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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Hit and run
Thread: Hit and run This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted February 05, 2007 08:36 PM
Edited by HeymlicH at 20:40, 05 Feb 2007.

Quote:

Say, you have 2 or more () stacks of Archangels vs your opponents army with top speed creature having speed strictly lower than the speed of the Archangels. Then you can hit with your first (N-1) stack(s) of Archangels and surrender after that hit while your opponent was never able to do something apart from retaliation ... So, for examples like this one I would like to hear some comments as well. Let's say you have infinite amount of gold to afford the surrender.


This may be a stupid question, but if you attack me with your AA's and surrender, can't I just reject in MP? I was expecting to be asked if I accept your surrender, if you try this.


@Maretti: Your rule basically say's: If you lose a battle you are a cheater, as I read it. You are not allowed to flee and you are not allowed to die. So if you suspect the opponent is stronger you are not allowed to deal damage.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 05, 2007 08:39 PM

No, you dont have that option. If he has money enough to pay 50% of his armycost he can surrender.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted February 05, 2007 09:43 PM

Quote:
Futhermore you are not allowed to sacrifice any hero with the purpose of reducing the opponents army.
So what if I for some reason have two heroes and each of them has creatures worth two weeks' growth but from different factions, and a nearby enemy hero has an army worth 3 weeks?

Assuming the heroes are nearly equal my only chance will be to attack him twice and seriously hurt his army with the first attack even though I know that I'll lose that battle.
Is that hit and run?

Do I misunderstand your rule if I interpret it as: "You are not allowed to attack an enemy hero if you don't expect to win"?

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TnT_Addict
TnT_Addict


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
posted February 05, 2007 10:51 PM

Quote:
This may be a stupid question, but if you attack me with your AA's and surrender, can't I just reject in MP? I was expecting to be asked if I accept your surrender, if you try this.

Maybe only a hot seat game has this option cause I know that I saw it somewhere too...

Or maybe it was heroes 2
____________

Please
click and help me out!! Thanks!!

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 06, 2007 12:13 AM

@HeymlicH: You read what you wanna read, and I dont find your comments very constructive. You forget the x factor, you are allowed to run after x rounds. Apart from that you are not allowed to run ONLY if you have dealt MORE damage than him, which is not very likely if he is stronger than you.

@Ecoris: Thats not exactly what the rule is about, but not that far away either. You are allowed to attack and deal damage, just not more damage than he does up untill a certain amount of rounds (could be 4)

In the example you mention you can attack and reduce his army, you are just not allowed to do more damage than him, which is not very likely anyway since he has a bigger army. Besides that it is very rare in online games that you have 2 armies of diffrent factions but even if it should be the case I dont think this rule will ruin your chances.

____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted February 06, 2007 01:53 AM

It is a big difference if I hit and run, or sacrifice a hero. Hit and run means he will come with all the artifacts, and do some major damage.

If you sacrifice a hero you don't bring your artifacts. You will be able to cast a lightning bolt with 3 spellpower and that's it. This is not in the same league.

If you don't allow to "sacrifice" a hero this basically means whenever I lose a battle I violate this rule. Such a rule will cause a lot of discussion.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 06, 2007 09:56 AM

Again you fail to see the whole picture. If you have red orb or recanters on your main you can sacrifice all your magic arts with no problem. Besides there are more powerfull spells than lightning bolt. A 500 damage arma isnt hard to get on a scout, but its pretty unlikely you can win a game if your main army is reduced by 3500 hp.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted February 06, 2007 09:59 PM

@Maretti
Yes, the point in my example was just that you may have more than seven different troops to select from. All of them may be more powerful than my opponents army but since I can only select up to seven of them in my main army I might not be able to win in a single battle.

What do you suggest x should be?

Will the attacked player have any restrictions if his hero was not used to block a passage?
If my scout mage with a small army is attaked am I not allowed to use my mage's abilities just because I'll deal more damage? I mean, he was the aggressor, it's not my fault that he attacked my mage that was just scouting?

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 06, 2007 10:39 PM

Quote:
Will the attacked player have any restrictions if his hero was not used to block a passage?


Yes, he will not be allowed to flee or surrender from combat for the first x rounds if he has done more damage to his opponent than the opponent has done to him. Futhermore he is not allowed to sacrifice any hero with the purpose of reducing the opponents army.

Do you see a problem in this? Please post an example that could be realistic in an actual gaming situation, where the rule is a problem.

X could be 4. Do you think it should be more or less?


____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted February 07, 2007 12:33 PM

Ok. I have a septienna with a small army. She's scouting the area. An enemy hero attacks her with a larger army.
Will I not be allowed to use her death ripple to defend myself and flee at some point (since I have no chance of winning the battle) unless my opponent deals more damage than me or I wait perhaps four rounds? She might not even last four rounds.
The point is that she was attacked and that the attacker had all the time in the world to prepare himself and he might even have had the opportunity to select which creatures he brought into the battle.
As I see it such a rule seriously hurts mages.

Suppose she only had skeletons and had them split into several stacks. The attacker (e.g. a beastmaster) starts and sends a single Dragon Fly at the largest troop. It deals a few points of damage and the skeletons kills it on the retaliation. Now she has done the most damage so she is 'locked'; she's not allowed to flee.
The attacking beastmaster only has fast troops (at least faster than skeletons). He has every chance to set up the fight now. He stays out of the skeletons reach waits and get a 'double turn' with all his troops and wins the battle easily.

I just think different rules should apply for the attacker and the defender (i.e. the attacked hero) because being the attacker is a clear advantage.
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 07, 2007 01:24 PM

For me you make too much fuss about it. Hit and run is not allowing the other to react. So in a sence if you wait for the opponent to move with his fastest creature - its not hit and run.

About the scenario when you have archangels - kill some army and retreat... well this is the advantage of the fastest unit. If you have SOOOO MUCH gold to afort to escape multiple times with 3 archangels... so let it be. I dont thing this will decide games in more than 1 per 1000 games. But if you are too concerned about it - play with the same town aswell.

I thing that scouts war is one very interesting part of the game. And such ridicolous rules for H&R will ruin it.

So - the only necesery rule for me is - if you cast a spell - wait for the opponent to cast his spell. Thats all.

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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted February 07, 2007 02:23 PM

Quote:
So - the only necesery rule for me is - if you cast a spell - wait for the opponent to cast his spell. Thats all.

Quoting an earlier remark by maretti, which answers your viewpoint:
Quote:
So the following senario is np?:

You play extreme and find 3 lvl 30 magic heroes, one of them has scolar, you also find a box with all fire spells. Then you attack or gets attacked with all 3 heroes all having 7 dragon flies on them, and cast arma with all 3.

____________
The empty set

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 07, 2007 04:04 PM
Edited by liophy at 16:06, 07 Feb 2007.

i played probably 500 online games and i NEVER ever found level 30 heroes from prison. I have found level 20, but very rarely. Most of the times his power is no more than 5-6 and i dont thing this is a game decider.

And even if it is - well, tome of earth magic is also decider, Heavenly Helmet also, good cons also... lets ban them too. Having found level 20 or 30 hero from prison is big advantage and its absolutely fair to use it.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 07, 2007 05:30 PM

So far I havent heard anything that idicates that this rule wont work.

@Ecoris: Naturally you can surrender when its your turn for the first time, even if you have done the most damage by retaliation.

I dont see the problem in your example. All you risk is losing a few skelletons or a lousy scout, so what? You allways have the possiblity that you can run right away.

When you have to interpret whether "a scout is sacrificed with the purpose of reducing the opponents army" its important whether you are the attacker or the defender. Reducing the opponents main army is also more likely to be "hit and run" than reducing some scout army.

@Liophy: Maybe you have played 500 online games, but most of those games have been against weak players who have not thought about how to deal a proper hit and run. Other players havent done it because they dont like the tactic, but that doesnt mean it wouldnt be effective. The fact is that tower, stronghold and fortress would be hugely handicaped if hit and run was allowed. Besides that most players agree (unlike you) that hit and run is unfair, they just havent been able to come up with a good rule about it so far.

Play extreme 1 or 2 and ill promise you that you will find a lvl 30 hero from prison. (Unless you play a strong player, then you might be dead before you reach the desert)
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted February 07, 2007 05:39 PM

Quote:
When you have to interpret whether "a scout is sacrificed with the purpose of reducing the opponents army" its important whether you are the attacker or the defender. Reducing the opponents main army is also more likely to be "hit and run" than reducing some scout army.
But with so many interpretations what is left of the rule?
I just don't see why my opponent should have an easy time killing my scouts if some of them have some decent spells; he knows that when he attacks, it's not unfair, after all better magic is what compensates magic heroes.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 07, 2007 05:49 PM
Edited by maretti at 18:03, 07 Feb 2007.

Interpreting a rule is pretty normal in various cases but naturally can lead to problems compared to 100% clear rules but what is the alternative?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Pengu
Pengu


Hired Hero
posted February 08, 2007 06:04 AM

Well, hit & run is much about honour and knowing where the lines goes.
If someone have/finds a scout that
a) has a high spell power and a few flies then it's clear for everyone to see the intention of the player if he blocks och attacks the opponents main. If the hero uses his spell and flee or just die(won't matter cause the damage is done) that is a clear hit & run.
Then we have a main hero with 2 AA's attacking opponent and cast implosion and flee. Also clear hit & run.

But if I have a scout lvl 1 or lvl 2 with a few units on that gets attacked and the scout cast an arrow doing 30-50 damage I find it hard to call hit & run. Annoying yes, hit & run nah.

It becomes gray area for me when a lvl 1 or 2 scout attacks with 3-7 skells and cast an arrow and flees. Still a hero cost 2500 + the units. So in this cause u could see it as hit & run or just as a tactical reward for having collected alot of gold. In a short game when units are few, I would lean towards hit & run. Still gray area.


I played a game once vs some guy named Heroesmaster(why u remember the bad guys I don't know) and our heroes and armies were pretty equal. I took his main town on BB while he was away and bought a scout and gave him some small units like 20 dwarves, 30 gremlins 10 centaurs and stared exploring his area. Then his main hero came back with his army and attacked my scout. He killed off my gremlins with his grand elves and my centaurs with his pegasi. Then my scout who was lvl 4 or something got his turn and i fired a bolt on his elves and killed 5 elves. Then I ran with my scout.
He starts to go all crazy telling me since he didn't use magic I can not use magic and run.
he then takes back his town and attacks me with 2 golden dragons and cast implo. Then he flees and tells me that now hit & run has become allowed cause I did it.

For me being attacked can practically never be hit & run except in a few rare cases when a road is blocked by a hero or scout.
Being the one attacking you should have time and know the consequenses of attacking a hero.
For me hit & run is all about intent. When a player only has an objective to kill some armies and not really have a fight it's a clear hit & run. If a scout just stands there getting attacked by a hero it was not planned by the scout to get attacked therby gettin a chance to use magic and flee.


It is very rare when you don't see in the setup of a battle if the intent of the opponent is to hit and run.
few units
fast units
being the agressor are clear indications of hit and run.


Only exceptions are if main heroes already have fought and few units are left after one fled, or that a passage is blocked provocing/forcing a hero to attack.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 08, 2007 10:22 AM

Quote:
Play extreme 1 or 2 and ill promise you that you will find a lvl 30 hero from prison. (Unless you play a strong player, then you might be dead before you reach the desert)


Now we measure who has biggest dick or what?

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 08, 2007 11:18 AM

Sorry, I just got slighty annoyed that you called the rule "ridiculous" without giving one good example or argument of it not working.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 08, 2007 11:56 AM

The only game we ever played we met at the treasure area and it was a while until you were able to attack me. Offcourse - in the end you won, but... it was the first time i have ever played balance...

Nevermind. About the topic: For me its ridiculous becouse its just too much. And i did give explanations: Games could be decided by cons or relics a lot more often than "Hit and sacrifice" by high level prison hero.

For me the high level prison hero is like having found one big cons - it gives you an edge. Would it decide the outcome... well its not sure.

And its a whole lot diferent than to have the disadvantage of the slow towns you mentioned. Becouse, first - theres the element of the map richnes - you have the prison (as cons and relics), and second - you fight for it (as for relics or cons).

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