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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 23, 2005 01:01 AM |
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Since Comrade Svarog's been sharing lots of fine socialist music with us, I will provide some anarchist music. 
Beginning with Citizen Kane, a young Norwegian punk band. Enjoy!
Citizen Kane - Rather Dead Than Cool
Another Norwegian punk band:
Dear John Letter - World Of Greed
And some more Dear John Letter:
Dear John Letter - Our Responsibility
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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The_Workers
Hired Hero
Red Menace of HC
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posted May 02, 2005 11:50 PM |
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Ah, for once, Terje has made a good post. Dear John Letter is indeed swell punk! 
Here's some more:
[url=http://www11.nrk.no/urort/user/song.aspx?mmmid=51179]Fence - I Want You To Believe[/url]
[url=http://www11.nrk.no/urort/user/song.aspx?mmmid=51935]Fence - Scorched Earth[/url]
Ska-like rock.
The lyrics to I Want You to Believe sounds promising, and besides, their singer looks like Castro:
EDIT: Fixed the url for "I Want You To Believe"...
Thanks, Comrade Svarog!
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Workers Of All Countries, Unite! 
...the ruling ideas are the rulers' ideas...
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 06, 2005 04:55 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 5 May 2005
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Heeey comrade Terje, exactly the type of music I gravitate to.
Hmm, maybe I should put on some more Cuban in the following days.
Edit: Just noticed that comrade terje didnt offer this sexy music, but his army of alter-egos, the Workers. These you get when you chop terje in little proletarian pieces and bind them together with a solid Marxist theory.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 06, 2005 03:36 PM |
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Quote:
Heeey comrade Terje, exactly the type of music I gravitate to.
Hmm, maybe I should put on some more Cuban in the following days.
Cuban... Me likes! Anyone heard about Orishias?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 06, 2005 11:23 PM |
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And since some people obviously doesn't understand the concept of a free, yet state-owned, broadcasting company, and that these companies do much good for a society, I'll try to clear this up:
The music's completely legal, as it has been submitted to an online music competition held by the Norwegian Broadcasting Company, by the musicians themselves. These musicians usually haven't put out so much as an EP yet, so by downloading these songs, you are neither "stealing" ("the concept of property is the greatest theft") nor supporting any major record labels!
EWDIT: Oh, while googling for "tom joad" (I heard his name in the Rage Against The Machine cover of Bruce Springsteen's "The Ghost Of Tom Joad" just last night), I found the most delightful website:
Toms place - for those who seek Peace and Justice
EDIT2: And while googling for something to use for my MYT contest, I came across this old classic. Cannot understand why no one's posted it before:
EDIT3: Ooooh, even more goody stuff, this time some Biblical quotes (sic!):
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away. (Luke 1:51-53)
And if your brother becomes poor, and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall maintain him; as a stranger and a sojourner he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or increase, but fear your God; that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit. I am the Lord your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God. (Leviticus 25:35-38)
The community of believers were of one heart and one mind. None of them ever claimed anything as his own; rather, everything was held in common. With power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great respect was paid to them all; nor was there anyone needy among them, for all who owned property or houses sold them and lay them at the feet of the apostles to be distributed to everyone according to his need. (Acts 4:32-35; see also 2:42-47)
The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me; he has sent me to bring good news to the oppressed, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to the prisoners; to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God (Isaiah 61:1-2)
Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.. (James 5:1-6)
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 07, 2005 04:57 AM |
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Amen! I think I'll become a Christian.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Fiend_Master
Hired Hero
Master of Hellish Chaos
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posted May 07, 2005 08:15 AM |
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Christianity is for capitalists.... (DAMN, that was a stupid thing to say). Anyway, I'm a devoted comrade. Used to live on kibbutz, until my folks lost faith. I'm not really a prolatarian, considering I do hightech. But i'm totaly with u!
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Death is my servant,
it paces with haste,
it cares not for your age,
for your sex, for your race.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 09, 2005 02:00 AM |
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Comrades, today is the day - 60 years since the glorious victory over fascism.
Death to fascist everywhere!
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 09, 2005 02:10 AM |
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Death to Fascists!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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The_Workers
Hired Hero
Red Menace of HC
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posted May 09, 2005 02:28 AM |
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And to their devious little brothers, the Capitalists!
"If you do not wish to talk about Fascism, you shouldn't talk about Capitalism."
"War is Capitalism with the gloves off!"
The day will come!
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Workers Of All Countries, Unite!
...the ruling ideas are the rulers' ideas...
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 18, 2005 04:12 AM |
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devil's advocate
I was chatting with my sister in law's dad the other night and he happens to be more conservative (capitalist) than I. He argued that big coorporations create jobs that help people in return by giving them money and a job.
I argued that the coorporations actually usually stomp on the workers and give them as low a salary as possible to take full advantage of profits.
He then said that in a Nation with little coorporations, the people are usually poorer than if the coorporations flourished. So he asked me the question: would you rather have a nation where everyone is poor and equal or where some get good jobs and some stay poor? He added that in today's world, the unions are everywhere and this helps people in coorporations even more and blocks coorporations from taking advantage of the workers.
I didn't know what to say after that and thought of posting this short discussion in this thread for my fellow comrades' feedback on this issue.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 19, 2005 03:10 AM |
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What seems to be the conflict there? You're both right.
Its true that corporations functioning in a capitalist environment expoloit the workers. Does that mean we're better off without any corporations? Well, the answer to that depends on how you define corporation. But if it means a big firm being a major player in some industrial area, certainly corporations (companies) are needed, because they represent wealth production. The problem arises when that wealth is distributed, and here you have ur point - that the income diffuses down the social layers only to a percent sufficient to keep the workers supply steady. In other words, the bare minimum. And even unions cant prevent that, because its every employer's right to determine how much he pays his employees, which is as high as to keep him from leaving, and as low as the amount of money that some other equally qualified worker would work for. In this sense, unions are only involved in controling the implementation of the laws which protect the workers (minimum wage, working conditions, lay offs, health and pension insurance...), but which are exclusively brought on a central level. Only another proof that without government intervention, the market isnt capable of creating a worker-friendly environment. Therefore, corporations themselves arent bad; its the way they are run in a liberal economy that is innately exploitatory, and can only be tamed by central government interventions, or ultimately by direct central government ownership.
Otherwise, its self-evident that where there are no corporations, the people would be even poorer than with them. But this dependancy is the very key, why exploitation is so difficult to win over; exploited people are volunteerly so, because they have no other choice. To answer that tick-question: I'd rather have a nation where everyone has a good job and is equal, meaning loads of companies run in a humane way; forced through the government.
And the last myth about unions around the world blocking corporation from taking advantage of workers. Here's their overall effect:
Its called the "champagne glass" effect and represents the distribution of world wealth. This is only a graph of incomes. Let me just say that if it was distribution of ownership graph, we'd call it "Umberella effect".
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 19, 2005 05:51 PM |
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Quote:
Therefore, corporations themselves arent bad; its the way they are run in a liberal economy that is innately exploitatory, and can only be tamed by central government interventions, or ultimately by direct central government ownership.
Personally, I tend favour a combination of worker control and government ownership. The government establishes the enterprise, and when they've injected the initial capital, the workers can take over control, but under rather strict government regulations.
One such regulation that I am a big supporter of, was "invented" and first used in Nazi Germany. It's basically just that the government sets a limit on the amount of the profit can be distributed amongst the investors; that a certain amount of the profit has to be reinvested in the company.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 20, 2005 11:11 PM |
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but then Terje, don't you think the workers, once they have reached the limit of income will stop working or not make extra effort?
Just wondering.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 21, 2005 12:59 AM |
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Why would they do that?
There are two things with your way of thinking here that I react to:
First:
You automatically adopt the "Manchesterian" view that workers, if they are given the chance, will stop working. That they are, at the bottom, lazy, good-for-nothing slobs that needs to be literally forced into working. But most experiences show that people need to have somewhere to work and something to work with. It simply isn't good for a human being to go idle.
Second:
What level of income?
It's not as if they will all be granting themselves six figure salaries, and as I said, the government will limit the amount of profit that can be extracted from the business. Also, if any of them decides that they will leave their work, they will no longer be co-owners of the business. The worker who takes over their old work, also takes over the departed worker's share of the firm.
Do lawyers stop working once they've become partners in their firms? No. Will workers stop working once they've become co-owners of their workplaces? I believe that they won't.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2005 01:05 AM |
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hmmmm good point. I was not implying that they are lazy, just that some people could argue that. But you have a good point.
I didn't mean to say that people at the core are slobs... sorry if I came out that way.
But to a certain extent, people will try to have the most for the least. In french we say "La loi du moindre effort" which translates into "the law of the less effort". I beleive that once profits are reinvested, production won't stop, you are right, but will diminish nonetheless because the money will not be going into their pockets. I wouldn't be suprised to see some people take more vacation during that time....
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 21, 2005 01:09 AM |
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Take more vacation? Tariffs would be as today; sure they could more easily obtain extra holidays, at least that's how it'd be if I had things my way, but there'd still be a limit to how much they could be on holiday.
Besides, if they'd be gone too often, someone else would come in and take their places. And if they were gone occcationally, the firm could hire unemployed workers until the normal employee returned.
Or something. 
Thanks for playing the Devil's Advocate, here Conan! Always useful when someone does that!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2005 01:14 AM |
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well, it was half the devil's advocate. I beleive in what I wrote, yet don't beleive that they would do absolutely nothing.
BUT
to comment on what you wrote, if 5 employees take vacation and the firm replaces with 5 others part time or what ever, then the firm is paying for vacation time on some employees and time on other for the same amount of work. This means half the production for the same amount of employees, which means that in your system, when the cap has been reached, production would be halfed...
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 21, 2005 01:16 AM |
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Hmmm. Good point, that...
Ah, but it is impossible to cover every possible event here, in such a discussion as this one. But still, you've opened my eyes to a new set of challenges (some would perhaps name them problems, but hey) tonight. I'm grateful for that.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2005 01:20 AM |
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wow, it's not everyday I make someone think!
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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This thread is pages long: 
