says:
-I want a new one!
-Why you want the new one? You broke the old...
-So I could break it!...That's the only way I can feel my self satisfied...
-But we all others can't play with it then...
-Yes of course because you don't know to play with I just know how to play with it...
Question is do we really need a new toy or just some rules?
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 01, 2001 12:26 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Hmm...
Well, I have to agree with Shae about this deteriorating into complaints about the last game they lost or whatever. Maybe that is what H&R is really about? I don't think so myself, but perhaps others only think about the points.
As for Sha-Men- it was funny, but it's really a disguised knock against H&R since in your analogy the destroyer of all the fun is the H&R supposedly. Basically there are all sorts of arguements that can be made for H&R, but really only two arguements against it as far as I can see. First of all, it might take some fun out of the game for a few people and if it does that, then it's understandable why they don't want it. Secondly, it is perhaps the one strategy in H3 that you can never completely negate without joining it, sure you can reduce it alot first, but if one side commmits everything to it the only real way to stop it is if you do the same thing yourself. Most other strategies can be gone around or battled from your own preffered way of fighting, but H&R takes away the options in many ways.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted August 01, 2001 07:42 AM |
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Last post...
I said that the last post of mine was totally last but then I noticed that it can be understood wrongly.
This isn't really attack towards H&R but reasoning towards the fact that everything can be used as that being "the only way to play with it". There are many ways to play with a toy or game and it need adjustment from both sides to understand this. There are no needs for heavy rulemaking if the game is balanced well but surely there must be some rules because game is never balanced so well. Or maybe HoMM IV will be and H&R will raise as tactic highly appreciated which will both be liked by the "rulemakers" and "no-rulers" players.
What I wanted to say is that I possibly looking forward HoMM IV and even tournament play but I surely don't want to join in if it's colored with another H&R debate.
Someone will of course now say that if you can't take the fire don't play with matches, but maybe there is someone that understands the way how the game should be and not in the way it stands now. It can be played with whatever rules people want but this usually means that people start arguing about rules when the true "rulemakers" should be inside gamecompany designing and programming the game.
My experience is coming from only few multiplayer games that H&R was used but I can say that either did I lost or won I didn't truly enjoy it.
And I think enjoyment of the game is most important factor to any player. But still it means different things to different people and you cannot blame them from something which they really like...
And Ichon is very very right. There isn't really many arguments against H&R and that all talk about it being unfair is just talk. Those two reasons that you mention are above all and I see them as potential fun-game-killers as HoMM should be. It seems that people have different views whether HoMM is just have-fun-game or wargame. Maybe we should just relax and not take it too seriously. Of course in tournament play this is really hard because people relate heavily into their points to feel how good they are.
And about newbies...
Even newbie can have entirely reasoned opinion about the game and it's strategies if he has studied the game mechnanics etc. I have one friend that has played only few games with HoMM mainly because his bias is towards multiplayer games and after couple of games in the net he could entirely tell his opinion what was the superior tactic to all others. He won all games he played. He stopped playing the game and not wasting precious calltime in the net.
There's no need to say which tactic he was talking about...
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 01, 2001 07:54 AM |
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The problem with H&R is that you can't tell when someone did H&R really!
Let everybody put rule what is H&R and then we'll see..
I'm sure everybody will put different things. It's very fuzzy all this stuff around H&R.
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YouSmell
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 01, 2001 09:33 AM |
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Ummm
"I don't suppose my opinion matters all that much to you guys, seeing as I'm a nobody"
"I'm sorry to say, but this sounds like the talk of newbies, and I didn't really expect this sort of thing from experienced ToH-ers."
*smile*
Shae_Trielle <------You Are A Nobody And You Are Newbie.
And This Is Said By a Experienced Toh-er -----> YouSmell/Vu_
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 02, 2001 12:52 AM |
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Despite of Vuīs overwhelming ToH statistic, of course Shae is perfectly right to criticise the quality of these above posts.
Simple fact is: H&R is not the dominating strategy in Heroes3, in the large majority of games itīs not used in a systematic way. Itīs a strong tactical resource, but more defensive than offensive - attacking with H&R is very risky. And thereīs a large number of ways to defend against it or to work around it.
Maybe itīs just my view, but I think that the best, and from my experience most dangerous Heroes3 players are those who show themselves inventive and able to adapt to any bad or seemingly desperate situation and make the best of it. Those are not easily blasted off the board by H&R.
Of course we can follow those obscure morals and make rules, until those 100-times-DesertWar-repeater-colonels actually become good players, but that would reduce the tactical variety of the game and make it far more depending on luck than it is now.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted August 02, 2001 01:37 AM |
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VU!
I knew you loved me! LOL!
I was actually forced into a hit and run situation yesterday against a ToH Captain. We played a random medium and it turned out he attacked one of my scouts day one. The next day I attacked him with my main and after a few rounds, he retreated. He came at me again with a slightly bigger army and stopped almost a day's march from my castle. I hired two scouts with decent spellpower, gave them a few harpies each and build a level 2 guild. I hit and ran him twice and cast lightning bolt on him before retreating. He had no reply because he'd used all his spellpoints on my main and my scout the day before.
I felt pretty dirty about it, because I didn't have to go that route. I thought he'd disapprove of me immediately, but he didn't, and I found that a real relief. Mind you, I wasn't about to sit in my castle and wait for him to come to me, I was going to take him out before week2 which meant that I had to attack him and that gave him the chance to hit and run me. Being low on gold (for both of us), the stakes were pretty high, but in the end, it came out to a straight dogfight where I lost 90 percent of my main and ended up defeating him.
I found it was great to see that some people accepted hit and run for what it was and were quite prepared to play the game right back at me. I had an awful lot of fun yesterday and even if I had've lost, my smile wouldn't have been any less.
I find that it is a pity that a newbie can come along, learn hit and run, use it to win 8 or 9 games against other inexperienced players and then walk off thinking that they've mastered the whole game. A tactic like this can ultimately spoil the deeper aspects of the game and can make a Heroes3 experience pretty shallow. I'm glad that they're getting rid of it in HoMM4, but like everything, I'll bet that someone finds another easy way to win...
*smile*
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 02, 2001 05:20 AM |
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yes....
Actually I am not sure if you won or lost your last game Shae, but whatever- at least you had fun and realized some people see H&R as part of the game. Actually in that situation I can't even imagine hesitating. Not only would I strike with lightening as much as I could, once movement was gone, purchase the hero and guard your town with 2 heroes.
After all that though I can't believe you still came out against H&R!!!! You not only used it yourself, but had it used against you with no recriminations, and admitted you had alot of fun, but you hope they leave it out of H4? Are you crazy schizophrenic deluded confused? mispoke?
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted August 02, 2001 06:37 AM |
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Insult away why don't you?
Ichon, yesterday was a one off thing for me. I don't think if I had used hit and run in all of my games or even some of them, the opponent would not have been as accomodating as the Captain was yesterday.
What I'm saying is that I can play the game with or without Hit and Run but from what I see, it creates a huge rift between players and kinda tears things up a little. This for me, is a negative side-effect of Hit and Run, and I don't think that there's much changing of it. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the tactic, but it takes a blind person not to see what it has done, the arguments it has caused for Heroes players and the ToH community in general (even those who don't play toh). I'm not crazy, schitzophrenic or deluded and I'm pretty certain about not being mispoken on this. It may just be better and easier for all of us if there was no hit and run. Don't you think so?
*smile*
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 03, 2001 04:02 AM |
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I think you meant 'easier' for all of you, not me
Well, certainly many arguments start wth H&R I suppose, though I have only had two people ever object in the game, one was very high ranking opponent and really I thought his idea of H&R was insane(his scout and chain hero had 1 creature, I had dragon flies join so sent in scouts with 3 dragon flies each to kill all his chain hero)those early scout battles are almost all magic arrow and who has the fastest unit or who left town with only 6 slots full instead of all 7, etc...
Personally from my experience most disagreements I've ever had or heard about evolved from two things; firstly if 4th are included or now, because if I play a game with 4ths banned, I won't use them against the other player, but it's not fair in my view to totally ban purchasing them if I have a 4th in tavern and I need his armies in week 1 I will buy him. Also, I might not buy 4ths to use them directly, but I always try to build a scholar and take theri spells, that is just like the luck of what is in your mage guild, but with more effort and some people still object. Also if I buy Solmyr for instance and use him to take out some ranged in the early game his chain comes in handy- but usually people object to that, so I am forced to use him only as a scout without ever casting anything except magic bolt.
Secondly, diplomacy. When some people say no diplo, they can mean either, no diplo hero at start, no diplo skill on your hero you build(idiotic, choice between mystacism or diplo I take diplo)or simply they mean if creatures offer to join you even without diplo skill you must refuse... etc. Augh! No one knows what they are thinking even if they you both discuss it for 10 minutes before the game.
I don't know what captain you played, but I have noticed the higher in the ranks you go the more people are willing to play withour rules like no H&R- sure there are generals even that still like to ban it, but by and large the people clamoring for no H&R aren't the newbies. Just something to consider...
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 03, 2001 04:08 AM |
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grr...
Stupid small laptop keyboard makes me type bad and not notice all my errors, it should be- newbies ARE the ones clamoring for no H&R by and large...
By the way, I wasn't being directly insulting by guessing at your state of mind(confused, insane etc), it was phrased as a question after all, not a declaration. ;-)
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YouSmell
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 04, 2001 05:56 PM |
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Ichon, don't blame yourself for saying all that to Shae
about her confused mind. She is mentally retarded, conquering exageration territory, sarcastism domination anda messed up lil girl/boy. Have anyone try to listen a lil boy/girl age about 5-7 telling stories, their plot is like their introduction, their intro is like their conlusion and their conslusion end up being a introduction of another story. Well, everytime i read Shae's post, i felt the same way i felt when i was listening to my gf's lil nease telling her story she got told at kinder garden.
Oh..hey Shae, whats the CAPTAIN's Zone Nick or his Toh handle again, he seem to be a pretty cool fella to play with, i am interested to play with him. I hope you remember his nick or handle since its only been 1/2. Also you had FUN on that game so no doubt that game is something to remember of huh. One last thing, YES I LOVE YOU so i can't stand my baby debating with Ichon and others, so i preffer you telling stories to kids at kindergarden, you know the stories with big words and less sense, yeh kids like them.
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Chariotess
Hired Hero
Ancient Vampire
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posted August 06, 2001 12:13 PM |
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Ichons post here that says "bonus applied" is the one that should be underlined. Tactic takes every enjoyment from game that I love. It changes into some kind of wargame when I would like it to be fantasy game with some strategy and rpg elements. I think everybody knows what hit and run is when somebody uses it against you. It is when somebody attacks with quick forces you casts some spells and runs away. Then he repeats that with the hero he got from the tavern or he has more than one hero to do this already. I just hate this tactic but players who agree both to rules should follow them and then if players both want they can use what ever they want even cheating.
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Progress is inevitable
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted August 06, 2001 12:33 PM |
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Mentally retarded?
LOL you Vu!
Change that avatar of yours for a start! You look like I just bashed you silly with my ring hand! And who are you calling mentally retarded? Your whole post was about 1 sentence long, full of spelling errors, absolutely nonsensical and essentially the stuff of crap.
Conlusion and conslusion? Sacastism? What the hell is that? And wtf is a nease? LMAO! You mean Niece!!!!!!!!
Poor child! How many times do I have to teach you how to spell? Or shall I have to tell mum and dad that poor Vu is dyslexic and can't understand big words let alone spell them?
Go back to bed please. That eye is looking mighty black...
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted August 06, 2001 04:50 PM |
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Bweh
Hit & run whoop dee doo zzzz, if u dont like it state it, if u like it state it, if u dont care keep ur damn mouth shut. 
Figured i get a bit o action in the hit and run thread again  I have used it before if no rules applied and i totally avoid using it other games cus it has the potential to be cheap 1 archangel+1 tome of earth = dead opponent unless opponent has 1 gold+velocity cape+speed ring+ necklace + shackles = hit and run failure.
Either way who cares quit callin it cheap quit griping that its a valid tactic... be indifferent 
okay night night its too hot zzzzzzzz
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted August 06, 2001 04:58 PM |
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haha
Next time remind me to read the entire thread as i just did now .... Mocara puts it best even tho hes an old fogie and cant play 4min turns ...
I feel bad for Jinxer....  (i am not gonna elaborate he can figure out why for himself)
Troelson smart person too
Rychen is.... well Rychen is.... Rychen is an Austrailian
Its a funny thread so many disputes this way and that... btw... what happened to the dirty *******'s tourny that implies no rules? I guess i am out of the loop as usual
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted August 06, 2001 06:11 PM |
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to babbling_unicorn
The dirty tourney got put on the shelf , seems our members didn't wanna play that way.. guess thats why they joined
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted August 07, 2001 12:05 PM |
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babble
I dont babble i ramble theres HUGE difference i...... nvm
Rambling and ranting is what i do i dont babble why to imagine u have the gull to even say such a thing . Pan the rented mule u finally beat me congrats
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted August 08, 2001 09:19 PM |
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Hit 'n' Run
I belive that hit n run is part of the game , and therefore I belive that using it is fair (I have never used it because I've been in ToH for only 3 weeks but given the opportunity I would make no hezitation in using it).
I have a humble suggestion - to avoid hit n run in Heroes IV the guys from 3DO can implement the next rule in the computer - surrender cannot be possible if a player hasn't moved at least a troop ; surrendar can be allowed when both players had the opportunity to move at least one troop.
I would really like to see your opinions about this sugestion!
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ
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