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| Thread: Hit and run |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2006 10:05 PM |
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Hit and run
Imo the rule that gives the most disputes is the no hit and run rule. There is no clear definition of this rule. Therefore I would like people to post how they think the rule is and how they think it should be.
If you are not familiar with online games DO NOT post your opinion here unless you know for sure it has common interest.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 27, 2006 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
Imo the rule that gives the most disputes is the no hit and run rule. There is no clear definition of this rule. Therefore I would like people to post how they think the rule is and how they think it should be.
Definition is very simple:
Hit and run is, when your opponent makes a last hit or cast and runs away and you are pissed. 
Does make sense or?
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 27, 2006 10:31 PM |
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Everybody knows what a hit and run is... the only ones that need an exact definition in my expierence, were always the ones that tríed "to bow the rule" to get a win ...best example was Frank in Season 2 and 3 in my experience.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 27, 2006 10:42 PM |
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No such rule probably?
I am against many rules in online gaming. This one is among the ones I don't like. As for the interpretetation, the most common explanation that has been given to me is that when 2 heroes meet each other, the one that plays first can not use his speed advantage to cast a spell and leave the battle as soon as he uses a spell; meaning the defender must also have the ability to use a spell. After that, any hero may surrender/retreat. Of course, the attacker may also retreat in the first round if he doesnot use his speed-potential to cast a damaging spell.
I believe it is clear that this rule implies hitting by casting damaging spells. However it says nothing for situations like these (I 've never encountered it in practice though):
Say, you have 2 or more () stacks of Archangels vs your opponents army with top speed creature having speed strictly lower than the speed of the Archangels. Then you can hit with your first (N-1) stack(s) of Archangels and surrender after that hit while your opponent was never able to do something apart from retaliation ... So, for examples like this one I would like to hear some comments as well. Let's say you have infinite amount of gold to afford the surrender.
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The empty set
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted March 27, 2006 10:50 PM |
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The forbidden one
Your opponent attacks you when you near his castle with a phoenix, archangel or 7 fast creatures split into 7 groups and casts either an implosion or a chain lightning and then retreats, or if he knows for sure you can't kill him this turn he waits for the second casts a spell again and surrenders.
Buys his main in the tavern and hits you again and again untill his movement is all over.
The ones that are allowed
If you attack someone and he casts an implosion and than retreats.
The secondary defending hero:
Say you got Ciele in a tavern in a town that is about to be attacked, you buy her give her army and go to do some damage with DA magic arrow.
Or Solmyr that you had the patience to take him into all the spell power boosters on the map. A secondary hero hit and run is allowed in most of my games.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 27, 2006 10:52 PM |
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This is a very subjective rule. I don't think strict definitions like "you have to stay for at least 3 rounds if you did any damage" can be used.
* Say, your enemy catches you off guard and your main gets raped by round 2. Does this mean you can't retreat and you have to get your main killed and lose the game because "your army did damage on round 1"? IMHO such rule would make a great gift for those people who know how to utilize a 2-nd computer in a homm3 game.
* What if you meet early when noone has tactics, mass haste or fast troops yet? You can easily survive 3 rounds with only the slow crappy troops while pounding your enemy's archers with the big spells, then retreat on round 4, regain your mana and kill him with your main army.
Say, you formulate h&r as "you have to stay for at least 1 round".
* Should you be able to load your main with a bunch of useless slow troops with high HP that your enemy can not kill by round 2, cast 2 implos or chain lightnings, then retreat?
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 27, 2006 10:54 PM |
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Quote:
Definition is very simple:
Hit and run is, when your opponent makes a last hit or cast and runs away ......Quote:
@dimis make a guess which part you didnt read!?
...it surely includes what you did describe. Thats an old one and peeps did it with frenzy on the Archangels. My guess is they thought it is brilliant.
If you think "hit and run" is not necessary as rule then let us play (me castle, you stronghold)..i will give you your suckiest H3 experience ever!
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 27, 2006 11:04 PM |
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Edited by dimis on 27 Mar 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
Definition is very simple:
Hit and run is, when your opponent makes a last hit or cast and runs away ......Quote:
@dimis make a guess which part you didnt read!?
...it surely includes what you did describe. Thats an old one and peeps did it with frenzy on the Archangels. My guess is they thought it is brilliant.
If you think "hit and run" is not necessary as rule then let us play (me castle, you stronghold)..i will give you your suckiest H3 experience ever!
Well, I was writing a reply when you actually replied ... So, do I have an offer for a game (I prefer the other way around to distribute towns! ) or the recognition of the power of Castle?
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The empty set
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2006 11:15 PM |
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So Russ what would you do if you play a tournament game and your opponent hits you with implo round 1 and 2 and then retreats?
TNT you play a game where you are fortress and opponent dungeon. His main is now approaching your town with 1 black dragon and spellpower 25. Behind him is a chain of heroes. Close to your town is some nice statboosters that you dont want him to hit and what you dont know is that he has golden bow. Your army is much bigger than his and you have better attack and defence. Sadly you dont have shackles, red orb or recanters. What do you do?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 27, 2006 11:25 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 27 Mar 2006
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I'll quote Xarfax for you, maretti:
Quote:
Definition is very simple:
Hit and run is, when your opponent makes a last hit or cast and runs away and you are pissed.
I think he also made a very good post about some people always trying to bend this rule to get a win. I think my last post listed some exceptions to any strict h&r rule.
Now - I do not have a very good answer for your specific question. How would I deal with it? I would let him know that he broke a h&r rule. If he denies it and starts whining - too bad. The only way to avoid this kind of stuff is to only play people you know.
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fishjie
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 27, 2006 11:25 PM |
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Quote:
The forbidden one
Your opponent attacks you when you near his castle with a phoenix, archangel or 7 fast creatures split into 7 groups and casts either an implosion or a chain lightning and then retreats, or if he knows for sure you can't kill him this turn he waits for the second casts a spell again and surrenders.
Buys his main in the tavern and hits you again and again untill his movement is all over.
hahaha us single players use that all the time. go with 1 arch. cast, surrender, rehire, rinse and repeat. a ton of money and spell points later and the computer is owned. but didn't they patch this so that when a hero surrenders, he starts with 0 movement points or am i mistaken.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2006 11:39 PM |
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Sorry fishjie, but before you posted I edited my original post and added this:
If you are not familiar with online games DO NOT post your opinion here unless you know for sure it has common interest.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2006 11:44 PM |
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Russ, Xarfax definitions is good but its not quite accurate enough imo.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 27, 2006 11:50 PM |
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Quote:
Russ, Xarfax definitions is good but its not quite accurate enough imo.
Well, it is the best h&r rule I've seen so far and it is very hard to bend.
If you want - give me your definition of h&r and I'll find a way to bend it. And please be realistic - don't post a lawyer essay - post something that you would type to your opponent before the game. (I really doubt that even if you'll have a patience to type a 5000-word definition before every one of your games, your opponent will have the patience to read it.)
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2006 11:55 PM |
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My problem is I dont have the perfect definition. Thats why I started this thread to try and come up with something that could be usefull. I think its hard to make a definition that dosent contain a certain amount of common sense but we will see where it ends.
At least this thread might result in some people finding out that their definition isnt very good afterall.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 28, 2006 12:02 AM |
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I have a bit different view refering to hit and run to be honest.
For me, h&r only counts for the first round. You canīt blame someone, who casts (or hits) in round 5 or 6 or 7 and then flees. What if one of them has no spellpoints at all? There other one is not allowed to flee then? Coz his troops prolly canīt reach other side of battelfield in 1 turn...hmm?
One hits hard with Implo, the other one with his troops (coz of mass haste for example).
I would surely not be happy if someone implodes me the first rounds and then flees, but i would also not be very happy, if my opponent has 3 times the amount of level 7 units in his army coz of external dwellings (while i had none), but i have found tome of earth and have immens spellpower, but he carries red orb. Itīs about the same...he can hit me hard with troops, while i canīt hit him hard with my implo.
There will always be exceptions if u make a rule too complicated.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2006 12:10 AM |
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Quote:
Everybody knows what a hit and run is...
That statement seems to be proven wrong allready.
Angelito, I dont think a round 1 rule is very good. Just bring 7 fast single units that can survive round one and then cast implo or something else round 2. This situation is exactly what the no hit and run rule should prevent.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 28, 2006 12:57 AM |
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Edited by dimis on 27 Mar 2006
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What is ethical/honorable/blah...blah...blah... ?
Quote:
... This situation is exactly what the no hit and run rule should prevent.
I think this leads you again to the definition given by Xarfax above. But how do you decide "pissing"? Or is it a matter of ethics and you want an 'honorable' fight? Do you have a definition for ethical? Because one thing that might seem ethical to you might not seem ethical to me or to someone else.. On the other hand, is it ethical to have rampart, expert tactics and casting mass-haste (or slow) vs Tower and finishing off the final battle in the first turn? I mean ... these are the rules of the game. If you have any good comments, I would appreciate it if you could post them here as well if you are interested in enforcing more balance on online-gaming.
P.S.: I hope I am pissing you enough to think harder for a good definition because I want a definition for that one as well ... However, all of my attempts were flawed so far. 
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The empty set
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 28, 2006 01:10 AM |
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Edited by Russ on 27 Mar 2006
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Quote:
There's something here that I don't understand. I've heard just about everybody in this discussion say in one form or another that the might heroes in HOMM3 are a big advantage over magic heroes. Yet here we have a tactic that is a clear advantage to the magic heroes and yet everybody wants to ban it. If you set out with the goals of fair play and balance in mind then this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.
FFS, why don't you just read one of the might vs magic threads before making an off-topic post? How about reading the Stronghold thread (it is the most recent and I've posted the answer to your question there about 2 weeks ago)? I think the mods should start giving warnings to people who keep spamming threads with unrelated crap that has already been discussed 100000-s of times.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 28, 2006 01:17 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Everybody knows what a hit and run is...
That statement seems to be proven wrong allready.
Angelito, I dont think a round 1 rule is very good. Just bring 7 fast single units that can survive round one and then cast implo or something else round 2. This situation is exactly what the no hit and run rule should prevent.
So if i have 7 fast single units, i cast implo first turn, u canīt kill all of my units, and i flee start of next turn...thatīs better?
If i even use a scout for that, i can cast implo next turn aswell and stay till u kill me...thaīt wonīt be hit and run.
Only way to prevent such things (refering to use main hero for hit&run) is, NO flee in human fight.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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