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| Thread: A noobish thing to do is......... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted September 28, 2007 12:07 PM |
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i usually head straight for capitol, and getting experience out of the chests. 
this is "classical" noobish approach i would advise you to play and learn from players that have high rank in WCL. Make saves at end of each your turn, open them AFTER the game in Multiplayer->HotSeat mode. You will understand how more skilled opponents move and why "going for money" strategy fails >95% times...
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disciple
Hired Hero
The Utopian Doctor
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posted September 28, 2007 01:04 PM |
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this is "classical" noobish approach i would advise you to play and learn from players that have high rank in [url=http://randommaps.siteburg.com]WCL[/url]. Make saves at end of each your turn, open them AFTER the game in Multiplayer->HotSeat mode. You will understand how more skilled opponents move and why "going for money" strategy fails >95% times...
hmm ok that sounds good, i'll keep it in mind, i haven't played anyone over the net but on impossible against the AI its what i do 
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted September 28, 2007 01:36 PM |
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Actualy Disciple, any game online with experimented players result in an impossible rush against the ones that havent played online.Belive me,I know. Due to the fact I always play Castle or Tower I last a little longer that some other experimented ones but the fact is that everyone will rush and hack and slah everything trying to get to you when you are with your guard down. I never understood why is soo important to rush against everyone Heroes 3 is a game of tactics.
Also, some experimented players dont play nicely -the ones that host the game is making the map all of other wants except the begginers. I have said I would like an Island map or something and the other Oh no no no Xl or L and without watter. Thats because they can reach you faster when they are on terrain.
If they are three of four or no matter how many players are they will rush you first for getting your castle. If you are staying in the castle you dont have a change so everygame is resumed in several weeks where you can basicly conquer the most you can and then prepare for the many scouts and seconday heroes that will decimate your army(therefore put a heroes in front of your castle and put all the trops 1 1 1 1 and give an attack magic to it.) I have played 3 maps or 4 I cant remember corectly. In 1 map I was rushed before building genies. In the other 3 I have been resited longer since nagas come into play and even Angels(with caslte). Sure is fun to play online but the players imedialty know you are a begginer and will rush you no matter what.And that's a shame cause Heroes 3 unniverse should be for all to learn. But hey...maybe I will get an experienced player once ^.^.
See ya.
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sag
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted September 28, 2007 01:44 PM |
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look into saves here for examples of interesting games of best players: SAVES
it's fun to develop fast and win fast. it's big fun to win over good players
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 28, 2007 01:59 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:00, 28 Sep 2007.
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You may be right about some "cherry pickers" we have on Gamespy, but this is not how the majority acts in the h3 online community.
Most of the players are fair and honorable.
There are a few reasons why the games are played like u experienced them lately:
1. Time consuming. We almost never play water maps online, coz this just lengthens the game. There is nothing special in sailing through tons of water and finding hundreds of small islands with 1 pile resource on it. A game on normal templates last 3-6 hours. This is about the time most players have per day to finish a game. And this is the main goal of online players, especially if u play for tournaments --> start AND finish a game in one session. 200% (impossible mode) is what u play when u play against the comp. But the only reason is: the comp is soooooo weak, every other difficulty level is boring. And 200% on Xl is also boring, coz the human palyer has so much time to develop, so he will overtake the comp players pretty soon. If u want some kind of challenge against the comp, try to play vs 7 allied comp players on M map on 200%...
2. The thing u call "rush" is nothing else but the difference between multi player and single player. While a single player runs around with 1, 2 or max. 3 heroes, an online player always tries to have as many heroes as possible. Heroes 3 is a tactical game, but the goal is not collecting every single pile of resource on the map, building up every town on the map, visit every stat booster on the map, kill every stack of neutral monster on the map....no...the goal is: Kill your opponent!
The earlier I get to him, the lesser time he has to build up his hero / army. This has nothing to do with playing vs noobs. This is the way you play vs any opponent!
3. Most of the newbies change their play style after a few games, and they learn a new kind of game that way. They will learn to do fights very early with low amount of army they would never have thought of being possible.
That's why I repeat it all the time: Try to get 2vs2 games going with experienced players. Watch them during their turns. See how the move and place their heroes. How they scout their area. What kind of fights they take with what kind of army. You will improve very fast that way.
Just some hints as usual...no need to follow them, but it would help...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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disciple
Hired Hero
The Utopian Doctor
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posted September 28, 2007 02:04 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You may be right about some "cherry pickers" we have on Gamespy, but this is not how the majority acts in the h3 online community.
Most of the players are fair and honorable.
There are a few reasons why the games are played like u experienced them lately:
1. Time consuming. We almost never play water maps online, coz this just lengthens the game. There is nothing special in sailing through tons of water and finding hundreds of small islands with 1 pile resource on it. A game on normal templates last 3-6 hours. This is about the time most players have per day to finish a game. And this is the main goal of online players, especially if u play for tournaments --> start AND finish a game in one session. 200% (impossible mode) is what u play when u play against the comp. But the only reason is: the comp is soooooo weak, every other difficulty level is boring. And 200% on Xl is also boring, coz the human palyer has so much time to develop, so he will overtake the comp players pretty soon. If u want some kind of challenge against the comp, try to play vs 7 allied comp players on M map on 200%...
yeah i might give that a go i'm not very fond of the water thing, and i find navigation quite a waste of a skill slot even with lots of islands (its as if 3DO made water to be annoying )
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2. The thing u call "rush" is nothing else but the difference between multi player and single player. While a single player runs around with 1, 2 or max. 3 heroes, an online player always tries to have as many heroes as possible. Heroes 3 is a tactical game, but the goal is not collecting every single pile of resource on the map, building up every town on the map, visit every stat booster on the map, kill every stack of neutral monster on the map....no...the goal is: Kill your opponent!
The earlier I get to him, the lesser time he has to build up his hero / army. This has nothing to do with playing vs noobs. This is the way you play vs any opponent!
mmh good point.
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3. Most of the newbies change their play style after a few games, and they learn a new kind of game that way. They will learn to do fights very early with low amount of army they would never have thought of being possible.
That's why I repeat it all the time: Try to get 2vs2 games going with experienced players. Watch them during their turns. See how the move and place their heroes. How they scout their area. What kind of fights they take with what kind of army. You will improve very fast that way.
Just some hints as usual...no need to follow them, but it would help...
yup sounds good, i've just got to fix up the gamespy thing and i'm on
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted September 28, 2007 02:20 PM |
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Dear Angelito ,maybe you are somewhat right but I have too. My late gamespy games on Heroes and magic 3 where soo unpleasent that i dont know If I can ever will find nice players to play with.
For the other...honorable players? Where? I would love to meet some.
Water...water should be on all maps. Water is a part of the map.No water means they can reach you faster,they will level up faster and they will get to you faster. Every map will become a hide and seek where begginers are staying more in theyr territory than travel to another.
The other thing is that on no watter ,all kinds of portals and dungeon exists are on map therefore a reason in plus for rushers to enter in them all and see if they can reach you faster. On impossible settings they will creep out everythig that can give them money then instead of bulding in castle something they will buy another hero or buil quick made armies to invade you.Also some of them are abusing some tactics like gremlins rush or balista heroes. That is not too good because expert players should give others a chance at least when they are begginers.
In the other 3 maps I had played and not being rushed early one(I presume they dont find a fast way to get to me) I was mostly sitting in my castle and not adventuring too much. They split up armies and such just to make you sit there. I was last one to be eliminated by the expert player. This that was a good map? Because they make it how they want to?
Final note. All maps must be created by RANDOM. Not they way you want. Random water random terrain and all. But since I cant change anything is quite logical that all online games are rush.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted September 28, 2007 03:48 PM |
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I have no words. That was just pathetic!!!
Angelito - dont try to open the eyes af all the people. There is always one, that think the whole world is wrong and he is right.
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disciple
Hired Hero
The Utopian Doctor
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posted September 28, 2007 03:50 PM |
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he does have some good points though
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted September 28, 2007 04:02 PM |
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I didnt see any good point.
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted September 28, 2007 04:04 PM |
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I have no words. That was just pathetic!!!
Angelito - dont try to open the eyes af all the people. There is always one, that think the whole world is wrong and he is right.
Phatetic? Is my opinion and I belive you should stay out of it. First play some online heroes then come here an post. Until then dont bother you dont even know me.
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2007 04:09 PM |
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Edited by ruho at 16:41, 28 Sep 2007.
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@Night_Heaven: About "rushing". I'm not sure what kind of games you exactly have had but it's not rushing when good players beat other players week 2-4 with lvl 10-20 heroes & huge army. It's just the way one must play if he to play well.
In large online gaming communities great number of players play against each other and different tactics are shared. Poor tactics lead to defeats and are rejected; good ones will prevail. The way you see other players "rushing" is just the tip of the ice berg of this progress.
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...Water...water should be on all maps. Water is a part of the map.No water means they can reach you faster,they will level up faster and they will get to you faster.
Well, basicly you are right, it makes them slower. But that doesn't
change the situation: the "single player" does his things slower too and will lose just the same way. Only slower.
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Every map will become a hide and seek where begginers are staying more in theyr territory than travel to another.
That's just what is wrong with single players play style: they don't do things fast enough but rather wait till they get better army and doing stuff gets easier. You said "Heroes 3 is a game of tactics", well there's surely plenty of tactics in H3, but if u think of their importance, and what will give you most advantage it all comes to speed (how fast you are expanding etc.).
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...On impossible settings they will creep out everythig that can give them money then instead of bulding in castle something they will buy another hero or buil quick made armies to invade you.
Seriously I was like  when I read that. Is there something wrong in that? I mean isn't that just what Heroes is all about?
Not building anything... You don't mean not building capitol asap? At least at latest versions hiring new heroes (and not building creatures) shouldn't help that much rushing someone.
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Also some of them are abusing some tactics like gremlins rush or balista heroes. That is not too good because expert players should give others a chance at least when they are begginers.
Ok, so u are playing some old patch. Gremlin rush doesn't work with latest patches. But I'm curious on how u can abuse ballista heroes?
I'm not sure what to answer to the other statement. Hmm... Well if the "expert" gives the beginner a chance and plays poorly, it prolly isn't very motivating for him. Maybe better option could be playing an allied game?
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In the other 3 maps I had played and not being rushed early one(I presume they dont find a fast way to get to me) I was mostly sitting in my castle and not adventuring too much. They split up armies and such just to make you sit there. I was last one to be eliminated by the expert player. This that was a good map? Because they make it how they want to?
Final note. All maps must be created by RANDOM. Not they way you want. Random water random terrain and all. But since I cant change anything is quite logical that all online games are rush.
I referred to the issue of the fist bold text earlier.
"All maps must be created by RANDOM. Not they way you want."
No, I don't think it's necessary 
Edit: Sry for the negative tone of the post but as you can see from liophys (who btw isn't the one who should play some H3 online) comment your post was pretty provocating. And the second one too.
It's just that "single players" come every now and then to HC and are shocked that Capitol asap & stuff isn't the best tactics and start to protest against it rather than trying to understand the more advanced play style. Some eventually begin to like it (the more advanced game style) and found the good old H3 again as a whole new game; others don't. But if one don't like it it's still not polite to claim that it's wrong and your way is right (though I feel that I'm writing this reply a bit same way ). Especially when you prolly can't have understood the reasons behind online playing style YET.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted September 28, 2007 04:18 PM |
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Yes, you are entitled to have an opinion, but it could be still pathetic
And boy - i have played online more, than you can imagine!!! Probably more than you have played single.
Your problem is that you perceive Heroes as a quest - fun game to kill time. And thats your mistake. This is strategy game and espetially when played between 2 humans the goal is (as Angelito said) TO KILL the opponent.
Heroes is very deep in variations game and there is a lot to do. The essense is (as Angelito said)to pick the important things from non important. Thats actually the skill.
And if leaving the nonimportant thing is what you call - rush, than - yeah, it is rush.
But if you complain about other rushing you and not giving you time to develope is like young chess player to complain why Kasparov beat him in 15 turns.
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted September 28, 2007 04:21 PM |
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Ha ha good points .About that thing is the fact that I have always bad luck at this no water maps.Always are 2 or 3 portals that have a road from them exacly into my castle. lol That is bad luck. And like that isnt enough...is subteranean gates that I found all the time and is quite hard to keep an eye on all.
On the other side of the facts is that online expert players are always playing fast and attack all buildings that give them boost of moneys and such(naga banks and dwarfs green things etc). The problem is that I cant find in my near vecinity such kind of buildings. And is not a problem that they appear fast in my territory, but the fact that they appear 2 or 3 diffrent heroes of diffrent players that I cant attack because If i left the castle another one will enter and took it. My question will be how can they purchase all those heores fast and still have good amount of money for armies.
The other thing about making random maps in the way expert players wish is the impossible map difficuly where you get no resources in day one. I know I always play that with A.I but the human players are just too good for me lol.
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disciple
Hired Hero
The Utopian Doctor
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posted September 28, 2007 04:24 PM |
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well i'd think they would buy cheap level 1 and 2 creatures, split them among the heroes perhaps (with help from dwellings along the way) and use the money to just continually purchase lower level troops?
i'm not exactly sure, but its possible
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted September 28, 2007 04:52 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, you are entitled to have an opinion, but it could be still pathetic
And boy - i have played online more, than you can imagine!!! Probably more than you have played single.
Your problem is that you perceive Heroes as a quest - fun game to kill time. And thats your mistake. This is strategy game and espetially when played between 2 humans the goal is (as Angelito said) TO KILL the opponent.
Heroes is very deep in variations game and there is a lot to do. The essense is (as Angelito said)to pick the important things from non important. Thats actually the skill.
And if leaving the nonimportant thing is what you call - rush, than - yeah, it is rush.
But if you complain about other rushing you and not giving you time to develope is like young chess player to complain why Kasparov beat him in 15 turns.
Now i saw your post. I was commentig to the other post . One thing I am not phatetic and I really apreciate if you would stop calling me like that for no reason. I guess I say my point quite good. Maybe I am not a rusher and maybe I dont know how to rush but Heroes 3 can be played on all kind of maps. And on some maps, some people cant rush like thay rush on no water maps.thats what I was trying to say. And you say is phatetic I said that. Thank you very much ....not...lol
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted September 28, 2007 05:17 PM |
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Well man, you are total begginer, you cant make basic stuff like geting naga bank and etc. And you are complaining about the abbilities of the others to do that quickly.
And instead of trying to see how they do it and learn it yourself, you start to find excuses and blame them to be "not fair".
Thats pathetic. Tha way you try to find the guilt in the others, and not to look at yourself first.
I suggest - try to play a little bit more games, with more people. See how they play, see other type of developements, see the other side of the game.
And than you come to speak again. Then you will have more objective opinion. But now there is nothing behind your words.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 28, 2007 06:19 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:22, 28 Sep 2007.
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Please try to keep that friendly tone in this thread.
And even if I know I can't convince every new H3 player, I will still try
Having a portal (2way monolith) in your area leading to your castle is not bad luck. All random maps are based on so called "templates". For online tournaments, there have been created a bunch full of templates which will create a map where every player has about the same map setup.
You either have a hugh starting area, with 1 or 2 extra towns, and a road into a so called "treasure area" (mostly desert), where the players will meet most of the time.
Or u have a smaller starting area and 1 or 2 extra areas, and the 4th area is a shared area with opponent.
You wont find an area which is directly connected with the area of your opponent without hugh guards (like "Blockbuster" template, where u could reach your opponent in 1 day....if there wouldnt be a horde of level 7 units blocking the way..).
So try to get a game going on those tournament templates, then u can complain about low amount of dwellings, boxes, conservatories, hives or utopias, but never about the map setup
P.S.: If u see me on Gamespy, just contact me for a game. I don't play newbies for points, but for having fun and maybe for teaching some basics (if the newbie is eager to learn something that is!)
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted September 28, 2007 08:56 PM |
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Liophy please give me a BREAK!!! Not that I will lisen to someone as rude as you.Doh
Angelito maybe is the way you are saying. However, I strongly belive that the random map generator needs some strong pacht or something. Maybe for you 2 or 3 portals isnt something bad because you basicly are an expert. But for me lol imagine 2 or 3 ways when the others can reach you in one or maximum 2 turns. Thats something is not balanced in maps. For example the random map will always put your terrain of the race that you are playing of. However,the roads either goes to another castle or in my bad case to some portals. Besides portals are the dungeon exits that I think the random generator makes them random.
My point actualy is taht I need more online gaming but without the basics when playing against expert players I wont have a chance. Butin Homm3 is enought place for everyone isnt it?
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 28, 2007 09:39 PM |
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I agree with Night_Heaven completely on this. In my opinion the way multi player games are played sucks. (different wording than NH used)
The way I look at it, if I wanted a rush rush rush game I'd play a real time game, not a turn based game. I play turn based because I can kick back and relax. If I want to pass by that crypt just because I don't feel like moving all my troops around and messing with it, I can pass it.
And using chaining to clear the map TOTALLY SUCKS BAD. Why should I do something that sucks so bad just so I can win a game? That's not any fun, it just sucks.
As far as I'm concerned the MP style of play has taken a game with a lot of strategy and variety and eliminated half the game. The idea of rushing the opponent is taking advantage of a weakness in the game. Winning the game doesn't necessarily mean superior game play. It only means superior at one specific style of play, there's a difference. And the random maps are designed to support this style of play. The main difference between the templates is richness and size of guards.
The games are always the same thing.....build as fast as you can, break the guard as soon as possible, grab a bunch of nice arts and maybe get some troops/XP/spells from a pan box. Then attack the enemy. When you have a game where a single day's difference breaking the guard can make such a big difference in who wins, then something is seriously wrong. That's not strategy, that's called hack and slash as fast as you can. And whoever is better at hacking and slashing will win more games.
And since a straight "break the guard, get some goodies" game is too much the same even for MP players, there are templates with *TWO* ways to get to the enemy. WOW, now that's variety!!! Or maybe on one template you hire 6-7 heroes on day one, and another template you hire 3-4 heroes. WOW, more variety. But the thing is, you know ahead of time approximately how many you'll hire. The whole thing is completely mechanical. No mater which template, it's still "clear the zone, break the guard, get the goodies, then attack".
Oh, I almost forgot one. Don't let the enemy know where you are or how strong you are. Yep, take the troops and arts from your main to make your hero faster and the enemy can't see you in the tavern. That's just as boring as moving troops around to clear the map.
In my opinion the main problem with MP is not really because it's MP, but because of tournament play. Players want these short games and place too much importance on winning instead of just having fun. I don't want to make it sound like I'm cutting down all MP people because of this. If that's what they enjoy, then great. But it's not for everybody. And too many players have this elitist attitude that they are somehow better. That's a total turn off in my opinion.
The play style is like taking a game of football (soccer) and changing the rules so the first team to score a goal wins. Yes, there is still some strategy, but most of the game has been eliminated.
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