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| Thread: friendship? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted February 11, 2005 01:36 AM |
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Most of us are, yes. Or we're just listening to a good conversation on friendship. 
One thing I found surprising in your comments, Conan, was where you say that one shouldn't have to work at friendship. That's exactly opposite to what most people have told me. Could you explain a bit more?
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted February 11, 2005 01:56 AM |
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Another COnsis attack on a female lol.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2005 01:58 AM |
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I see where this could have been confusing 
I meant that you don't need to work to get a friendship. You don't want people to think you are in need of a friendship....
Once you have one, yes, usually you need to work at it a bit.
But to a certain extent; it's good to settle differences now and then, but to always work and to go to huge lengh to please someone in what ever kind of relationship is not a good thing. You don't want to be someone else's puppet.
One comment if I may: You said you are iffy with the trust issue. Consider that without taking any chances, you never get ahead. In the case of a friend you let in close to your heart, you risk alot I agree, but every bit of the friendship is worth the risk if you ask me. In the end, friendships are not that risky ... couple relationship (love) is far more risky!
Just make sure you don't go opening up your heart to fast and take it one step at a time
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 11, 2005 02:41 AM |
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I share Conan's opinion. U dont have to particularly try to be someone's friend. If you really like someone, it will come natural. If I dont really want to know what's someones life like, should I bother asking them that, cos i should be so ****in polite and friendly? sucks.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted February 11, 2005 03:05 AM |
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Okay, that clarifies things a lot. Thanks.
An additional complication might be the definition of "work." It's work for me to come out of my shell and, say, chat with the person sitting next to me in class. Social interaction is draining. For most people, it seems, social interaction is taken for granted, something they seek out often, and so opportunities for friendships arise naturally, as you put it. For an introvert, placing myself in that position is itself work. I got confused. Now it's more clear what you meant.
I can see how actively chasing someone to obtain a friendship would be unfortunate and possibly scary, especially to the one targeted. 
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Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 11, 2005 03:15 AM |
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Quote:
I can see how actively chasing someone to obtain a friendship would be unfortunate and possibly scary, especially to the one targeted.
nah.. people like being liked. if thats the fear that keeps u from making friendships, get over it, pronto. everyone likes when people approach them and make friends. actually the ones most likely not to want to be approached are other introverts, which makes me wonder: are introverts really not interested in making friendships, or are they just as interested as others, only not too familiar in the role of a friend maker?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted February 11, 2005 03:28 AM |
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My impression has been that introverts tend to have one or two very close friends rather than a more general circle. Introverts charge their batteries, so to speak, with alone time, while social time costs energy, so time is a valuable commodity to be given only to a select few. Most people, of course, are pretty balanced. I'm an extreme introvert. But that's why trust and taking chances and commitment are problematic -- even sounding out a friendship costs a good deal of invested energy.
I guess the unnatural aspect I had in mind is when one party is very interested in a friendship and the other is indifferent or even hostile, a la "The Cable Guy." And, as Conan says, Aura of Desperation is a spell one wants to avoid in social situations. If someone is looking for a friend, any friend, it's probably not so flattering to the person they're chasing. The friend-seeker is just looking to plug a hole in their own life, rather than seeking friendship because they actually like the friend...if that makes any sense.
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Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted February 11, 2005 03:34 AM |
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Work is not force times distance, or something you get paid for, but just doing something with the goal of gaining something else.
Examples:
You want to get from your house to university, so you bike there. That's work.
You go biking on a sunny day for the pleasure of it. That's not work.
You hang out with somebody, help them when they are in trouble, etc. for the sake of gaining or maintaining their friendship - that's work.
If you do the same as above for no purpose, but just because it's what you want to be doing at the time, it's not work. This last example is just how friendship should be.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2005 03:49 AM |
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Edited By: Conan on 10 Feb 2005
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Khaelo,
It's nice to be able to see inside a introvert's mind as you open yourself up as such. I never knew it was an energy draining thing to interact socially for introverts. Very interesting what you bring up. I've never been able to identify myself to one or another of the groups; some say I am extroverted (because I am more social then them) and some say I am to introverted (which cost me a job opportunity a week ago  )
Anyways, I just wanted to thank you for bringing that in the discussion, it really made me stop and consider your words. That does not happen often (more with Svarog... )
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friend-seeker is just looking to plug a hole in their own life, rather than seeking friendship because they actually like the friend...if that makes any sense.
It makes sense to me.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 14, 2005 03:11 AM |
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You hang out with somebody, help them when they are in trouble, etc. for the sake of gaining or maintaining their friendship - that's work.
If you do the same as above for no purpose, but just because it's what you want to be doing at the time, it's not work. This last example is just how friendship should be.
What a cold mechanistic theory...
Is friednship supposed to be work, an investment of good will for the future? Work requires effort, effort requires self-sacrifice. Victimizing one's self for the sake of building a friendship indeed promises security and support when the bad times come for you, but I personally dont look for that in a friend. Its as you said, I hang around with my friends for no purpose, it's because I like. (note it's not the same as "for no reason", as the reason is obviously that it brings me pleasure) And according to your definition that's not work and thats not how a friendship should be like. Disagreed.
When I do sacrifice myself for a friend, it's also out of love and I do it because I like doing it, not with the preconcieved idea that the sacrifice would somehow pay off later.
As for the introverts, I think I grasp the point why they find it difficult to make friends. As I understood, the initial contacts are exhausting and a bit scary, but after a while they feel comfortable once they are in the company of a true friend. (which is why they should give their best to make close friends asap and enjoy the time spent together)
But if they found energy-consuming every instance of social interaction with friends (including close ones) then they really dont deserve and shouldnt have any friends. Why bother about it really
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted February 14, 2005 06:12 AM |
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Edited By: IYY on 14 Feb 2005
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Quote:
Is friednship supposed to be work, an investment of good will for the future? Work requires effort, effort requires self-sacrifice. Victimizing one's self for the sake of building a friendship indeed promises security and support when the bad times come for you, but I personally dont look for that in a friend. Its as you said, I hang around with my friends for no purpose, it's because I like.
You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. What you are doing with your friends falls under the second section. As I said "If you do the same as above for no purpose, but just because it's what you want to be doing at the time, it's not work. This last example is just how friendship should be." Getting pleasure from it is not what I consider a "reason" in this case. Obviously, everything you'd do that is not work would be done for the reason of pleasure! If you were to use pleasure as a valid reason here, then playing the piano is work, as is painting and chatting on HC.
A true friendship usually is, and is supposed to be, just like that.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 14, 2005 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
As for the introverts, I think I grasp the point why they find it difficult to make friends. As I understood, the initial contacts are exhausting and a bit scary, but after a while they feel comfortable once they are in the company of a true friend. (which is why they should give their best to make close friends asap and enjoy the time spent together)
But if they found energy-consuming every instance of social interaction with friends (including close ones) then they really dont deserve and shouldnt have any friends. Why bother about it really
I don't think they find "energy-consuming" every instance as you say. I think the initial contact is sometimes hard to establish. I think (but am not sure) that a pure intro as Khaelo has defined herself, would find it nice to have some friends, but just can't get through the initial contact.
Most of us take this frienship thing for granted. Makes me realize how we should perhaps not take is for granted so much...
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted February 14, 2005 07:11 PM |
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For me, every instance of social interaction, even with family members, is energy consuming. (Not the case for more "normal" people, as far as I can tell.) But with people I know and like, the enjoyment of their company is worth the drain. The nearest analogy, I guess, would be playing a sport. It makes you tired, but you're still glad you did it.
That's also my answer to the problem IYY poses. If left to my own devices, I would be alone pretty much all of the time. But that's neither healthy nor a complete experience of life. It is work, effort, self-sacrifice to get one's butt off the couch and go swimming or dancing or whatever. Once you're into it, though, the effort doesn't make it less fun.
The inital contact is the hardest because I don't know if it will be worth it or not. Once the goodness of a particular person's company is established, that's not a worry anymore. I willingly spend time with them despite the effort -- that's a friend.
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Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted February 14, 2005 09:56 PM |
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Even sitting on the couch is energy consuming.
Think about all the little thangs you do in your time & how much time consuming that is
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 15, 2005 04:27 AM |
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I willingly spend time with them despite the effort -- that's a friend.
If you think about it, we all willingly spend time here despite the effort. So, we are friends then.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted February 19, 2005 12:54 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 18 Feb 2005
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Conan Caught My Ignorance
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It's cool to talk with HC friends because they are international and often certain topics come up for conversation that u've never had with RL friends.
I agree with Svarog very much. It's one of the things people couldn't do before the internet. Only people who had the money to travel outside of their country could talk to foreigners. I value this greatly because it makes me feel less like an American and more like a human being of the same planet.
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Since the internet friends are often international and you don't expect to see them in RealLife, you talk to them with stuff you wouldn't have talked to anyone else with, and you get impulses from other places.
Terje_the_mad_wizard hits the arrow's mark with his remarks here. People in my neighborhood and circle of friends almost never like talking about what's going outside of this small community I live in. The only thing they talk about is Iraq and how much they disagree with other people who live near them. But they don't talk about the murders of children in Beslan, the bombing of the train in Spain, the genocide in Rwanda, etc. Recently everyone only wants to talk about the tsunami. The point is real life communities have their own agenda of things to talk about and if you are like me, who likes to talk about many things, they walk away and ignore you once you've strayed from what the locals are discussing. It's as if you aren't important because you aren't talking about what they want to talk about. But the Heroes Community has so many people who don't live anywhere near me. I really like it because people like Terje_the_mad_wizard and Svarog can enter a discussion at any time and offer up opinions. This community isn't even half as linear as real life is. It's so much more open and welcoming, and it keeps me from falling into the trap of controlled media information. I don't have to wait until a bomb goes off in Macedonia to hear what some of the people are feeling over there. I can simply ask Svarog and he would gladly tell me. That is invaluable in my opinion. It's all part of breaking free of each our own monopolized associated presses.
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Online friends in my own opinion are more valuable to me as they honestly don't have to be your friend. They choose on their own accord to be there for you vs simply turning off their computer. As well as you choose to be their for them. (My point in this is that a real life friend may at times feel like they have to be there for you when there are times that they would rather be doing something else; but since they are there in person they don'y have that easy out.
In today's harsh society, friends are made by a lot of people based upon What they look like, How they dress, Who their friends are, Where they live, etc.
Could there be a better quote? I really like the way AzureMajesty puts my feelings into words.
All that jazz about introverts is nonsense in my opinion. I'm not going to waste my time trying to get them to open up only to find out they have some weird psychosis that requires the filling of a motherly or fatherly void. It's a sick Freudian nightmare and I refuse to play emotional nanny to wackos.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted March 03, 2005 05:17 AM |
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It just occured to me that I no nobody on HC. I mean I have never met any of you in person, I don't know how you act, your perceptions, and reactions to things. Everyone of you could interpret my posts differently than meant, because you have no idea who I am in RL.
I consider you all my friends, but I don't know any of you.
Just occured to me(I guess I'm a little slow )
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2005 05:38 AM |
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One of my best friends, maybe even my best friend is an online friend. We expect nothing from each other...sometimes we go ages without speaking due to time restraints yet I know she is always there and always will be, same with me for for her. Physical contact means little really...nothing would ever change between us if suddenly that was a factor and if I got to meet her in rl that would be fantastic. Tho 12000 miles is a long way
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Myctteakyshd
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted March 03, 2005 06:29 AM |
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Anyways you have to have alot money to even visit Australia wait i mean Austalia .The I in it too hmmmm.........
Last time I looked, was hundreds just for 1 way trip & taking the boats even more so orless you got the cash, I wouldnt take the trip there hehe.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 03, 2005 06:13 PM |
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* Is it possible to have real friends online? What differences, if any, are there between online friendships and real life ones?
I have a lot of friends online who are every bit as dear to me as the people i can see face to face. I don't believe that just because you cannot physically be with someone, that you cannot have a tangible connection with them.
The main differences I find are in how you actually get to being friends. In RL you are generally in a situation with someone where you are doing something, the interaction involves some sort of outside influence that relieves some of the pressures of one on one interaction. Online when you start chatting, all you've got are words - sure you can play games (Heroes), and thats where most of my best friends have come from, but for the most part if you're on a chat program or message forum, you really only have the words between you. I think that because of this we tend to learn more about each other online than we would IRL - if you find yourself staring at a blank screen with a curser blinking at you, you may be more inclined to ask questions about the person you're talking to that you normally wouldn't.
The thing about internet friendships that I find the most difficult, is the helplessness when you know your friend is in need. I've had too many times when friends have lost loved ones, or just been a full on ****** situation and it's felt as though it would be everything if for just once you could reach out and hold the person's hand, or give them a hug or just be there. However to some extent you can pick up a telephone and give a ring, which helps a bit
But before I sound like I'm too down on distance I have met people online that I would never have met otherwise, and that's just an amazing thing. As its been mentioned before the opportunity to learn about other people and other cultures is really a blessing. And in some situations the distance helps some people to open up, and be the person that maybe they've always been inside - but are too afraid to show IRL. I know I have already met quite a few people like that, and to an extent I fall into the same catagory. Not in that I'm a different person, but in that things I likely couldn't express to someone if I were looking directly at them - I can easily put into words behind the safety of my monitor.
As for the question about what makes a friend - I don't know how you could begin to classify that. I think there are different kinds of friends , if you're meaning like a 'best' friend, I believe it just develops in time. It happens through learning about who a person is, and showing them who you are. it happens with trust, and like in any relationship there is a risk there. If you want that kind of open relationship you have to know that you can get hurt - people will lie and misrepresent themselves sometimes - but that will happen whether you are online or face to face.
In my own experience I have been hurt pretty bad a few times by trusting too much, but if I were to have closed myself off and not trusted people because of that I would have missed out on some of the best friendships that I have in my life. And those people are the ones who have seen all of me, lol, the ugliest most neurotic, sometimes nasty, sometimes whiney, sometimes weepy me - and they still stick around in spite of it - and they know that I love them for it.
And the last question, what is expected of a friend? Simple answer to me is nothing. Friendships don't come with expectations or strings, they just are - and when you've got one you should cherish it, no matter if you ever stand face to face with the person.
One question I've always wondered about online friendship, is how 'chemistry' works online? What I mean, is that there are some people that I feel I immediately click with. One message and I feel instantly comfortable talking with them, whereas with other people I will be guarded and need to take time to get to know them before I will really open up. I've never understood how that happens.
[edit] oh yes, and btw Azure Majesty wasn't kidding about that phone list! I had heard rumours about how them Southern ladies can talk and it's all true! We've logged many hours! *grins* also, for those of you who haven't talked with her yet, she has the coolest accent hehe and she really does call ya 'hun'
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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