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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 This thread is 90 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 50 60 ... 66 67 68 69 70 ... 80 90 · «PREV / NEXT»
JapanGamer
JapanGamer


Known Hero
posted November 01, 2008 12:40 AM
Edited by JapanGamer at 00:42, 01 Nov 2008.

On a more simple note, My vote is in.. I fear what the world will turn into because I fear the devil will assassinate Our next president, or some crazy man will. I fear this is my last halloween ever.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted November 01, 2008 01:42 AM

Oh the drama.

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nocaplato
nocaplato


Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
posted November 01, 2008 02:09 AM

I don't have time to make a full response right now (off to trick-or-treat with the kids soon), but I would like to say... thanks mvass for posting solid responses.  While I disagree with you on many points, I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful responses.  

Also, I'd like to point out this discussion originated, not as a strict economic discussion about local v. mutlinational.  My original premise was, and still is, that Obama is not the 'socialist' as has been sounded by the McCain campaign.  Delving into a discussion of local capital and what is good or bad for the everyday business just goes to show the complexity of the issue and drive the point home that simplistic labels are far wide of the mark when we discuss serious economic issues.  

I'd like to be able to claim the socialist label is a dead one, just by the fact we're having this debate.  I haven't been taking a socialist position in any of this... nor do I believe Obama's position to be socialist.  On the other hand, as soon as I make the claim, someone is likely to jump in here and argue that I'm horribly wrong and all this is somehow actually a debate about socialism.  

Anyway, gotta go trick-or-treat.  I'll respond in full when I have some more time.

Happy Halloween all!

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 01, 2008 02:40 AM

Of course Obama isn't a socialist. He is closer to being a communist than McCain is. On the other hand, McCain is closer to being a Nazi than Obama is, so I guess it balances out.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted November 01, 2008 07:45 AM

We're doomed either way.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 01, 2008 09:44 AM

@mvass
Fact is that the US spent 2 and a quarter TRILLION dollars in 2007 for Health Care:

2.260.000.000.000 $

Yes, that's true. It's an interesting figure because it's nearly 7.500 $ PER PERSON in the US.

It is the biggest industry, bigger than the industrial military complex with Iraq war, bigger than everything else. Costs are rising faster than inflation than everything else, predictions are bad, costs will rise further.

It's the goose that gives golden eggs for the industry. I don't want to discuss this here, since it is off-topic for this thread, but you should just take a minute and try to figure out what that actually means.
It starts with getting over the message that the natural state of things is to feel good all the time and if that's not the case something is very wrong and has to be treated, at least with some pills...

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 01, 2008 09:27 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 21:27, 01 Nov 2008.

Here I agree. We need to stop overperscribing. "My kid can't sit still for a little bit? There must be something wrong with him! Instead of trying to be a parent, what should I do? I know! I'll take him to the doctor!" "Ma'am, your child has ADD. Here are some insanely expensive pills." "Thank you! Greedydoctor*mumblemumble* the government should pay for this."

Before we start blaming the doctors, we should first have the people look at themselves.

And I understand that we're spending a lot of money on health care, but it's because there isn't enough competition. Insurance companies dampen competition. Socialized medicine isn't the answer.
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JapanGamer
JapanGamer


Known Hero
posted November 01, 2008 10:02 PM
Edited by JapanGamer at 22:42, 01 Nov 2008.

Can I watch the elections online? if so where?
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted November 02, 2008 01:15 AM

CNN, FOXNews, MSNBC, etc, etc.
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Wrath and raving I will not stop
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 02, 2008 02:05 AM

How will more competition help with overprescription? (which is hardly the sole blame for health care problems in the US)
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John says to live above hell.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 02, 2008 02:29 AM

It won't. But it'll drive costs down. Overprescription will need a cultural change.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 02, 2008 02:55 AM

Increased competition would just lead to bigger and better and more expensive prescriptions etc.
Who can do the best boob job or get the kid to shut up.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 02, 2008 04:18 AM

No, it would lead to less expensive prescriptions.
Mother: Dr. A said my kid has ADD, but I want a second opinion. He said it's cost $500 dollars to treat him.
Dr. B: Dr. A is wrong. He doesn't have ADD, he has ADHD. And that only costs $450 to treat!
Mother: Sounds good!

It doesn't fix the problem completely, but it does make things better.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 02, 2008 09:56 AM

You are also forgetting one thing.  For the most part, doctors do not try to cure, they try to treat the symptoms.  Why?  Because if they cured things like cancer, the common cold, etc..once they were paid for the cure..that would be it.  They would make no more money, because..you are cured.

Let us say that a cure for cancer is found.  How much would it have to cost for the companies to break even as compaired to if they just treat the symptoms?  I have been beside a person being treated for cancer.  There is the long hospital stays, the medicine, the chemo.  Now in a way he was 'lucky'.  The cost was taken care of by the VA, because he had served his country.  But..we added it all up.  5 months, over 30-40 thousand dollars worth.  If he had lived years..imagine the cost.

I am sure there are people out there who are searching for cures.  Just as I am sure there are doctors who actually try to cure people and not just treat the symptoms.  However, they are too few, too underfunded, and too 'stretched thin'.

Companies do NOT have your best interest at heart, they have their bottom line at heart.  Government does not have your best interest at heart, they have getting reelected at any cost at heart.  Some people just don't realize this.  They think we are living in some utopia where people actually look out for each other.  A few still do, but they are too few and too far between.

Though my vote will probably be for Obama, I am not an idiot.  I know he won't be able to do a tenth of the things he promises.  I know that he really isn't a much better choice then McCain.  I will vote for him because he is the lesser choice of two evils, and the only other choice there is.   Period.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 02, 2008 10:02 AM

You people are missing the point completely. If you say, overprescription is a problem that it's the same kind of problem than overconsumption. Which is a problem of capitalism in general, because businesse wants to make money and they can do that only be selling stuff and ever more stuff.
I repeat, health is a BUSINESS. Pharmaceutical industries want to make money - they don't want to heal people in the first place. In that way they are like, well, a shoe manufacturer. A shoe is a shoe and you basically need a pair for bad weather and one fot good weather or something like that, but you will obviously make a lot more money if you can get over the message that there are a lot more differences in shoes, that there are different colors and materials and forms, and if instead 2 pairs of shoes everyone will have 5 or 6 or 10, business is expanding. So they try to develop stuff that sells, and if it doesn't sell out of the box they have to find reasons for people to buy it. They advertise their products like everyone else. Pills against headaches, syrup against coughing, lotions against pimples, you name it.
And then the question is what would be covered by a health insurance. However, the insurance company doesn't care much, since they simply adjust the premiums depending on what IS covered.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 02, 2008 10:10 AM

Pretty much what I said, only you said it better (as usual) JJ.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 02, 2008 10:19 AM

(Are you saying that they don't want to cure cancer?)


Saying that doctors treat symptoms but don't try to cure is a ridiculous and outlandish statement.

I  mean, I don't know what kind of doctor you go to, but every time I've been, I've received a cure.


But that's offtopic.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 02, 2008 10:28 AM

A cure is perminent, treating the symptoms is not.  Let us say you went in for the flu.  They 'cured' your flu?  No..they treated the symptoms until it went away on its own.  Or else you would never get the flu again.  EVER.  That is the difference between curing and treating the symptoms.

Now I am not talking about scrapes, bruises, etc.  Your body does most of the curing for you there, they just make sure it doesn't get infected and treat any pain until it does the work.  I am talking about things like the cold, the flu, cancer..etc.  I can guarantee, you have never recieved a 'cure' for that.
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted November 02, 2008 10:29 AM
Edited by Azagal at 10:37, 02 Nov 2008.

Quote:
I am sure there are people out there who are searching for cures.  Just as I am sure there are doctors who actually try to cure people and not just treat the symptoms.  However, they are too few, too underfunded, and too 'stretched thin'.

You are awefully generalizing my dear... The vast majority of doctors out there are doing there job and will use everything they have to cure you. The Hippocratic Oath isn't just words. You have no idea how insulting your sentence is towards (edit: the vast majority of)doctors.

I won't discuss your "Companies are evil" standpoint since I don't have enough "proof" that shows that people are trying to treat aids, cancer, etc. You may be right that companies try to make money but research is being made on how to treat cancer, aids, etc.

Quote:
I am talking about things like the cold, the flu, cancer..etc.  I can guarantee, you have never recieved a 'cure' for that.

Ever heared of a cure for a cold, flu? Yep, there is none. Oh right that's because they are not looking for them on purpose....
I think you are missunderstanding the term "cure". "Cure" doesn't mean that you'll be immune against that specific illness for the rest of your life, to cure means to heal you from the specific illness you have. And once it's gone you are healeld. That doesn't mean that you can't get it again.
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"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 02, 2008 10:37 AM

Perhaps.  It is not worth arguing about, however.  You believe what you wish.  There are exceptions to every rule.  When a cure for cancer is found, or the common cold, or the flu...then I will retract my statement gladly.
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