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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted March 25, 2001 09:22 PM |
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sometimes the slowest creature survives
a point that everyone fails to bring up if a hit and runner, may have the faster army but as like Mocara says carry magic resistant arts or all the nice little arts that take away spells like lighting bolt or recanters, most hit and runners are wanting to do the most damage possible, makes no sense for me to waste 2500 gold on a hero to cast 1 magic arrow and run?? what point is that. recently I did have one great scout fight with scout 40 spell points with 25 skels, 4 walking dead and 4 wraiths. My opponents second general ran short of move and was one square off.
he had 3 bones and about horde of skels, I figured with spreading out all my creatures, in to even stacks I could kill one bone drag. so I attacked I did eventually run but not until I accomplished my goal of killing the bone drag. Will it help me probably not as I mention below.
I would use a tactic such as soly and pendant of negitivity, since that is a deadly combo and would use my heroes to their best advantages, even thou to those it may seem cheap but why carry more army than you need to either 1 waste the gold on when you know you have to buy the hero back for better map position and 2 you underestimated the strength of your opponent. It may irriate the other player, but I have been hit and ran so many times its incalculable. 9 out of 10 times when someone is hit and running they are just trying to buy time from their inevitable death.
Its part of the game, until they disallow it in heroes 4 we have to live with it, those who do not play with the only rule being the grail. "unless map & towns come with them" are cowards and lack the skills to play the WHOLE ENTIRE game.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 26, 2001 02:14 AM |
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I conceed..... :)
I am going to bow outta this discussion and conceed to the hit and runners. This discussion has always been one that is not winnable. AS I could go on for hours arguing about it just to see another boring and unlogical attempt to defend it. So I say USE it! I will just stick to my normal standards of not playing any such people who do use it. Game ON! 
Also to you Kres, Who you calling a coward!!! Anytime you think you can take me bring it on!!! I can take ya. ( unless ofcourse you hit and run me
Laterz all.
Jinxer
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted March 26, 2001 04:30 AM |
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Now Come on Jinxer
You got the skills, not to make silly rules.. its those who have no 4th no this and no that.. those are the ones I am saying are cowards.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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Mr_Shane
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 26, 2001 05:15 AM |
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an experience i had
There was one game when both of us had decided no rules. However, during the game there came to a critical point. If i did not hit and run him , i would lose. however, if i hit and run him the victory would probably be mine.
It is usually times like this when some of us would get put into a dilemma. We have decided no rules, BUT Does he know about hit and run??? If i hit and run a person who does not know about it, is it honorable or fair?
What does HC think of this?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 26, 2001 06:23 AM |
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~~~~ :) ~~~~~
I know you were not talking about me Kres. I was just messing with ya. I usually play no rules anyways.
Would like a game with ya though. Would be fun.
Jinxer
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted March 26, 2001 07:26 AM |
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no rules
Shane, i think if you agree to no rules (other than cheating with codes or something) than hit and run is perfectly fine, just my opinion.
Ironmlh
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted March 26, 2001 10:41 AM |
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Well I lost recently to Hit&Run
I had no other options. He had matching castles, I had to go for him. I had 30% resistance, but there was no recanter's cloak or shackles  I had all my troops on and I left myself just far enuff away to reach his castle, but because he had taken his troops off and had boots. He could still hit me twice with his main as well as once with deemer(about lvl7) So he could 3 free hits on me. The 30% resistance didnt do anything for me. He also had adela built up so he had a much bigger army than mine already, but yet he wouldnt come for me Why he was waiting for the hit&run cause I had no choice but stop him from getting more troops each week. I personally see this strategy as very cowardly, and I wont be playing this player in the future. I dont understand what is so great about this tactic?? And to you who enjoy beating a person with it, rather than actually fighting. I repeat my earlier message I aint interested in playing you!! I didnt enjoy this loss...
Jex
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 04:05 AM |
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Shane
This HC person thinks we all get killed one way or another to learn new strategies. If your opponent doesn't know what hit and run is or to use several heroes or whatever, then playing and losing is the best way to learn, and I think most would agree. That was my first encounter with hit and run I think.
I got whiped all over the battle field with arma and effreets even with my superiorly played game in all respects accept that. It was a horrific feeling being shreded apart so easily after I had worked so hard and done amazingly well with my fortress. I chalked it up as a learning experience AND congratualted my opponent on having a superior plan though I had run the map better. Just because you run the map better doesn't entitle a person to a win in HOMM3. It seems people actually feel like they should win if they do often times. If you wanna be nice and make someone feel good then lose all your games on purpose. I suppose that would be most kind, especially if you have the brains and power to win.
-dEth8
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 04:20 AM |
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Cowardly?
Jex what are you talking about cowardly? The guy is supposed to win the game if he can right? Sounds like he was waiting around to build up his good fortunes and you were coming to try to take that away. I am surprised that you didn't complain he had two same castles also cause that is really unfare too. I guess he could have rolled over and let you beat him though and then everyone would be happy accept him. Is that fair?
You could have just waited for him to attack you with double the forces and he would never have had to assure himself a win and you would never have needed to bach him for pulling out this tactic, but you were trying to win right? Consider it the ultimate 'fisbin of STINKING misfortune' if someone has the ability to hit and run you. Remeber that art?.....man that thing sucked when you got it on your main. Taxes was a bummer too.
It sounds like you just had a bad game and now are upset about losing is all.
Anyhow, it is nice that you didn't blast this persons name around the zone or the board which is very commendable.
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 05:53 AM |
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For all you guys that say hit and run is so cheap and cowardly, there is nothing cheaper than having higher stats through artifacts, speed, or other early game developments and thinking you can just walk around all over your opponents territory and further increase your lead. I played a guy who had alamar and reds vs me with sultans and armageddon, who decided it's ok not to upgrade the reds, cause he can just walk all around my territory, resurrect his dragons and have me sit in the castle till the game is over. That is even cheaper and more cowardly than hit and running. All these players think they get high stats and they won, let's just have a big final battle and have the stats dominate. Hit and run is just another tactic that is an option for balancing the luck of the game. One player can get 10 relics, the others only option is hit and run or just stand around like a coward and lose. Sure there are times where hit and run is not stoppable and you can't do anything to beat it, but there are also times when your opponent gets tome of earth in tomb. What is the difference between this? Bad luck happens. The fact is that hit and run is defendable, is is risky because of shackles, and it is very expensive. Instead of constantly snowing about someone hit and running with 1 archangel, why won't you guys try to calculate out their logistics and meet them with a stack of level 1's with ballista, tent, and ammo and see how they like it. 5000 bucks down the drain for nothing.
The beauty of heroes is that there are solutions for almost everything, so instead of calling people cheap and cowardly maybe people should try to figure these solutions out.
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 10:06 AM |
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Yea, your case was pretty bad JEX, I don't know why someone would bother hit and running if they know they have the winning advantage, but what can you do.
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 10:47 AM |
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For an old post
I just reread some of the earlier posts and i haveta say one thing about Kres' post. Who is the coward the person who wont play with rulez or the person who wants rulez? Obiviously this is a question that each person will asnwer differently. I see it as somewheres in between, a truely good player should be able to kick ur butt no matter what rulez are set in front of him. So calling a person a coward for requesting to play the game with rulez, doesnt seem right. Afterall he just trying to change the game, so that he will get the most enjoyment out of it. This is cowardly?? I am sorry but I haveta disagree with you on that one.
Jex
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 12:40 PM |
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Stupid argument that has been done to death, i'ts not like you are going to convert anyone to your side of the debate is it?
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Myctteakyshd
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted March 29, 2001 02:12 PM |
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Wow! These letters are really well written in this thread.
I know I have already added Phantom, Woods and Deth8 to my ZM list in hopes to get a good no rules game in sometime soon.
I think this thread is important because a lot of new players do not know that there is more than one side to these issues and therefor are cheated of ever being able to work on the strategies involved.
Being a deciple of the teachings of Bruce Lee and Sun Tzu I cannot understand the concept of showing mercy on an opponent.
If someone breaks into my home and I am in my living room I would hit them with a wine bottle.
If in my kitchen I stab them.
If in my bedroom I have the luxory to shoot them.
Point being I use what is there for me as The Tao of Jeet Kun Do teaches.
Shane if you agreed to no rules and then you don't use a tactic that your opponent may not know about you are cheating him of a learning oppurtunity.
As I was reading opposing viewpoints I was trying hard to see each persons point of view but I have a hard time when I hear the words coward and cheat as have appeared in many letters.
This is a tactic. It is not a bug in the game. The programmers have been asked many times about it and they have never once referred to it as any kind of mistake in the game so for anyone to refer to it as a cheat is incorrect.
Cowardly is not a word that applies to either end as it is merely a difference of opinion. Hit and run is taking advantage of an aspect of the game that is very hard to stop.
Rule being; 'If I have faster creatures than you and you do not have one of the methods availible to stop that then you lose.'
Powerful.
Let's look at the flip side of that.
The opposite of this might state;
'I don't care how fast your creatures are I have more of them and therefor I will win. Or in other words "I am a better builder."'
Or maybe;
'We both built perfectly but I had a better town draw and therefor I will win.'
Or perhaps;
'Our armies are fairly even but I had a better artifact draw so I have much better stats.'
Or finally;
'Everything else was even but I got lucky in my mage guild and you got summon water elemental, therefor I win.'
When players play even the elements decide the game many times.
Great players make their own luck to a degree and certainly they know how to exploit the breaks they are given but oftentimes after a game is over it is said 'I knew I was in trouble (fill in your last loss here).
When players of equal ability meet one has a chance to outplay the other and make less errors but when they play evenly most of the time it are the lil random variables that will decide the game.
What a tragedy when you outplay your opponent and he picks up a combination artifact from a shipwreck survivor. Maybe we should take those out of the game?
How horrible a thing to get cornucopia from your dragon utopia while your opponent gets Angelic Alliance. "What a cowardly way to win." some might say. Maybe we should take this from the game?
What a waste to play 8 hours only to build all your guilds and get nothing while your opponent gets implosion. "What a cheater!!" Maybe we take this from the game?
If I had to vote I might vote to rid Heroes of these overpowering elements but then I would pause because censoring is a dangerous game and if we start taking away we may one day have nothing left in our hands.
The point is there are worse things to beat you then a player having a plan and executing it like hit and run. I'd rather be beat by that then by random relic draw or lame town draw.
The people who do not like hit and run seem to say it is indefencible so Vesuvius, here is a new suggestion for a tourney (kind of joking here but kind of serious).
A magic vs might tourney.
Players like Deth8 and Phantom1500 go up against non-hitters like Jinxer and you have to dispose of the other team using their methods. In other words Jinxer has to beat his opponent utilizing hit and run where as Deth8 must win by fighting alone.
If hit and run is so easy to pull off and impossible to defend against then the hit and runners will have it easy right? :-)
The non hit and runners admit they have never used the tactic. Maybe if they had used it more they would see it is so defensible.
By the way catch me on the zone and I will give you 2 wins for each win you beat me by hit and run. That is how sure I am that it is able to be stopped 95% of the time.
Also I think map makers need to address this issue in their design. Maybe make a might version of the map where both heroes start with recanters or maybe make the areas around the towns all cursed ground.
Kres and Woods, your comments were unemotional and well thought out and I appreciated them a great deal. And for all the opposers of hit and run, also some great points were made about sometimes it being indefensible but mostly what I heard was just about the losses you have suffered to it and how now you won't play those people.
That is a good rule to play by and thankfully we have so many players around now that we can all have different rules and still find a lot of opponents to play by them.
Noone posting to this thread are cowards or cheats to my knowledge.
-Mocara
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 03:09 PM |
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Here are my points...
1. I the game for fun 1st
2. Where is the fun in building up a level 7 army for 5 weeks of a game so your opponent can come along and implode the lot of them...with no chance of retribution?
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Myctteakyshd
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 04:40 PM |
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different styles
im impressed moccara, its a pity that my english isn't as good enough to reach that quality...
but what i want to say (especially to rychenroller and those who think in that way) :
imo there are two manners of h3-gameplay - one more theoretical the other more practical....
on the one hand the 'nice weather players' (players who use
a gym because the weather outside may have any influence to their sports)
- reducing any chance in gameplay like 2nd
skills
- often choose towns
- often like closed maps (so they won't be
disturbed for a while)
- seems to me as tiger-woods-matching ( no
offense, just have a look at the pun )
- believe in finishing a match by the clash
of two godsī
-> very good players, mb the best ones in t-o-h
on the other side the more practical ones, people who brings in their practical knowledge of life ( cause the remember there isnt only luck during lifetime)
- no rules
- all random
- often like open maps (attack your opponent
when he isnt ready)
- match is at an end when opponent is down,
doesnt matter
how ....
- seems to me as jake-la-motta style
-> also good players (with one exception )
and pls note, not every point of a class must match to 1 player but its the direction....
i think theres no reason to suppress one of these groups
woods
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Amazon_King
Hired Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 08:30 PM |
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Well, it seems that all sorts of reasonable opinions have been thrown in this interesting thread. Being only an average player (albeit with 100+ ToH games on record) I really can't think of anything new to contribute, except for showing my personal way of handling the hit'n'run (and more broadly, the "special rules") issues that arise before starting up a game:
1. I might like a win as much as anyone else, but I can also have my butt kicked in a 6h+ game and still feel I've had fun, especially when I know I've played skillful and honorable opponent, thus...
2. I will consider playing by almost all rules or no rules as stated by my opponent (except for the ones who seem to be interested in a game only if playing on map A, being color B, choosing castle C and hero D, with special rules X, Y and Z!)
3.I also understand that not all players need to share my personal views as stated above, and thus I respect the ones that will only play a game where hit'n'run is disallowed (or allowed, the attitude is pretty much the same for me).
Luckily enough for all of us, there's a fair number of players around almost everytime in the Zone, so I guess we can always find a game that suits our mood.
Anyway, enough talking, I guess I wrote too much for a 1st post :-) Just hope to meet and play any of you guys who posted in this thread soon, all excellent comments!
Best Regards
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted March 29, 2001 09:37 PM |
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Simple rebuff
To those I am refering to as cowards of the game are those who play with all these assorted rules, just to tip the balance of game into their favorite playing style, or to prevent them from losing before ever starting. I have had several games start out that way recently where I lost on day 1 just because of the draw (2 level 2 heroes with 1 stack ugh ) but I didnt complain i went on and played the game, I lost but I explained well this what happened and how my opponent dominated me so easy. I hate the word luck and despise using it. I say it was the way it turned out and thats how random generated games are played with a simple sort of logic behind it. The computer when generating the map has no idea that it loaded one side of the map with every +5 stat art and the other with trinkets.
I dont know how many times I have been killed by armageddon with efreet sultans (quite a few on DW) I take on any challange, I just have 2 simple things 1 no grail unless town and map design is part of it such as crossroads and battlefest. and 2 no 1 minute turns, since it for me takes away that "fun" aspect everyone talks about. But if its part of a tournament such as speed deamon I play 1 minute, I am not very good at it but I play and do what I can with it.
Every player has their own strengths and weaknesses. My goal is to be a overall decent player with the ability to adapt to an ever changing heroes 3 game that has been out for over 2 years.
Have fun all.. and may my coldness not deture you from playing me, since many say I am quite fun to play (if i got time) its simply put if the game allows it we should not complain about it learn from it and move on
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 02:45 AM |
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My opinion
I aint a fast enuff typer to keep up with you. Maybe you should write a book on the topic. But I would like you to stop exaggerating, this statement is a load of BS!
"By the way catch me on the zone and I will give you 2 wins for each win you beat me by hit and run. That is how sure I am that it is able to be stopped 95% of the time. "
Anyone who has every been hit and ran knows this. cause they have thought of all the possibles to stop it. And the chances for getting the right arts, arent that good. I know I never get the shackles 95% of the time.
I understand ur view of the game is to do everything possible to win. I know I try hard to, but I dont like to see a game come down to who has the fastest creature. Why? Well thats my opinion and the way I like to play the game!!! If u play like this u will soon realize that their arent 'lame castle' just people that dont know how to use em. As for the combo art bit, you dont like it when ur opponent gets angellic alliance out of the water. Dont Play SoD!!! I know I dont.
My agreement is simple I enjoy a good fight, that is back and forth not this:
"Rule being; 'If I have faster creatures than you and you do not have one of the methods availible to stop that then you lose.' "
By playing with this rule you elimanite alot of game play. That Game play would be actually fighting ur opponent!!! This is what I enjoy most, so i dont want it elimanited from the game.
Just hope you can see my point. Plz dont write another book, cause I wont bother to read it.
Jex
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted March 30, 2001 03:08 AM |
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In the "Woods" theory
Well then that puts me in the not quite good yet I dont suck category
for one I prefer closed map, but i play no rules as only to what the map dictates to me. I play by specific tournament rules in that they say you can not hit and run then you dont. but the bottom line is.. How do you overcome something that is not always defeatable. Very rare chance it does turn out in your favor great.. Frank has written a long subject about this on the old board you may want to find it and do some more research. Its very pracitile and I found that most of the things he suggested worked in stopping hit and run cold, and another thing is tactics, or even better artillery when defending a town in 3.2  got to love that
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