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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Abortion/Contraception/Stem Cell Research
Thread: Abortion/Contraception/Stem Cell Research This thread is 92 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 20 40 60 80 ... 88 89 90 91 92 · «PREV / NEXT»
Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 05, 2004 01:25 PM

Contraception

The interesting about this thread is the fact that it quickly became an argument about abortion.
My position on this topic is probably flavoured by the fact that Im dane, and in Denmark abortion was legalized as one of the first countries in the world. So I grew up with the notion that abortion was perfectly normal.
I must admit that it is a problem if abortion becomes a contraceptive measure, instead of a last resort to unwanted pregnancies.

Therefore it is important that people start to discuss what can be done about these unwanted pregnancies that leads to abortion.

Well again imho the most important thing that can be done about this is education.
Yes you read me right, education in sex and how to use contraception measures such as condoms.
The bonus you get from that is also the reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases.

To support this contention of mine, I will quote a study from Sweden concerning teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases.
In 1975 Sweden started an ambitious project to educate young people about sex and the use of contraception. Among the things the Swedes did was to make sex education apart of the public school curricula, and building sex-clinics all around the country, where people could get help and information.
This has lead to a reduction in teenage pregnancies by 80 % and a reduction in sexually transmitted diseases by 40% during the last 20 years.
Sweden have 7 pregnancies pr 1000 teenagers. In comparison the Great Britain have 20 pregnancies and the U.S. and astounding 53 pregnancies (This is more than countries like Rwanda and Indonesia).

Just a few thoughts on the importance of contraceptions.

Regards

Defreni

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 05, 2004 03:48 PM

Quote:
That way, nobody imposes their values on another. If we do it the other way and let the pro-life people impose their values on others, I say that the pro-choice people should get a "impose value on pro-life people for free" card and use it for whaterver they want, like:

I'm all in favor of abortion, but what you are saying, bjorn, makes little sense.
First of all, the value that pro-life people want to "impose" is not a value at all. It's a law that would forbid crimes and "imposing values by pro-choice people on innocent babies and harming them" in their eyes.

Take the murder thing for example. There could be people that are in favor of killing and those who are not. Does that mean that pro-killer shouldn't be imposed with laws that would limit their murder "values"? Of course not.
The central issue to prove in our case is that the harm that would be done by having the baby is significantly bigger than the harm done by aborting it.

I hope you got my point here. I'm on your side, so dont get all over me for this.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted June 05, 2004 06:27 PM
Edited By: Consis on 5 Jun 2004

Stunning Remarks----->High Degree Of Sound Research

Quote:
I must admit that it is a problem if abortion becomes a contraceptive measure, instead of a last resort to unwanted pregnancies.

Excellent point. I concur.
Quote:
Therefore it is important that people start to discuss what can be done about these unwanted pregnancies that leads to abortion.

I know many families and marriages that refuse to talk about such things. They consider the entire subject of sex to be of a most private nature.
Quote:
Well again imho the most important thing that can be done about this is education.

Yes but the education can only be implemented with government approval and legislature(unless you live in a dictatorship). Educative means of informing those that are young usually must also take into consideration what the teens' parents or legal guardians think as well. Because of this I think the education must be approached with great social tactfulness. We cannot simply ram the education down peoples' throats. We must find a way that a majority of citizens of whichever country you are in find acceptable. Too forward or blunt an approach and the education of the young may be fought and stonewalled by the parents of the teens. Progress is progress even if it is a little at a time. I think it's better to always keep in mind the feelings of the parents as well as the teens when trying to establish some sort of foundation for educating the youth on contraceptive techniques and sound preventive measures.

Quote:
The bonus you get from that is also the reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases.

I agree.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 06, 2004 03:21 AM

Quote:
Educative means of informing those that are young usually must also take into consideration what the teens' parents or legal guardians think as well.

We must find a way that a majority of citizens of whichever country you are in find acceptable.

I disagree. Sex education is an issue much too important to be hampered by "morally" blind parents that don't want their children hearing "dirty" words and talking about sex. The government should act energically and effectively, if we ever want to witness a real change in the public awareness, not just about contraception, but for other sex-related issues.
You seem to question the legitimacy of this sort of action, which in fact is already there. That kind of implementation certainly cannot be imposed by any other subject, but the legitimately elected government.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted June 06, 2004 06:05 AM

I agree that everyone should have thier own choices, even if it is abortion.
Sometimes kids that are born are living in such unstable conditions & really bad care that it is sometimes it seems it's better then the mothers just having sex & not caring about what happens.
Some young fathers & Mothers dont think, they think they are more responsible just because they finally have kids, but theres more to it then just having them.
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KittenAngel
KittenAngel


Supreme Hero
Lee's wifey
posted June 06, 2004 08:53 PM
Edited By: KittenAngel on 6 Jun 2004

ok here is were I get serious. They way I see this whole abortion situation, that innocent child did not ask to be brought into this world the mother and father laid there bed, and should have to pay the coasts, and that is parenthood. The ONLY way I could see having an abortion is 1 it is going to kill the mother, 2 if the baby is already dead, or 3 mum was raped. See I am a mom so 2 of these choices above wouldn't make me want to have an abortion, as for number 1, the way I see it, I have lived a full life let this baby come into this world and enjoy life. number 3 well as I stated before the child is innocent in this, if I couldn't handle knowing how the baby was concived I would just put the child up for adoption. Children are a blessing not a curse, they are completely innocent. If a mother can't handle the fact of being a mother than please put the baby up for adoption, do not end an innocent life.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted June 07, 2004 03:54 PM
Edited By: Consis on 10 Jul 2004

Thread Responses From The Tavern

In the Tavern a member, by the name of Ruby, has started a new thread called "Abortion is Murder". Interestingly enough, that thread is getting a healthy number of well-thought-out responses. In the spirit of having a good debate, I shall be copy/posting the responses from that thread into this one. I wasn't aware until now, but some members don't ever even look in the Other Side of the Monitor forum. I think it's best to always try and have as many opinions as possible when discussiing something. I don't know if any of the Tavern posters are aware of this thread but perhaps someday they will visit the Other Side and join some of the great discussions we have here. Although this mostly focuses on the abortion aspect and leaves much to be said about contraception and stem cell research, I think the comments are quite intellectual.

Ruby writes:
"Abortion is murder!!!

Okay here is something for all you people who actually care about this issue, which is very important now that the presidential election is right behind the corner.

Abortion is murder. This child inside the mother is alive, it is developing a brain, a body, and a heart. A baby is a human even though it may only be a few cells contained.

Well some people say that if the baby is only a cell, it's not gonna matter. It can't feel it right?

The thing is, this baby could grow up, be happy, be a normal child like anyone else. If you can't handle the baby, set it up for adoption. You are killing a person! It's just like you would kill me right now, which u people who disagree with me would if you could.

Well some people say that it's the mothers choice and she has right to do whatever with her body.

OMG! Its not her body for crying out loud! It's the babies body! Don't give me that crap! If that baby had a mouth to speak, I think that he'd want a chance in life. For some people life may suck, but give that little life a chance. ABORTION IS MURDER!

You ask, why do I bring up this heart breaking issue? Well, we have had a debate with one of our political teachers and he was fine with abortion. I just heard about a story of a child that was taken out of a mother, too old to abort, but had scissors jammed into the back of their head. In abortion, sometimes they actually put the baby's body parts into containers and send them into labs. Oh great. Is this something GOOD? What is going on with the world! I can just start crying right now.

Do you not agree??"


Romana writes:
"To some extent I have to agree with you Ruby but there are cases in which I think it should be possible.
For instance a baby conceived as a result of rape.

There are also cases when tests before the 3rd month( I think?) prove the baby will be horribly mutilated or diseased in which case I also think it should be possible to end the pregnancy.

Lately I have been thinking about children with down syndrom and what I would do if I knew the baby I was carrying had it.. It's a hard decision to make in any case I think"


The famous PrivateHudson writes:
"I, like Romana and (apparently) SS disagree, but I would further add that sometimes, with the problems surrounding adoption and so on there is a further case for the need to be extended to those cases in which the mother is mentally incapable of bearing the child also. The system of adoption in this country is already overloaded, whilst saying "choose adoption" is fine in principle, not much thought tends to go into who would actually adopt all these children.

And whilst obviously the story you mentioned is horrifying, to use it in order to assume that it is the norm and therefore justify banning abortion is just plain wrong. Generally I would say that the choice should be left with the parents involved who have to choose for the child whether the circumstances will permit the child a good life or, for whatever reason not."


Ruby responds:
"If rape is involved

If there is rape involved in the abortion, dude, the baby is still a baby. It doesn't make this child any different from any other baby. It's just like anyone else.

Adoption is still a great option, greater than killing it."


Laelth writes:
"I had a 9 oz. steak for dinner. Somebody killed that cow. A fetus is a living, growing human being, sure, and having an abortion kills it. But is it "murder" to kill it? Is it "murder" to kill the cow? (Murder is a crime that carries the death penalty in many of the United States.) The fact is that we kill living things all the time. Sometimes killing living things is justified (carrots, apples, asparagus, shrimp, chicken, fish, cows, and even dogs--when the population at my local animal shelter gets too high, many animals are "euthanized"). It's even justified to kill humans on occasion (self-defense, war, perhaps even assisted suicide). The question is which of any of these killings are we going to call "murder," i.e. deserving of the full penalty of the criminal law. One can choose to call abortion murder or a justified killing, depending on one's own ethics, but let's make one thing very clear. Not all killing is murder. We have yet to decide, finally, what an abortion is, leaglly. So, when somebody says "abortion is murder," what they're really saying is "I think abortion should be a crime that carries the maximum penalty of the law." That's a matter of opinion, obviously, and not a factual statement.

-Laelth"


Vadskye91 responds:
"Although I am generally Pro-Life, I strongly disagree with this. Forcing a mother to keep a baby that is not her own is just cruel. Not only does the expactant mother have the emotional guilt (could I have stopped that? Is this my fault?) but now she also has to account for a child that she did not want and is not prepared for. The child will not have a father and will always have the sneaking suspicion (that may be true!) that their mother didn't want them. I think that abortion should be allowed in cases such as rape, or if the child is handicapped enough that they could not enjoy a decent life. I think that if the mother was simply stupid enough to have sex outside of marriage and/or before she is emotionally ready to deal with the child then it's her own fault for sacrificing long-term happiness for short-term pleasure."

The famous PrivateHudson responds:
"Interesting to note that people advocating adoption as an alternative to abortion don't seem to also have much idea about the strain it would put on the adoption process..."

Shai-Hulud writes:
"Now let's take it logically! Ruby is more than right. When we are in danger we scream for our life! A fetus can't do that! Ok but abortion are around for 2 milleniums at least and it won't stop even if the law says so! I'll give you an example... In Romania, in the communist period abortion was illegal and if you were caught you could have went to prison...Even though my grandmother did an abortion at her 11'th child and died beacuse of this( she made the abortion herself even if she wasn't a doctor and died beacuse she didn't had an aspirine - the communists asked you what you need for when you bought an aspirine... ). So trough all the arguments that ruby gave I came to the conclusion that abortion should be banned, but not trough the method that the communist did, by helping that mother to raise her child...
My grandmother didn't made that abortion beacuse she was raped or because she had *** one time and she didn't took a pill or something like this, because she didn't had enough food to feed them all and she was to poor...
But study this case! The cells that a fetus has in his first 2 weeks are going to form his organs - heart, brain etc. Those cells can be extracted( and the technolgy exists) so that they could be donated to another person to help him replace his heart for example. In this case the fetus will die. What would you do in this case. A life for another..."


Marelt_Ekiran writes:
"And besides, where do we draw the line when something is a potential life or not...

Following the same logic, every time a women goes through the menstruation cycle without becoming pregnant, it's murder. Because that egg cell could have become a child. Everytime a male ejaculates, it's a waste of 100-300 million potential lives.
Since everybody would say that the above sounds ridiculous, I can safely assume that fertilization is considered the borderline. So when the egg and the sperm cell come together, then all of a sudden, that combination is life, which is sacred, holy, and whatnot.

Fact is that this world can only support a limited amount of human beings. If that were not the case, then we could just reproduce to infinity and the population of humans would be somewhere in the trillions right now.
So would it not be more logical to bring the children to earth with a better chance of survival and a good life? I don't believe that any mother who aborts a child just does this coldheartedly and for no apparent reason (and if she does, would she have made a good mother?). Usually, the reason is that the mother either can't support the child or does not feel emotionally or physically fit to bring up the child.
In that case, would it not be better to not let the child be born. You would probably do the child no favour by letting it be born in the circumstances named above, and the whole affair would just be a more-than-necesarry strain on society as a whole. The amount of resources spend on that child would better be spend on a child that was desired to come to this earth, and has therefore a much better potential to achieve something...

A last question. Why is the murder of another human being bad? Two reasons:
1) The potential in that person's life was ripped away.
2) The strain on the survivors who knew the victim.

In the above paragraph, I just refuted the first reason when it comes to abortion. As for the second reason, the only person who knows the unborn child at this point in the mother. So I would say that the choice is hers to make.

Before people start summing up their arguments against my statements, let me just inform you of two of my believes:
- Any argument based on religion is null and void.
- Nothing on this earth has a value on it's own. Something must be applied to have a value, and this statement includes life in general."


FrostWolf writes:
"By the way, if the fetus had a mouth and could speak, it wouldn't say it wants a chance at life, since beeing less than 9 months old it is not famyliar with the concepts of life and death, and it couldn't talk anyway.

Seriously now, I have nothing against abortion, and there are countless arguments to prove it's not wrong.
For example, the planet is already overpopulated, and any newborn will only lead to a further decrease in the ecologycal balance.
On the other hand, saying that it's a life you're ending is somewhat wrong. It's true, but it's not that big a deal. For example, think about when you kill a bug: you say it's a pity to end a life just because you can. But keeping in mind that the bug does not posses a central nervous system and is incapable of thought, it is safe to assume that it neither does care or want to prevent it's death, as he is unable o know the concept.
The same goes for babyes: at that very young age, you can only talk about an organism, not about an individual. While it may feel pain, it is still incapable of thought, or at least abstract thought, so it can not understand life and death. Also, it would not chose to live since (even it could reason) it is not aware of the outside world. Therefore, ending a life in it's early stage is no more a crime (biologicaly at least) than killing any other animal, even an insect. Also, it is a matter of religion. As I am an atheist I do not belive in christian dogma, and do not necesarily admit the existence of the soul and the sin of destroing it.

There's a lot more on this, I just don't have enough time now."


Svarog responds:
Hmmm... First, the baby has a potential for life, so you cannot reject your first reason just like that. Hell, even the sperms have potential for life.
If it is left for those who know the victim to decide for his/her life, then it's a cruel ignoring of the basic human right - the right to live. The murder of another human being is bad by itself. Relations with other people are not a factor there.
I'm not against abortion, but the way you 2 are trying to defend it, just doesn't help us. There's a mistake even in the start of your argument - the assumption that the fetus is a person. If it was true, than all the human rights would have to apply to the fetus also, i.e. abortion would be considered murder.

Bugs posses some suvival instincts so it's not all the same to them whether they live or die. Tryiing to justify killing bugs with ethics is simply impossible, as probably abortion is impossible to fully justify with ethical reasoning, but only with pragmatic one (the side with more benefits wins).

Killing human organisms is not fine ethically, which is why I said it can't be justified ethically. However, a life without personality that is -5 months old is objectively less important than the mother's life (personality included in the mum package ), and also there's the issue about the undesirable conditions that the unwanted baby would grow up.
Pro-life people usually emphasize the fact that the baby is a living thing, but also a human cell is a living thing, impossible to survive on her own, just like the fetus. Like it or not, the fetus is just a group of tissues that cannot survive outside the womb and lack personality, and few would miss those tissues, unlike the mess that could happen in both the mother's and the child's lives, if the baby is born.


Shai-Hulud responds:
Oh, really? I baby won't scream if he is in danger... The problem what danger means to him...For us danger is when could get hurt or die.But for a baby...Danger for him is taking his bottle of milk from his mouth, taking his toy from his hand...You are not taking this problem from one perspective...We really don't know what a baby is thinking...Maybe he has also those animal instincts( which by the way we have them to but we manage to keep them in the subconcios) and he is warned from those instincts of the same danger that we percept! Real life danger! You will say this is absolutely absurd. Go for it! I will say one simple thing! Life is absurd!
Oh...By the way nobody related to what I said involving saving a life trough killing another...
Ruby! I'm almost sure you wouldn't give your life for another! You know way...Beacause there are to many to be saved and you wouldn't know where to choose from and you will come to one conclusion(which you will read it below). Go to an hospital with cronichal diseases and you will see so many people that have some many health problems and you will realize that it's better that you stayed alive to help evryone of them. Sacrificing yourself for another is not the brightest solution...If all of us would have taken this model, where would we be today? Lots of people sacrifing for others. Imagine what would have happened if Edison or Benjamin Franklin or Voltaire would have made choosed this solution. We would have been in the BRONZE AGE!


bjorn190 writes:
What about not getting pregnant every 9 months? is that murder too? I mean, you could be making babies.. if you dont do that, all those babies are not alive =(((((( its murder!!

Shai-Hulud retorts:
We get a fetus, so eventually a baby, when the male gamet engages that biological process, called fertilazation, with the female gamet( ohh! i was so scientific: you can call me now the father of biology)...
We are talking about killing fetuses not about human cells alone.


PrivateHudson writes:
The adoption process is already struggling, but please, don't let that bother you

The_Gootch writes:
Bah, both arguments don't wash.

It's murder, but it needs to remain legal until such time we live in a world where there are no unwanted pregnancies.


LordZXZX writes:
I'm not against abortion, but if they want to abort they must have a sufficient reason.
Consider the following:
Ruby haven't any unwanted pregnancies b4. If you do get an unwanted pregnancy,(like being raped) would you keep the baby? At 14, there's so much work at school and such, having a fetus in your womb adds your stress. OK, so you wanna put the baby for abortion. But are you willing to go for 9 months in your teens? If I were a girl, I wouldn't.
Besides, there's all that hassle you have to go through the abortion.


Gandalfs_Girl writes:
I agree. i don't think abortion is right because there is usually a way of ensuring u dont get pregnant so no need to consider abortion. but reasons like rape i think if u want abortion it is ok. like u said adoption but i know if i was raped and had to go 9 months havin this "thing" inside me i wudn't be able to cope. no1 should have to go thru that.

Marelt_Ekiran writes:
Keep in mind that no method of prevention is absolutely fool-proof (aside from abstinance).


Gandalfs_Girl writes:
well if it makes u feel any better ppl are becoming less fertile everyday s'posedly according to new experiments all because of drinkin tap water.
womens oral contraceptive (the pill) is getting into the water through women goin to the toilet because it cannot be filtered out so men drink it and become less fertile.
so less ppl are gettin preggers anyways.


(found a post made by bort in a different thread dated to: June 16, 2003 10:14 AM)

bort responds to RedSoxFan3:
For cryin' out loud, have some moral consistency. If you believe sentient human life begins at conception than how can you allow every woman to have "one and only one" abortion (and I'm sure women everywhere are glad to have one's as magnamonious as you parceling out control of their bodies to them like that)? That would imply that everybody gets to kill one person for free. If you don't believe that a fetus is sentient human life, than how can you justify illegalizing abortion at all? Would it be to penalize women for having sex while letting the guys get off (pun intended) free? You didn't mention if the pregnancy endangers a woman's life, does that count towards her abortion ration?

RedSoxFan3 then replies to bort:
I don't believe that it is a created at conception, but during beginning of the pregnancy by the parents of the fetus. I am very against abortion, but I also realize that it would be worse to bring an unwanted, abused, unloved child into the world. It is this reason that I think that the mother should have a choice in the matter. Although the man should have a choice as well, but this is not yet possible.

I find it sickening when I hear of stories of how some people have had several abortions. This killing of babies is horrible and I think they should not be able to take any more loss of life. Something must be done to keep them from killing more children. I think that there should be some kind of limit on the number of abortions. And there should be some way of punishing both men and women for this matter. For example, a man who impregnates several different women who have abortions should be punished for their carelessness also. There should be no double standards for this matter. It is so complicated that I don't think that there is a fair way to handle abortion.

I should have explained myself better.

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted July 10, 2004 07:23 AM

Do I have to read all that .
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted July 10, 2004 02:53 PM
Edited By: Consis on 11 Jul 2004

Aculias and to others,

If I find a post by a member that has already posted on this subject then I've taken the liberty to repost it here. I think this is helpful because sometimes a member feels they are tired of having to say what they feel over and over again. By finding their old posts and putting them in this thread then they can feel as though they are part of the whole when a community-wide discussion takes place on a subject that they feel strongly about. More or less, I'm simply doing my homework by adding their valued responses and opinions to this thread.

I think it's best to have a central location when having a meaningful debate and/or discussion. That way, no one gets left out or ignored and other members that are new to the community don't have to go searching for what has already been said. I'm doing the leg work.

**another opinon was posted in the Tavern abortion thread**

(dated: July 10, 2004 04:10 PM)
dodongo writes:
An embryo has no rights.

Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living.

If any among your are confused or taken in by the arguement that the cells of an embryo are living human cells, remember that so are all the cells of your body, including the cells of your skin, your tonsils, or your ruptured appendix and that cutting them is murder according to the notions proposed laws.

Point being what is inside a woman during the first weeks of pregnancy isn't technically alive. It has no nervsystem, pain receptors or responces.. it is just a collection of cells no different to those on your hands or face.


Nidhgrin adds:
I agree with Ruby saying abortion is murder, no matter at what time during pregnancy but...

Like Romy says I think there are cases where it should be possible. A baby conceived as a result of rape, or babies with some sort of life threatening disease like aids or other serious diseases. What if the mother may die giving birth due to some sort of complications? What if the mother's infected with aids for instance and doesn't have long to live anymore? What if the baby is infected aswell?

You're also talking about abortion as if it's the easiest thing in the world but I think if you'd have carried a baby for 9 months it wouldn't be so easy to give it up. You also need a man to make a baby with (though science's good on its way to make us redundant) who has to agree on that abortion. It's all not so easy...

Abortion is wrong but in some cases, I'd say it's the lesser of two evils.

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Pitsu
Pitsu


Adventuring Hero
posted July 12, 2004 07:11 PM
Edited By: Pitsu on 12 Jul 2004

Quote:
... please put the baby up for adoption, do not end an innocent life.


Do you believe that teenagers and adults are also innocent? Otherwise, killing a baby/embryo gives kind of same result as growing it up - lost innocent life. An extremist could even say that killing a baby would grant him/her the Heaven, growing up probably sends him/her to the Hell after death. Don't get me wrong, I love children, but I am testing the strength of your faith. lol

A side note. Young children, not to mention yet unborn ones do not fear death and value life as do adults (adults of modern western societies I mean). However, as long as doctors may not kill sick people for whom death is just redemption, we cannot hope that anyone listens to the opinion of an unborn child. Instead we listen to me, because I am an adult with no mental disorders and I know what abortion is (read from a newspaper no personal experiences of course).  EDIT: After readding this post you may not believe it, but I am considered mentally healthy

I do not see anything wrong with stem cell research. Clinical use of it, however, needs still time. Research isn't bad, it may turn bad if one uses the results before their are confirmed to be safe.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted July 14, 2004 05:11 PM
Edited By: Consis on 28 Jul 2004

Tavern Abortion Responses(cont.)

(Cat has revisited Heroes Community today and added some quality comments in the Tavern abortion thread)

Cat adds:
Hmmm, just occasionally I get *surprised* into posting again. No, I haven't read all the reply's here, just a few (I'm a bit to busy these days to vist really), but you all know me I have an opinion on everything.

Both my mother and my boyfriend were adopted and I love them dearly. However, I am very much pro abortion as adoption can cause quite a bit of damage, fostercare more so, and having a child who you don't want or you can't have must be the ultimate in painful, rape issues asside.

Being adopted hurts a lot. I have been told by many people, including two I love very much that it can be very painful, knowing that the one person who was meant to love you unconditionally didn't. That's a very sad thing.

That aside, on to the mothers. Yes, it is overwhelmingly a woman's right to chose, regardless of life in the foetus. One example is Edward's Syndrome. Any child born with Edward's Syndrome will not live very long (max 6 months)and will live a life in pain. It is very selfish to give birth to such a child in my opinion. They have no real hands and feet, no eyes, no real brain. It is so severe that doctors offer induced early labour as late as 8 months.

Another example is a mother who can't care for herself or her child. Maybe somebody who is too young, or who doesn't feel able to care for a child. Regardless of sentiment, I don't think it's right to use the law to attempt to force somebody to live a life they will be discontent with to the extent it will harm their child (ie, child abuse due to frustration). "I wish you'd never been born", maybe the harshest words in the world.

Before abortion was legalised, women would often attempt to get rid of the foetus themselves or go to a backstreet abortionist. More women died in this way, it has been suggested, than die yearly of breast cancer now. Simply making something illegal doesn't make it go away. The death of something which was never really alive can not possibly be said to be more horrible than the deaths of those already living, who may have wanted to be something more than housewives, and ended up without even their lives. The fact they knew the risks and were willing to gamble their lives says something.

Infantiside was also a major problem, the death of a newborn child after the confusion of birth largely agreed on as worse than the death of a three month old foetus smaller than a fist.

Whilst using abortion as a method of contraception is rightly frowned upon, as it is an unescessary risk to, appart from anything else, a woman's future fertilitly, as a woman who wishes for a good deal from life before she has a family I have to say that taking away the right to chose brings nothing but more blood on your hands.


Stem Cell Research

Ron Reagan(at the 2004 democratic convention in Boston) made an interesting speech last night. After hearing his speech on the matter I find that I am still uncertain of the future. As I posted in the thread originating post, I do still believe that stem cell research is the road to cloning. I am against cloning nor do I support it in any fashion.

To me, this subject is applicable to the modern-day issue of organ harvesting, donation, and procurement methods thereof. There are times when a person openly accepts and agrees to the harvesting of his/her organs for specified purposes. This is done with full consentual and contractual obligations. These agreements are binding and can be upheld in an american court of law.

Ron's speech disclosed his opinion, which I feel is understandably biased. He specifically addresses his opinion on what he believes is the moment of conception. He affirms that the fertilized egg is in fact not and nor will it ever be, a living breathing person until it is introduced a mother's womb.

The argument most place against his is that the moment of conception is when the egg becomes fertilized by the spermatazoan cell, be that in a womb, petry dish, test tube, or otherwise.

This is the real question: As a person, which do you consider to be the moment of conception?

I am very focused on a plethora of different problems that arise when projecting future experiments with mankind's historic behavior. Historically speaking, mankind will have a percentage of possibilities ranging from widely accepted to widely condemned. Just as any and every person has the right to decide what happens to their own organs upon death, so too does every conceivable person. It is true what Ron says about the fertilized egg not being a fetus with no brain, organs, or otherwise but those parts which are fundamental to a complete person, are even more fundamentally made up of starting cells with blueprints for the end creation. It is the embryo which comes before the fetus. All people start as an embryo. This is a proven fact of science.

I submit that it is my humble opinion, that stem cell research should be as illegal as unlawfully, forcibly, and nefariously removing a full adult's organs without full consent.
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Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted July 29, 2004 12:20 AM

Shots From The Male Peanut Gallery

I always found it quite disturbing that some of those people who fight for the right to abortion (thus ending the life of an unborn child) are the same ones who are fighting for the rights of that murderer on death row.  Let's not give the future child a chance to live, instead let's provide that opportunity to a convicted killer.

While I am thinking about it, something else just came to mind.  I cannot believe that in the United States, a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy, but is unable to accept monetary payment for sex.  Where is the equality and fairness in that?  Legalize prostitution now!
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted July 30, 2004 09:49 AM

Quote:
Legalize prostitution now!

That man speaks wisely.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
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Of Ruby
posted August 27, 2004 05:48 PM
Edited By: Consis on 16 Sep 2004

Proof Is In The Pudding


Or as a german man might say, the proof is in my jaw:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/08/27/jaw.transplant.ap/index.html


Here is a small excerpt:

"A German who had his lower jaw cut out because of cancer has enjoyed his first meal in nine years -- a bratwurst sandwich -- after surgeons grew a new jaw bone in his back muscle and transplanted it to his mouth in what experts call an "ambitious'' experiment.

German doctors used a mesh cage, a growth chemical and the patient's own bone marrow, containing stem cells, to create a new jaw bone that fit exactly into the gap left by the cancer surgery."


Roe vs. Wade short history:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/09/14/roe.v.wade/index.html


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Consis
Consis


Honorable
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Of Ruby
posted February 08, 2005 03:15 PM
Edited By: Consis on 8 Feb 2005

First To Allow Cloning: U.K.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/02/08/uk.cloning/index.html
I'm speechless at this point. I can't believe they would allow the cloning of living fertilized human eggs. This is a major step in scientific and philisophical terms. I think it is in the wrong direction though. I suppose some people simply couldn't resist the opportunity to become famous at the cost of an unborn child's life. This is murder. It is wrong. But then again I'd be a fool to think that this research wouldn't continue on the black market.

I urge man/woman-kind not to do this. We have nothing to lose but our humanity. Some people may be willing to pay but not me. I won't give up that which makes me what I am. It is an inalienable right in my opinion. No one has the right to take life away from a fertilized egg. Conception is the beginning of life and our existence. I believe the hypocrasy of cloning to be the literal end to a rightfully justified human life.
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darksparkle
darksparkle


Hired Hero
Quote the raven,
posted February 09, 2005 04:46 AM

I say that abortion is murder. A couple of my friends think its okay before two months, but who has found out she was pregnant before two months has passed? I agree that it may be neccessary when the baby is dead or the mother is at risk, but if the mother was raped, then I say let the baby be! It had nothing to do with the rape.

Consider this: that baby that was subject to abortion could have been the founder of world peace, or ended world hunger.

~Raivyn~
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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 09, 2005 05:20 AM

It seems to me that those who oppose abortion talk about
the sanctity of life. Now I don't want to lump everyone
together, but since this is an issue of the Moral Righties,
I wonder how many of them also belong to the NRA or turn
a blind eye to various genocides going on in the world.

In otherwords, if you are against abortion but own a gun,
something is wrong. Unless you are totally a non-violent
person, campaigning against abortion can be quite
hyprocitical. I will hardly mention those militants that
think its ok to assasinate doctors or blow up clinics.

There are social issues here that being swept under the
table. If you take abortion away as right, cut social
support networks, keep minimum wage low, very soon there
will be an extremely poor under class that cannot take care of themselves. All these things are on the Republican agenda. If you want to force everyone to have their babies then you have to give them the means to take
care of themselves.

I think it was Mother Theresa who said something like:
"If you don't want your babies, give them to me". Thats
the idea! Offer a solution instead of saying you have
that baby, and by the way, you can work for $5 with no
medical coverage to raise the child.


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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
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Professional
posted February 09, 2005 08:04 AM

I dislike abortion, and I can't see why a woman would do that to herself without great reason.

My view is this: you can't just go out and have an abortion because you don't want the baby that was a mistake. It's your fault, you keep the baby.

But on the other hand, don't rule out abortion. Because what if a young girl is raped and she becomes pregnant because of it? I mean, if the childbirth at a young age doesn't kill her, she would have to live with a reminder of her abuse every day of her life.
In this case I would say that it is ok to have an abortion.

Maybe it should be taken to court to decide, lawyers pro and against the abortion should convince a jury of sorts as to whether or not the abortion is reasonable.
Like if they get a woman coming in saying
"I can't have a baby, I didn't mean to have him I thought I was on the pill!"
Then that's just not right.


And if the abortion is necessary, I say by all means use the stem cells for research.
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DoddTheSlayer
DoddTheSlayer


Promising
Famous Hero
Banned from opening threads
posted February 14, 2005 02:51 AM

On the question of at what point does a concieved child become a person with rights, i feel that this question is actually irrelevent since at any given point right from the moment of conception all of the unborn carry within them the blueprint that will eventually enable them to become a person.
From this perspective the question of rights comes into play from the moment the sperm connects with the egg and the whole proccess starts.
Lets not be forgetting that this is the way that every one of us starts out.

"Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing, as reguard the days when they were formed, and there was not yet one amoung them."

Psalms 139:16  New world translation.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 14, 2005 03:53 PM

LoL

Yes I'm sure the ancient hebrews were very much aware of a human embryo. They must have been highly knowledgable through the use of their advanced technology such as highly developed clay pots and water extracting devices(or perhaps their mules simply explained the process of egg and spermatazoan inutero fertilization). The mind wonders how such advanced technology existed back then!

Um...those new bible translations might be a tiny bit off-key; just a thought. I betcha bort would have a field day with this one.
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