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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 (30) 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted February 14, 2008 01:40 PM

Anyone know how many delegates one can "own" from winning in Texas and Ohio?
Seems these 2 states are the only chance left for Hillary right now.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted February 14, 2008 02:22 PM
Edited by Minion at 14:23, 14 Feb 2008.

The March 4 contests in Ohio and Texas have a combined 334 delegates at stake. Hillary's last firewall in a battle that has tipped toward Obama. Pennsylvania would be the next big battleground on April 22, with 158 delegates at stake.

Not only does she have to win in Ohio and Texas, but she can´t afford loosing Pennsylvania either.

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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted February 14, 2008 06:37 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 18:40, 14 Feb 2008.

RE; Florida & Michigan

mvassilev:

It's not fair to Obama and Edwards, who made good on their agreement not to run in those states and to withdraw their names from the ballot, when Hillary Clinton just then went right on ahead and did it anyway.

On the other hand, I agree also that it's not fair to the innocent voters.

Mvassilev & Consis:

There's only one reasonably fair solution: a caucus re-run, which, by the way, will probably fare well for Obama since Edwards is now out, Obama's numbers keep climbing and undecided voters will likely make the results in those two states much more favorable to him than they would have to begin with if they'd all remained on the ballot.

I think this would ultimately be very fair.  If they re-run Florida and it tips to Obama, then Florida's inexplicable clout will ripple on through the nation like it always seems to. Clinton brought this one on herself by, well, cheating.  
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted February 14, 2008 06:41 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 18:45, 14 Feb 2008.

NEWSFLASH

...Could be the beginning of a trend?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/14/664722.aspx

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2008/02/clinton-loses-nj-superdelegate.html
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted February 17, 2008 03:17 AM
Edited by mvassilev at 03:22, 17 Feb 2008.

Beware the Obama cult of personality.

What does the average Obama supporter know about Obama? Only that he's black, not Bush, and very charismatic. Also, HE STANDS FOR CHANGE AND HOPE! What does he think about education? The average supporter has no idea. The economy? A blank stare. Health care? Uh... So, what's so good about him? HE STANDS FOR CHANGE AND HOPE!!! AND WE CAN DO IT!!!

Pathetic. This is the basic mentality of his average supporter. I'm not saying that Obama doesn't have stances on the issues, it just that he never talks about them. All he does is say, "Yes, we can!"

As Joe Klein of TIME said, "The Obama campaign is all about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."

Remember, there has been a great amount of charismatic leaders in the past. Need I remind you that things didn't turn out well that often.

It frightens me. It just frightens me how blind many of his supporters are. They're treating him like he's a living god. Or even like he's the Democratic Ronald Reagan. If he said, "Let's kill everyone's firstborn! For change!" his supporters would cry, "Yes! Anything for the God of Change!"


That said, I guess I'm supporting Obama now, since Ron Paul has no chance. But, if you support Obama, make sure it's because you agree with his policies, and by policies I don't mean "Change, Hope, and an African-American in the White House."

I hope that his supporters change their reason for supporting him.
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 17, 2008 07:11 AM

There is only reason I support Obama.  Simply because I am against all the others.  McCain is just another member of the 'old boys club'.  Another rich white male, woohoo.  Been there done that (every president so far in fact).
For Clinton she has a couple strikes against her.  Big Mouth Bill is one, think somebody should clue him in that HE is not running, SHE is.   Second she can't seem to get her stories straight or make up her mind.  (She voted for the war, but now suddenly she is against it). And lastly because she voted for the war.

Now if voting for a third party canidate would actually do any good, I would.  Heck, throw out the only naturally born citizens rule and lets get Arny baby in office.  .  So, my vote goes to Obama simply because he is the lesser of the current evils.
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 17, 2008 07:37 AM

(@Mvass, not Mytical)

I'm not an Obama supporter, but what's wrong with standing for change and hope? If he has a following and people believe in him, that's called leadership. Leadership is a very important quality in a leader, would you agree?

Yes, I suppose you can compare him to a Democratic Ronald Reagan, and the feelings in the country are similar to what they were when Reagan took office. You use sarcasm, but there's a lot to the quality of charisma and leadership. But the two people were opposites in more ways than the obvious left/right difference. Reagan was viewed more as the wise elder and father figure. People might not have followed him blindly, but they definitely had respect for him. Obama on the other hand is not a father figure, but more of a peer to the young.

The situation in 1980 was one of a nation that had lost it's identity, both as a nation, and as individuals. We had just gotten over the Vietnam era and total rebellion and loss of faith in government or any other established institution. The loss of identity and collective feeling like $*** was worse then than now, but we had the two "buffer" presidents of Ford and Carter who basically gave the nation a chance to take a deep breath.

Realistically, when people are feeling down and begin to question who and what we are, more than anything else they just want something/someone to make them feel optimistic and good about themselves.

Things will take care of themselves, but people want someone to tell them that. They want someone whom they believe. It's not so much the "person" making the change and making things better, because the president doesn't really have that kind of power. It's the believe in the person that's important. When people believe things will get better, they get better. But when people believe things will get worse, they will get worse.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 17, 2008 07:48 AM

It's like Bush.  I know it's unpopular to say (or even think) but I think he did as good as job as could be done.   At least in the circumstances.  The only thing I have against him is the fact that once we learned it was a mistake, instead of admitting that he got all stubborn and became 'the decider'.  That and the Patriot Act.  Bleh.  Still, the house and senate COULD stop the war.  All they would need is a 3/4 vote.  So it is not all him, despite what people think.
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 17, 2008 08:16 AM

I give Bush credit for nothing but being an idiot. Just about anybody could have done better than him.

IMO, the Patriot Act was nothing but one step closer to a police state where intrusion of rights are justified by a banner for "national security". Good thing I rarely fly any more because I would go to jail before I allowed a random search of my person at an airport without a warrant.

As for starting/stopping the war, it boils down the the War Powers Act as far as I know. The first big misunderstanding is that "Bush" started a war. Bush CAN'T start a war. No president can start a war. The president can ONLY start a war with permission of Congress.

Stopping the war is unclear, IMO. The War Powers Act is vague on this. The act makes it clear that the president needs the permission of Congress to start a war. And it's clear that he must keep them informed on the progress of the war. But it's unclear as to whether he needs permision of Congress for the continuation of the war. (just my interpretation of the War Powers Act, not anything official)

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 17, 2008 08:24 AM
Edited by Mytical at 08:25, 17 Feb 2008.

Well technically it isn't a war.  A war is between two nations (as explained to me by somebody).  So, in order to keep it going, yes they need the support of congress.  We will agree to disagree about Bush.  I think he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Though maybe not the brightest, and a little stubborn.

Edit : I agree 100% about the 'patriot act' however.
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 17, 2008 08:35 AM

LOL, writing serious stuff in this thread and doing Tweety and Bullwinkle quotes via HCM is giving me whiplash

LMAO

IMO, ALL threads need to lighten up every now and then....

Tweety Bird for president.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 17, 2008 08:41 AM

To quote some words of wisdom told to me (by somebody who will remain anon).  It is easier to condemn one person then many, or to do something about it.

Now on a lighter note.  My serious prediction for President is...

Obama will gain most votes, most normal delegates, but Hillary will get nomination do to superdelegates.  Hillary will probably win the presidency.

Now my dream results.  Congress is thrown out, lobbist are shot in the street , and the following occurs.

The house is populated by Chimpanzees.  Each has two buttons that votes yes or no, but same color and size.

The senate is populated by lab mice.  They have a maze they have to go through, one exit is yes, the other no.  Rewards are given equally whichever they choose.

The new president is ..... Michael Jackson's nose, but MJ is not allowed on the premises.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 17, 2008 01:08 PM

Quote:
There is only reason I support Obama.  Simply because I am against all the others.  McCain is just another member of the 'old boys club'.  Another rich white male, woohoo.  Been there done that (every president so far in fact).
That's not a very good reason to support him (IMO). I advise people not to care what candidates' backgrounds are. Just make sure you agree with them on the issues. The issues are the only thing that matters.

Quote:
Heck, throw out the only naturally born citizens rule and lets get Arny baby in office.
I agree.

Quote:
I'm not an Obama supporter, but what's wrong with standing for change and hope? If he has a following and people believe in him, that's called leadership. Leadership is a very important quality in a leader, would you agree?
There's nothing wrong with standing for change and hope, other than those are completely meaningless and empty words. Obama gives the impression of being hollow. Leadership is only means to an end, means to getting into office. Leadership alone, however, means nothing.

Quote:
Realistically, when people are feeling down and begin to question who and what we are, more than anything else they just want something/someone to make them feel optimistic and good about themselves.
Well, um... That's how Hitler came to power.
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted February 17, 2008 02:40 PM

It is the same in nearly every election in modern countries. the average supporter of ANY candidate knows nearly nothing about their programs. They do like them coz of their looking, their "aura", their way of speaking or just because all other candidates are morons.

Or you really think the average supporter of McCain knows more about him?

You really think the supporters of J.F.K or of Bill Clinton at their time knew anything more about their programs? I bet not.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 17, 2008 05:21 PM

The average McCain speech contains far more substance than the average Obama speech.

Obama speech: What started as a whisper in Iowa, has become a movement in the whole of America. A movement for change! And, though the cynics said we couldn't do it, hope proved to be more poweful!

McCain speech: My friends... I have to thank Phil Gramm, Lindsey Graham, Jack Kemp, and Joe Lieberman for their support. They refused to raise the white flag of surrender. My friends... I believe that the transcendent challenge of the 21st century is the struggle against radical Islamic extremism. And I am the conservative who will do it. And, my friends, we can do it better if we sometimes work with the Democrats, like I did on McCain-Feingold and McCain-Lieberman.
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted February 17, 2008 07:35 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 19:37, 17 Feb 2008.

Angelito is correct.  Most modern American voters only have a glimpse of what their chosen candidate's platform actually details.  This is because they expect the candidates to tell them in sound-bite debates and speeches, in a couple of sentences or two, what the candidate's position is on issues.  Not only is this impossible given the complexity of the issues at this point in history.  It is also usually very misleading and tends to result in broken promises.

Obama's positions on issues are mostly too complicated to accurately portray in such soundbites, so he focuses on what he CAN relay and leaves the research to people who are serious.  His primary message is that if the country is not re-united, then all the policy positions in the world are worthless because they will never be implemented by a divided Congress/Constituency.

Also, my experience with Obama supporters is that they usually have some pretty clear answers to the question "why Obama?"  But then I live in Colorado...

If you want to know his positions and plans, then do your homework.  Go to the link below and click on "issues."

In the meantime, the following is one of my campaign documents, some very simple reasons why I support him:

________________________________

FIVE REASONS TO SUPPORT BARACK OBAMA
IN THE SPRING 2008 PRIMARIES


Obama Precinct Captain
Precinct 7212230001
Coloradans for Obama

The following are the thoughts and opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the Obama Campaign.

No. 1  OBAMA OUTPOLLS THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN MOST OF THE GENERAL ELECTION TRIAL HEATS.  Sen. Obama also tends to garner a larger margin of the moderate vote than the other Democratic candidates in most of the general election trial heat polls, as recently reported in http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1404.  Those polling results consistently suggest that Sen. Obama is the Democratic Party’s best chance to avoid a repeat of the 2004 presidential election. He is respected by Republicans and Democrats alike, and is gaining an increasingly large support network of Republicans, Moderates and others.  

No. 2  OBAMA IS UNIQUELY QUALIFIED AND POSITIONED TO ELIMINATE THE CURRENT PARTISAN CONGRESSIONAL STAND-OFF.  Perhaps the single most paralyzing element in American Government today is the polarization of Congress that prevents effective work on bi-partisan solutions to the host of real-world problems currently afflicting this country.  For several years we have not had a President of the United States.  We have had a President of the Republican Party.  

We desperately need a President who is respected by Republicans as well as Democrats, not one that the Republicans in Congress will rally against.  Obama is widely known in Congress as a consensus builder with unique skills in depolarization.  He is a uniting, de-escalating force.  His unifying skills and cross-over appeal clearly provide the greatest potential for breaking the current Congressional deadlock so that our government can get back to a state of productivity and real representation of its constituents. Obama represents the opportunity for us to once again have a President of the United States of America, not just of one party or the other.

No. 3  OBAMA POSSESSES THE GREATEST POTENTIAL FOR SUCCESSFUL INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMACY.  Perhaps our greatest, most pressing issue is the degree to which our standing and reputation have suffered worldwide during the last few years. We must improve our credibility in the eyes of the international community, or we will continue to stand largely alone in the struggle to reduce the threatening forces we face from international terror organizations, global warming, and a host of other major global challenges.  

Repairing our international relations will require an individual with profound diplomatic skills; the kind of persona that the leadership of other countries will find strong yet acceptable and persuasive.  Sen. Obama possesses precisely this rare kind of persona.  It is the same ability that enables him to function so effectively in the otherwise dysfunctional atmosphere in Washington.  It is easy to imagine this man walking into virtually any stateroom in the world, and having a similar effect on the world leaders with whom we need most urgently to establish and improve diplomatic relations.   Obama presents the unique potential for making the withdrawal of our troops safe and feasible by engaging and rallying the nations surrounding Iraq, brokering a durable peace in the Middle East, and fostering regional stability that serves the interests of all.

Obama’s ability to strategically analyze international issues is truly impressive. By means of example, one need recall no more than his amazingly precise prophetic position from the beginning that invading Iraq would almost certainly amount to a foreign-policy disaster, lead to civil war in Iraq and fuel the flames of Al Qaeda.  He did just that in the following clip:

http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

Finally, Obama has demonstrated time and again throughout his career that he possesses the judgment and leadership skills to surround himself with the brightest, most experienced experts in critical areas – AND THEN LISTEN TO THEM.

No. 4    OBAMA WRITES HIS OWN SPEECHES.
It is tempting to say, ‘Nuff Said.  But many people do not realize that Calvin Coolidge (1920’s) was the last president to write his own speeches.  Since then, speech-writing has largely or completely been left to the purview of word-smithing “experts.”  So virtually all of the speeches you’ve been getting from your presidents for over eighty years have actually been someone else’s words.

The revelation that Obama speaks his own words is a particular surprise given the consistent gravity and profoundly moving nature of his speeches.  In fact, it was the 2004 Keynote Address to the Democratic National Convention that catapulted him into the national eye, which you can view in its entirety at:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/convention2004/barackobama2004dnc.htm.

No. 5    OBAMA CAN PREVAIL IN THE PRIMARIES -- IF YOU ATTEND YOUR PRIMARIES AND PRECINCT CAUCUSES. Many people feel that their vote is only one of three hundred million and cannot make a difference.  But the current race is so close that literally every vote counts. The significance of just one vote takes on a whole new meaning when you realize your vote might be one of a tiny handful that decides the nomination.  Sen. Obama can win, and you can help him do that if you do a couple of very simple things:  First, find your precinct polling or caucus location by calling your county clerk’s office.  Then, GO TO YOUR PRIMARY OR YOUR PRECINCT CAUCUS ON MARCH 4, 2008 AND VOTE!  - And bring family and friends if you can.  Better yet – multiply your voting power by becoming a volunteer – join the website at www.barackobama.com – and smile – you’re helping to make history!
_________________________________

Now, if you're seriuous about learning more deetails, go find out for yourself:

barackobama.com (Click on "Issues")

Best of Luck!

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 17, 2008 07:54 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 20:12, 17 Feb 2008.

Quote:
Obama's positions on issues are mostly too complicated to accurately portray in such soundbites
They're no more complicated than any of the other candidates'.

I'm not saying that Obama doesn't have stances on the issues. (And I agree with most of them.) It's just that he hardly ever talks about them.

Quote:
No. 1  OBAMA OUTPOLLS THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN MOST OF THE GENERAL ELECTION TRIAL HEATS.
We should vote for those we agree with, not jump on the bandwagon.

Quote:
No. 2  OBAMA IS UNIQUELY QUALIFIED AND POSITIONED TO ELIMINATE THE CURRENT PARTISAN CONGRESSIONAL STAND-OFF.
And being rated the most liberal Senator is going to help him... how?

Quote:
Obama is widely known in Congress as a consensus builder with unique skills in depolarization.
So is McCain.

Quote:
No. 3  OBAMA POSSESSES THE GREATEST POTENTIAL FOR SUCCESSFUL INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMACY.
Well, I wouldn't go that far.

Quote:
No. 4    OBAMA WRITES HIS OWN SPEECHES.
WOW. Most important issue ever. Knocked me off my feet, this did.[/sarcasm]



6 reasons not to support Barack Obama.

1. He supports raising the minimum wage.
This will hurt our workers and raise unemployment and actually cause jobs to go overseas.

2. He wants to make it illegal to hire striking workers.
To borrow Ross Perot's phrase and put it in a different context, "Giant sucking sound." Hear that? It's the jobs moving overseas.

3. He wants amnesty.
This is basically rewarding the illegal immigrants for breaking the law.

4. He says he'd bomb Pakistan without their permission.
Way to hurt our image worldwide even more.

5. He wants to lengthen the school year.
Our school year is long enough. We need a fundamental change in our education system, and this isn't it.

6. He doesn't really understand foreign policy.
Namely, he doesn't understand that our actions in the Middle East caused 9/11.
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted February 17, 2008 08:19 PM

Quote:
They're no more complicated than any of the other candidates'.
Agreed.  What I'm saying is that he doesn't sound-bite them because to do so (pretty much for everyone) is typically misleading to the populace.

Let me give you an example:  Clinton keeps saying that she's simply going to pull the troops out of Iraq.  She doesn't talk about how she's going to do this without destabilizing the region.  She simply says what she knows people want to hear at an emotional, gut level.

Now you tell me, how is she going to do it?  Do you really think she would have the wherewithall to negotiate at any meaningful level in the Middle East?  To broker a political upsurge, as it were?  Now Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying it's going to be easy for anyone, including Obama.  But he's clearly got her outstripped in statesmanship skills.  He's a male for another thing, and it is what it is over there.  Anyone who believes that Clinton has as good of a chance in this region is simply not being realistic in my estimation.  Read the newspapers from over there. Moderate Middle Eastern constituencies throughout the region are watching this campaign on pins nad needles; Obama casts a huge and growing popularity throughout.  If we elect him, the governments of those constituencies will be under substantial pressure to work with him.  The same thing simply cannot be said of Clinton.

Anothe example:  Obama's health care plan.  I've studied it enough to just barely understand the particulars.  Health care is an area of specialty that some (like my husband, who works in the area) have spent an entire career mastering.  There's no way I could ever soundbite it or explain it to the average person because it's complicated and I don't really understand it myself.  But my husband (remember, we're talking about a reformed Republican Obama supporter) finds many of the aspects of Obama's plan intriquing, innovative and the plan in general having a great chance at being successful.  Clinton says "Universal Healthcare -- for everybody!"  How's that so different than "Healthcare universally available and affordable for everybody"  which is what Obama says.  The real difference is that Clinton's is compulsory, while Obama's is available but we can stick with what we've got if it's good.  Freedom of choice versus no freedom of choice.  Other than that, I'm not getting any more details from Clinton's speeches and debate comments than I am from Obama.  Are you?

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 17, 2008 08:21 PM

Quote:
1. He supports raising the minimum wage.
This will hurt our workers and raise unemployment and actually cause jobs to go overseas.


excuse me, what do you mean by "causing jobs to go overseas"?
Do you mean that they'll send production to cheap Poland-like countries were people will do it for a few cents? Well they already do it for like 1/20 of US minimal wage so I don't think it would really affect things. If you meant something different, sorry, my english fails at times.

Quote:
2. He wants to make it illegal to hire striking workers.



Weren't you against striking in general?

Quote:
5. He wants to lengthen the school year.
Our school year is long enough. We need a fundamental change in our education system, and this isn't it.


How long your school year is? Asking out of pure curiosity. And what does Obama intend to do with it?

Quote:
6. He doesn't really understand foreign policy.
Namely, he doesn't understand that our actions in the Middle East caused 9/11.


I really hope you do not believe in the Ben Laden myth..

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 17, 2008 08:33 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 20:35, 17 Feb 2008.

Quote:
I'm not getting any more details from Clinton's speeches and debate comments than I am from Obama.
Well, I am.

All of the Democrats say that they're going to pull the troops out of Iraq. At least that has some meaning, unlike "change and hope".

Regarding Obama's health care plan. I haven't really looked into it, but it seems pretty complicated. But the health care solution doesn't have to be.

Quote:
excuse me, what do you mean by "causing jobs to go overseas"?
Some of the jobs that aren't outsourced yet will be outsourced.

Quote:
Weren't you against striking in general?
I think that it should be perfectly legal to strike. But I think that employers should also be able to fire strikers any time they wanted to.

Quote:
How long your school year is?
180 days, and 75% of it is a waste of time.

Quote:
I really hope you do not believe in the Ben Laden myth..
What's this Bin Laden myth you speak of? Do you know why 9/11 happened? One of the reasons given was because we had a military base in Saudi Arabia and because we invaded Iraq in Desert Storm.

Do you know why we have such poor relations with Iran? It's because we overthrew Mossadeq and installed the Shah. Then we propped him up. When they overthrew him, naturally they weren't happy with us.

Do you know why so much of the Middle East is dying to kill us? It's because we do stuff like establish Israel, prop up Musharraf, and basically tell them how to live. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us.
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