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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 (72) 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 05, 2008 04:38 AM

We may all have 'buyers' remorse before it is over.  However, the Dems have a majority.  They CAN change things if they want..now if they WILL is another matter.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted November 05, 2008 04:56 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 05:00, 05 Nov 2008.

since this thread is redundant anyway...

Quote:

1) That's not what Matical implied. What she said was that doctors do not have an interest in CURING their patients, they have an interest in TREATING them.

What about:

For the most part, doctors do not try to cure, they try to treat the symptoms.  Why?  ...They would make no more money, because..you are cured.

-Mytical

This is simply wrong.
Any doctor who lets this thought even cross his mind is completely screwed up, and I assure you that they are an insignificant minority.
There is money in curing just as much as there is in treating, the money lies in DOING WHAT IS NECESSARY AND RIGHT.

They do not give false treatment in any instance where they could, if they wanted to, cure the ailment in order to keep the patient coming back and the money coming in.

They have enough patients as it is.

The way for a doctor to earn more money lies in the overall payments of the system, not the number of sick people in the world. There will ALWAYS be enough sick people in the world, in the foreseeable future anyway, so the income of a doctor is not at all proportional to the number of sick people. So whether or not they cure or treat a person has no effect on their income, what's more important is that they do the right thing, what is required, and as such become a better, more respected doctor who can then be paid more as a result.

There are millions of diseases that doctors cure on a daily basis.
In fact the only basis for Mytical's argument seems to be cancer and the flu, two diseases out of a veritable plethora of them in the world.
When a cure for cancer is found, or the common cold, or the flu...then I will retract my statement gladly.
What about the cures found for so many other diseases?
Do they not count?
Do cures have to be found for every disease before you will believe that doctors aren't all trying to keep you sick so they keep their job?

There is no pressure for work as a doctor. Anywhere in the world.

Saying that they choose between treating and curing in order to earn more money is simply a blatant lie based on nothing but negativity and if you or Mytical actually gave it some proper thought besides trying to turn this nonsense into an issue then you would see this too.


Quote:
2) The pharnacy is NOT independent of doctors and claiming that they are is indeed absurd.

I didn't say that, I said that the pharmacy is independent of the doctors.
If the pharmacy wants to create a drug that stops coughing and market it such that people want it, this is not the work of the doctors.
It's a product as with any other.

I, for one, have never received codeine products as cold treatment.
When I do have a cold I do take over-the-counter stuff to aid with the symptoms of the cold to make my body's immune system cope with the recovery process in the most comfortable way possible.
Because for the cold, like many diseases, the best way to overcome it is to let the body's immune system destroy it. This creates symtoms like coughing etc that can be treated. A cure is either not necessary because the body will get over it, or it doesn't exist, as with the flu.

The fact that you get the cold again and again is nothing to do with doctor's greedy evil plans, it's to do with the mutation of the virus itself such that the body does not recognize it's antigens once it comes into contact again. But believe me that medical scientists (not general practitioners) are working towards a cure for this.

On the other hand, the hole in your evil doctor conspiracy, is the vaccine which, like a cure, prevents you from getting that disease ever again, the key difference being you never have to have it. The reason that you can still get the cold is explained above, you can only be vaccinated against one disease and the cold or influenza virus mutating makes into basically a different disease.

It has nothing to do with making money.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 05, 2008 05:33 AM

JJ, time to let this die.  It's obvious that nothing we say will make a difference.  Let it go.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 05, 2008 05:34 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 05:35, 05 Nov 2008.




glad i put together a cogent rebuttal, then...

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 05, 2008 05:42 AM

Quote:
Quote:

1) That's not what Matical implied. What she said was that doctors do not have an interest in CURING their patients, they have an interest in TREATING them.

What about:

For the most part, doctors do not try to cure, they try to treat the symptoms.  Why?  ...They would make no more money, because..you are cured.

-Mytical

This is simply wrong.
Any doctor who lets this thought even cross his mind is completely screwed up, and I assure you that they are an insignificant minority.
There is money in curing just as much as there is in treating, the money lies in DOING WHAT IS NECESSARY AND RIGHT.

Err, no. The money lies in doing what is UNnecessary and not wrong. With right and wrong being not so clear-cut most of the time. And when it is NOT clear-cut what do you think will tilt the balance?
Quote:

They do not give false treatment in any instance where they could, if they wanted to, cure the ailment in order to keep the patient coming back and the money coming in.
"False treatment". Such a big word. No one said or even implied that. We were talking about OVER-treatment in cases where there is no CURE. Is that so difficult to accept?
Quote:

The way for a doctor to earn more money lies in the overall payments of the system... So whether or not they cure or treat a person has no effect on their income
Well, that's strange, don't you think? I mean, usually people get paid for successful work, or are they? That used to be the case in China as well, mind you, where doctors were paid only for CURING, NOT for TREATING. Interestingly enough that seems to have been a rather fruitful practise for Chinese medicine.

Quote:
what's more important is that they do the right thing, what is required, and as such become a better, more respected doctor who can then be paid more as a result.
Huh? You mean people would be tipping their docs for doing what they are supposed to do, because they do it with some degree of competence?
Quote:

There are millions of diseases that doctors cure on a daily basis.
Err, no. You still didn't grasp the difference between curing and treating. Doctors don't cure. The body cures. Doctors either help curing or repair trauma damage. There are some extremely vaulable findings in medicine that are helping. Vaccination is one, based on the fact that you can strengthen the immune system by infecting the body with a weakened version of the germ or virus so that the body will develop antibodies. It has nothing to do with "doctor's work", it's applied science. As are all vaccinations.

Vaccination is PREVENTION, though, not CURING.
Quote:

Saying that they choose between treating and curing in order to earn more money is simply a blatant lie based on nothing but negativity and if you or Mytical actually gave it some proper thought besides trying to turn this nonsense into an issue then you would see this too.
They, don't choose, dammit, because they cannot choose, since they cannot cure. Only treat.


Quote:
2)I said that the pharmacy is independent of the doctors.
If the pharmacy wants to create a drug that stops coughing and market it such that people want it, this is not the work of the doctors.
It's a product as with any other.
Exactly. It IS a product like any other and it's advertised like any other and marketed like any other, but unlike any other you cannot just buy it in a shop, you need a prescription. Now, I didn't know that doctors are supposed to prescribe what "people want". So the pharmacy is dependent on them, whether you like that or not.

Quote:

The fact that you get the cold again and again is nothing to do with doctor's greedy evil plans, it's to do with the mutation of the virus itself such that the body does not recognize it's antigens once it comes into contact again. But believe me that medical scientists (not general practitioners) are working towards a cure for this.

On the other hand, the hole in your evil doctor conspiracy, is the vaccine which, like a cure, prevents you from getting that disease ever again, the key difference being you never have to have it. The reason that you can still get the cold is explained above, you can only be vaccinated against one disease and the cold or influenza virus mutating makes into basically a different disease.

It has nothing to do with making money.

On the contrary, it has ANYTHING to do with it? Try to think a bit more logically. If a vaccine against cold or influenza makes no sense because there are so many around and mutating quite fast - then why advertise ONE? I mean, if there are 100 different ways for your house to get damaged by natural desasters, some having 2% probability, others only a half, with desasters changing each year as well, would you make an insurance against one of the 2% desasters, paying money for it?

Another more significant indicator for overtreatment seems to be the immunity germs develop against antibiotics. By treating freely with antibiotics, even if not strictly necessary the docs have managed to create more resistent germs immune against antibiotics, a direct consequence of the general tendency to overtreat.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 05, 2008 05:45 AM

Quote:

glad i put together a cogent rebuttal, then...

You should visit a doctor.

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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 05, 2008 05:50 AM

Quote:
"False treatment". Such a big word. No one said or even implied that. We were talking about OVER-treatment in cases where there is no CURE. Is that so difficult to accept?

Who was?
You are, now?

I was saying that Mytical's statement was wrong.
You brought up overtreatment.
If the people want overtreatment then that's what they get, but that's not the topic of discussion.
I even quoted and highlighted what we are talking about, which is Mytical's point.


Quote:
Well, that's strange, don't you think? I mean, usually people get paid for successful work, or are they? That used to be the case in China as well, mind you, where doctors were paid only for CURING, NOT for TREATING. Interestingly enough that seems to have been a rather fruitful practise for Chinese medicine.

This is absurd.
Just let all cancer patients die then?
Let viruses take their toll and just leave broken bones to heal by themselves, without treatment?

Quote:
Huh? You mean people would be tipping their docs for doing what they are supposed to do, because they do it with some degree of competence?

Not tipping, but advancement in the industry.
Again income is not related to number of patients.



Quote:
Doctors don't cure. The body cures.

If I go to a doctor with athletes foot and he gives me antibacterial, he has cured my athletes foot.
Nothing to do with my body's immune system.

Do I need to list the millions of other diseases doctors cure?


Sorry, this statement is false.


Quote:

Vaccination is PREVENTION, though, not CURING.

So?
It still prevents the patient from needing to come back, which is the premise of the argument that returning patients brings more money.



Quote:
They, don't choose, dammit, because they cannot choose, since they cannot cure. Only treat.

Then we are in agreement. Why are you arguing with me?






Overtreatment is another issue altogether.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 05, 2008 05:51 AM
Edited by Mytical at 05:56, 05 Nov 2008.

Ok.  Here is the cold hard reality.  When you go into a hospital, bleeding, and some guy who flashes a wad of cash who has a bruise on his arm goes before you JUST because you are poor and have to rely on a medical card...what do you call that?

My father went to a hospital FIVE times with a horrible rash, shakes, and a fever (the last time was 102.2).  He saw 5 doctors (different) who gave him itch cream.  ITCH CREAM.. when he went to a doctor we knew our whole life, he was lifeflighted and told he was lucky to be alive.  All because they didn't want to take the TIME to figure out what it was.

In my family, I've seen somebody waste away due to cancer.  I've got N.A.S.H which was only found out by a freak chance.  Even though when I first got it I was getting sicker and sicker.  The doctors gave me things like nexium, and prilosec, and other acid blockers..didn't bother to even CHECK to see if something more serious was going on.

I had a friend who died from a 'simple cough', because nobody bothered enough to see if it was just a 'simple cough'.  Go to a blasted free clinic for a visit.  See what you see there..and tell me it doesn't turn your stomach.

Now as I said.  Doctors do the best they can with what they have.  But they are taught to treat, not to cure.  Yeah, there have been a few diseases cured.  Never said their wasn't.  I will say it.  Doctors are a good thing.  BUT..and this is the big one..too many of them hear a cough, or sneeze, or whatever and perscribe for it without knowing IF anything is behind it or not.

Edit : Oh and by the way..if caught in early stages Non-Alcoholic Straeto Hepititis is treatable.  Mine was not caught in the early stages.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 05, 2008 06:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Well, that's strange, don't you think? I mean, usually people get paid for successful work, or are they? That used to be the case in China as well, mind you, where doctors were paid only for CURING, NOT for TREATING. Interestingly enough that seems to have been a rather fruitful practise for Chinese medicine.

This is absurd.
Just let all cancer patients die then?
Let viruses take their toll and just leave broken bones to heal by themselves, without treatment?

You are calling 5000 years of successful medicine absurd? My impression is that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:
Doctors don't cure. The body cures.

If I go to a doctor with athletes foot and he gives me antibacterial, he has cured my athletes foot.
He has treated it.
Quote:

Do I need to list the millions of other diseases doctors cure?
It might be better if you studied the meaning of words instead.
Quote:

Quote:

Vaccination is PREVENTION, though, not CURING.

So?
It still prevents the patient from needing to come back, which is the premise of the argument that returning patients brings more money.
People who come for vaccination are no patients and not sick or ill.
Quote:

Quote:
They, don't choose, dammit, because they cannot choose, since they cannot cure. Only treat.

Then we are in agreement. Why are you arguing with me?
If you agree with me, why do you claim that docs CURE?
Quote:

Overtreatment is another issue altogether.

Go and read page 68 again.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 05, 2008 06:13 AM

The election is over and this has went WAYYY offtopic .  Perhaps it is time to close this thread.  ((Feel free to start a 'Doctor' thread or something similar)).
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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posted November 05, 2008 06:39 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 06:46, 05 Nov 2008.

no, it's over, don't close the thread.
I thought that Joker wished to partake in a discussion, but I was wrong, he wants to argue semantics.

Quote:

You are calling 5000 years of successful medicine absurd? My impression is that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't know what I'm talking about?
You say doctor's cannot cure.

doctors were paid only for CURING
Doctor's do not cure.
????

You contradict yourself by saying that in history Chinese practicioners were not paid unless they cured.

Your argument is flawed, but I will ignore it.

I wasn't calling chinese medicine absurd, because your misunderstanding of the word "cure" lead to you being confused.
I was saying that doctors were not paid to treat patients, that would be absurd.


Quote:
He has treated it.

Quote:
If you agree with me, why do you claim that docs CURE?

Quote:
It might be better if you studied the meaning of words instead.

I love sarcasm



cure  (kyr)
n.
1. Restoration of health; recovery from disease.
2. A method or course of medical treatment used to restore health.
3. An agent, such as a drug, that restores health; a remedy.
4. Something that corrects or relieves a harmful or disturbing situation:


?
What is your definition of cure?


Quote:

Go and read page 68 again.

Relax cracker there's no need to be rude.
Mytical made a statement.
I rebutted it.

You joined in talking about something entirely different and irrelevant to the discussion, and also made the claim that doctors don't cure, which is relevant to the discussion, granted, but it is also wrong.

They do.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted November 05, 2008 06:44 AM

OBAMA WON!!!!!
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Baklava
Baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted November 05, 2008 06:48 AM

Seems so.
Cool.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted November 05, 2008 06:50 AM

I am happy Obama won..but I do hope we don't end up with an Emporer Obama
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted November 05, 2008 06:54 AM
Edited by angelito at 06:55, 05 Nov 2008.

This is not the thread about american doctors' way to earn money,
nor about chinese medicine. Feel free to put these posts into a new topic, but they won't stay too long here. Even though the president is elected (not really, but on jan 20th), this thread still can go on. ON topic.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 05, 2008 07:04 AM

Right. Sorry for bringing it up in this thread.

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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted November 05, 2008 07:10 AM


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Minion
Minion


Supreme Hero
posted November 05, 2008 07:14 AM
Edited by Minion at 07:30, 05 Nov 2008.

USA has an intelligent leader... it seems as if it is a miracle!

Congratulations USA!!

A new dawn of American leadership is at hand
-Barack Obama
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Totoro
Totoro


Famous Hero
in User
posted November 05, 2008 07:17 AM

Quote:
I am happy Obama won..but I do hope we don't end up with an Emporer Obama

I don't think Obama has enough guts to begin wars or other aggressive actions in foreign politics.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 05, 2008 07:24 AM

Guts? You are joking, right?

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