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| Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Inferno Faction |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 16 17 18 19 20 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 07, 2008 08:45 PM |
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Howdy,
I am a bit frustrated with Inferno. I love the idea - big bunch of raging hell spawn unleashed on all living and dead alike - but I simply cannot stop thinking that this faction is heavily underpowered (if not for Deleb).
My main issue is that I cannot effectively clean the early game. Any sprite, gremlin or whatever better than peasants is very likely to eliminate half of my starting force of those delicate-like-HELL imps and crap-like-HELL demons.
Waiting for their upgrades takes days which any other faction would spend taking pit, sawmill and chests around. If I try to attack gremlins with my beginning army, not a single imp would survive their first salvo.
Are there any serious/effective/tricky ways of cleaning the early game? Some advice, please. I'm currently testing various strats on War of the Worlds, as the green player on Hard. If you know a way to effectively clean the starting area quickly (for example in this setup), please share it.
Other things I consider undermining the Inferno's effectiveness:
- Gating. Works only with Inferno units. Every other specialty except the Orcs' one works with any kind of unit. This means a Demon Lord leading Archangels is 50% as useful as a Knight leading Archdevils.
- Leadership. A must if you are on a large map, because you always end up with lvl 7 units of at least two castles in such games. Without leadership, those creatures will never take turns. Also has a godsend perk - Aura of Swiftness, which lets Grunts leap over the whole map, lets Archdevils, Cerberi and Nightmares reach most of the enemy army on first move (without tactics, I'll tell you later why I would skip that skill) and works almost like expert logistics for Pit Fiends/Lords (lets them move 25% further - quite an upgrade, really). Why is this skill a error for a Demon Lord? It has a 2% chance of showing up. Crap.
- Sloooow. The demons are slooowww. They should be gating immediately and blitzing right afterwards, everyone says that's what they do. Bullcrap. Cerberi and Nightmares have good initiative and can move over large distances, but are so fragile that they seem one-shot only. Imps have decent init and lack move distance, not that they should move at all if they are to survive a minute. Archdevils are retardedly slow for a melee fighter L7, most other L7s either act sooner or move further or both (unless they shoot or cast). Horned dudes are a laugh.
- Fragile. Demons lack any sort of defense, which would be acceptable if they had any way of increasing their numbers like Necro or resurrecting fallen troops.. like necro, or shooting early on like Haven, Sylvan, Academy.... Well, they don't. They blitz, die and stay dead leaving hero almost alone after just a few battles.
One thing can turn this crap into a game winning idiot-friendly town almost immediately.
This thing is Deleb.
All in all I think Inferno is whackedly iffily crappily weak, but I like it so much that I'm going mad and need any help I can get with turning that crap into a winnable faction.
Please give some advice on how to start off with Inferno so you're not a week behind your opponents later.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 07, 2008 09:04 PM |
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but I simply cannot stop thinking that this faction is heavily underpowered
Depends on the player and strategy.
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My main issue is that I cannot effectively clean the early game. Any sprite, gremlin or whatever better than peasants is very likely to eliminate half of my starting force of those delicate-like-HELL imps and crap-like-HELL demons.[/qoute]
You are NOT supposed to fight with plain imps and horned demons.Wait untill you get Horned leapers and Firehounds, all problems solved.Or if you want go risky use handfull of leapers with familiars and (regular) ballista.
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Waiting for their upgrades takes days which any other faction would spend taking pit, sawmill and chests around. If I try to attack gremlins with my beginning army, not a single imp would survive their first salvo.
Every faction creeps differently,Dungeon is first to creep,Necro,stronghold and academy come close second followed by haven,sylvan and infernals and last come the dwarfs (unless Overpowered ingvar)
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This means a Demon Lord
leading Archangels is 50% as useful as a Knight leading Archdevils.
why would a Demon lord ever want to lead archangels?The morale drops well below hundered when holy creatures work with unholy hero.
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Sloooow. The demons are slooowww. They should be gating immediately and blitzing right afterwards, everyone says that's what they do.
they do, you either have something slowing them down or haven't got the right skills.
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Cerberi and Nightmares have good initiative and can move over large distances, but are so fragile that they seem one-shot only. Imps have decent init and lack move distance, not that they should move at all
They are supposed to take that stack in one hit OR gate.
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if they are to survive a minute. Archdevils are retardedly slow for a melee fighter L7, most other L7s either act sooner or move further or both (unless they shoot or cast).
No, archdevils are good speeded and will summon pit balors.
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Fragile. Demons lack any sort of defense.
They are NOT dwarves.They are demons, they assault the front lines with godspeed.
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This thing is Deleb.
Is it me or do you play barbarians alot?That would explain your overhype for the ballista.
My recommendation for the behind a week problem:
It depends totally on faction,if its academy it does not matter, you cant build effective counter strategy cause they are so flexible.if its necro you arent in trouble yet.If its dwarfs you should be week ahead, not them.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 07, 2008 09:41 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:43, 07 May 2008.
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Nah inferno isn't underpowered in any sense. Just has a trickier creeping, otherwise it's great for midgame matches.
Sprites or weak shooters you can only take demons, gate and kill some with a destructive spell that you are guaranteed to get. No big deal, alternatively warmachines. Tough units as vindicators are also manageable with some skill. Only units I really fear early are hunters and swift types.
No need to wait for upgrades, just upg imps and recruit the demons. That should be enough in most cases.
In any case inferno is not a newbie-friendly faction, to be fast with it takes a lot of practice and skill.
About what you call undermining the Inferno's effectiveness:
- 'Gating. Works only with Inferno units. '
Whereas artificer, necromancy, avenger or runes work with others?
- 'Leadership.' It's one of the best skills for them, it would be too good at a higher chance.
- 'The demons are slooowww.' Since when?
'Cerberi and Nightmares have good initiative and can move over large
distances, but are so fragile that they seem one-shot only. '
That's inferno's way, nothing wrong with that. Coupled with gates and dark it's fine.
Archdevils are really good as horned grunts are. I don't understand what your problem is.
- 'Fragile. Demons lack any sort of defense, which would be acceptable if they had any way of increasing their numbers like Necro or resurrecting fallen troops.. '
You mean like gating?
'One thing can turn this crap into a game winning idiot-friendly town almost immediately.
This thing is Deleb.'
That's simply wrong. I have played Grok and Nebiros just as succesfully and taken down 40+ archdevils week 3. Only thing Deleb has is faster warmachines but it's a common skill that you'll get fast enough.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 07, 2008 10:47 PM |
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In any case inferno is not a newbie-friendly faction, to be fast with it takes a lot of practice and skill.
I will work on that skill then.
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Whereas artificer, necromancy, avenger or runes work with others?
Necro let's you change other things into your own while Avenger works with any creature, or so it says in its description...
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- 'Leadership.' It's one of the best skills for them, it would be too good at a higher chance.
Too good at a chance above 2%? Now.. you serious?
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- 'The demons are slooowww.' Since when?
Ever since they aren't much faster than anybody else ;d
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'Cerberi and Nightmares have good initiative and can move over large
distances, but are so fragile that they seem one-shot only. '
That's inferno's way, nothing wrong with that. Coupled with gates and dark it's fine.
Archdevils are really good as horned grunts are. I don't understand what your problem is.
My problem is that the Inferno units are neither fast enough to kill before they are killed nor have means of *seriously* reducing their losses.
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- 'Fragile. Demons lack any sort of defense, which would be acceptable if they had any way of increasing their numbers like Necro or resurrecting fallen troops.. '
You mean like gating?
Gating spawns reinforcements. While it helps win a battle, I do not disagree, it does not protect your demons from being massacred in due course. Necro will easily refill their army with undead transformer, necro skill and eternal servitude and lord of the undead. Demon Lord is simply left with a seriously reduced army that will gate less in the next fight, until it is washed away completely, while Haven resurrects itself, necro re-undeaths itself or dungeon blasts everything with spells, not caring for its army.
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'One thing can turn this crap into a game winning idiot-friendly town almost immediately.
This thing is Deleb.'
That's simply wrong. I have played Grok and Nebiros just as succesfully and taken down 40+ archdevils week 3. Only thing Deleb has is faster warmachines but it's a common skill that you'll get fast enough.
The difference is big. Deleb creeps 3 times as fast as Grok can, from level 6 she can clean the whole map without taking reinforcements more than once. Grok has to keep coming back for units and relies on units and/or spells (mana), at least for the first 10 levels. Deleb doesn't need units or spells, her town can easily go tavern->market->silo->town hall->demons->blacksmith->kennels without even caring for imps. Later she has more resources and gets 5-7 dwellings easier. Her ballista cleans all in the meantime.
Deleb will have level 15 by the time Grok gets to 10. You just have to keep 20 imps/demons in the army for boxing and get two pit fiends later for resurrecting with the Tent.
But for all my belief in that Inferno really is a bit crappy, I will keep on training it until I own every damn map and player and setup with it ;dd
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 07, 2008 10:57 PM |
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Oh oh, and by all means share with me the way you killed 40+ ADs in third week. I believe it not possible, unless there was some huge advantage given to you (like a battlemap with only several 2x2 squares free of obstacles on your half of it).
I can see killing 10, 20. But 40+?
I'm all ears now...
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted May 08, 2008 12:09 AM |
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Swift Minded Dark Magic pwns all. Hence, it's time to stop thinking of Inferno as pure might and think of them as being fully magic capable.
And there is no better hero for this than Alastor.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 08, 2008 12:25 AM |
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I'm in the middle of a game now, will look for the replay a little later. I think I had familiars, demons, cerberi and seducers. I cast a couple of frenzys but most of the job was covering my units with gates and hit&run with the doggies.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 08, 2008 12:42 AM |
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Swift Minded Dark Magic pwns all. Hence, it's time to stop thinking of Inferno as pure might and think of them as being fully magic capable.
And there is no better hero for this than Alastor.
I agree that a series of mass Slow/Confu/Suffering effectively reduces enemy stacks by two tiers ;D but my problem is at the beginning. I'm trying hard to keep going as fast as I can, because I know that on the map I play recently (War of the Worlds) day 3 of week 2 is when AIs start showing up in their neighbours' backyards. Whatever I do, however, I always find myself near my castle by the end of week 1 with pit and mill only, while with Deleb I would already have gone through 5 neutral stacks and the enemy's castle.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 08, 2008 02:25 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 02:25, 08 May 2008.
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Ah found it. Not sure why I had succubi mistresses there but imagine that the battle could have been easier. There's also a second battle with the devils 3 levels later.
Here is a more interesting battle, this time with some more luck in the battlefield. I also bought 2 pitlords from a mercenary camp and had arcane crystal.
Deleb may have a better ballista but Grok has his tricks  Didn't take too long for me to get warmachines either, I think it was close to lvl 5.
Also.. Lately I played a random game on rat race and I got inferno. I was surprised to see that they did not really need warmachines to creep because of a few things in the starting area: 2 locations for spellpower to help against ranged. Tier 2 dwelling. Sphinx that can give you 5k xp. And you also start with 4 yeti and 15 imps.
I love this approach, while inferno is traditionally weak against shooters the map gives it some benefits to cope with them easier. Yeti have agility in case you don't remember so they are great against ranged.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 08, 2008 03:29 AM |
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Ok I have a lovely situation.
War of the Worlds map, Green starting pos. All near city cleared, except the crystal mine guarded by a horde of maulers and an artifact guarded by spectral dragons. The exit from this area is guarded by a stack of druids (on the battlefield they deploy 2x6 Druids and 7 Archdruids). I have Grok lvl 6 one step from TA (my lvlups offered defense, destro magic and sorcery ;]).
What army do you think is enough to take against such a foe? I don't think it is worth pushing through without pit spawn ;D. One group of those druids eliminate 32 imps / 7 dogs. Insane.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 08, 2008 09:28 AM |
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I'll tell you what, maps where mines are guarded by horde of tier 3 and don't give you some kind of bonus are not balanced. If you get arcane archers, poltergeists and some others you simply cannot take them fast and that's not only inferno's problem.
About the druids I'd probably attack with several pit fiends and if I had good ballista/tent. Afaik only dungeon and necro can take them without much of a problem. Academy too if they are unupgraded(stone spikes still hurt the lightning immune gargoyles).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 08, 2008 03:23 PM |
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on such maps I'd advise to resort to Deleb. Maybe she is boring clicky clicky stuff, but you'll have problems with tier3 shooters/tier4 casters without her if such creatures guard important mines.
On maps where you can get the mines easier, you don't need Deleb. You can choose the path and kill the creeps you find easy to kill. When your experience grows, you will find yourself capable of killing more types of creeps. Tip: experiment with different spells. For certain creeps, certain spells are wonders. You won't get far by brute force.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 08, 2008 03:25 PM |
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You could also rely alastor with confusion.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2008 07:24 PM |
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Quote:
Ok I have a lovely situation.
War of the Worlds map, Green starting pos. All near city cleared, except the crystal mine guarded by a horde of maulers and an artifact guarded by spectral dragons. The exit from this area is guarded by a stack of druids (on the battlefield they deploy 2x6 Druids and 7 Archdruids). I have Grok lvl 6 one step from TA (my lvlups offered defense, destro magic and sorcery ;]).
What army do you think is enough to take against such a foe? I don't think it is worth pushing through without pit spawn ;D. One group of those druids eliminate 32 imps / 7 dogs. Insane.
There is no solid strategy for inferno, everything depends on many things.
All guardians in your teritory depends on your starting hero. Imho, grok often has the most unbalanced guardian. But you can still manage to win if you know what skill that you need when using him. Imho nebiros, grawl, is better than grok, because this factor.
So scout all important places asap with your secondary hero or your primary hero.
As inferno, you don't need to creep all things in your teritory, the most important thing is wood, ore, mercury mine. Ignore every crazy creeps except those that guard those three mines. Capture those three asap.
Crazy creeps: druids, elder druids, master hunter, arcane archer, etc.
Offensive caster like archmage, druids and elder druids must be ignored unless they guard those three mines. Though it's possible to creep arcane archer and master hunter if their threat lv is moderate.
Creep everthing else that is challenging or less than it but no crazy creeps, but watch out for fast challenging creeps like cerberus, though you can creep hell hounds because it can't target 3 creatures at once.
Without deleb, Adv gating is a must, as with this skill, you can creep all non shooter/caster challenging creeps. If you are not sure in your battle againts very strong 1x1 tile creep, you must place all your units in a crowded formation, split demons to several stacks, 1 big stack, the rest is 1, place them in the front to protect all units behind them. Now, create a gating formation, make it a narrow way, so that only one enemy stack can enter that way, now finish them all one by one. Be careful in placing your stack when attacking, enemy stacks must never target your real stack. Use your gated stack and 1 demon as blocker, not only to steal retaliations. And never forget to not overkill/overdmg, overkill is a waste of turn that result in an unfavorable situation, in time, you will notice that minimizing overkill = minimizing your loses.
example:
You fight againts lots (25 or more) of earth daughter or battle rager, etc in week 2 or 3. Its threat lv is challenging. You can win this battle with minimal to no loses with only vermin, horned demons, hell hound (yes, it's not ceberus but hell hound), yup, no deleb, no war machines, just adv gating + vermins, demons, amd hell hounds, hero lv doesn't matter as long as he/she has adv gating.
To minimize your loses, you need a correct formation.
You place your formation in upper corner.
AD O
BD X
DDXXX
A,B,D,X: imp,hellhound,demons,gated stacks.
O: The narrow way that enemy stack will enter to attack you.
It doesn't work well againts fast strike and return creep like furies.
Againts 2x2 creeps, it's a lot easier. Just use what placement that you need.
About war of the world, i never try another position except red player.
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted May 12, 2008 11:17 PM |
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All guardians in your teritory depends on your starting hero.
Sorry for the offtopicness, but do you mean that each hero gets different creeps instead of them being randomly generated regardless of your starting hero? Isn't that incredibly imbalanced?
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 06:07 PM |
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Yes.
Every faction has more than one hero. Creeps that guard your teritory depends on your faction's starting hero. Ofc it is randomed, but not that random, as you can often read its pattern.
Nope, it's not imbalanced, it make each hero has different style and path, especially in heroic. Though in hard, you can still use the same way of other hero.
i.e: As dungeon, if you use sinitar, imps are often guard one of your early important site, while yrwana has her own set of guardian, fast creeps and shooter often guard in her teritory.
This is because sinitar has more powerful magic, and he rely in magic more than yrwana, especially early, so imps guard his site to make it harder for him.
While as Yrwana, fast creep and shooter guard her site to make it harder for her, because it can counter her furies, shooter not only counter her furies, but she has fewer scout/assasin/stalker, and if you fight shooter, usually you won't bring your furies, but you must use your few number of assasin, assasin alone won't make this battle easy, at least your already few assasin will become more fewer, you need magic as backup, but yrwana magic is weaker than sinitar.
You can see the difference in heroic difficulty. Though as dungeon, sinitar and eruina are very similar, and they are not that different from the other (i.e: yrwana, vayshan). But you can notice many big difference in other factions's heroes.
That's why, grok suck in heroic, because he usually get caster and shooter as his guardian creeps. I prefer nebiros to grok.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 13, 2008 06:42 PM |
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Are you sure? I've played MANY times specific heroes and I never noticed a pattern. For instance with Sinitar I've rarely encountered imps compared to other tier 1 creeps.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 07:27 PM |
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I have never seen a pattern as well (I'm a Homm2/3/4/5 veteran pro-noob all the way though, meaning I've played a lot and lot and double lot, but wouldn't dare to challenge anyone calling himself at least decent ;p).
Nevertheless, I thank you for your previous post. It is very    nice and helpful ;].
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2008 09:04 PM |
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@Nerull
I admit, in war of the worlds map, green starting position is very vulnerable for inferno in heroic difficulty, even againts the AI. Red is easier than green.
Yesterday i try war of the world map, randomed my hero as inferno at green position, i got nymus. I try this againts the AI, because imho, it is harder than againts human player in this map, especially as green inferno and in heroic difficulty.
The worst thing is lots of druids guarding the main entrance to mercury lab. I creep all but the druid and several pit lords in week 1-2.
There is little chance here, but i try to take on that druid in week 3, i bring only 6 sucubus (splitted to 6 stack, 1 each) and about 40 demons, i lost 36 demons and 4 sucubi againts 21 druid, splitted to 3 stacks, 7 each. Mark of damned, hellfire and hero's attack save my day, as most of the druids are dead because of mark of damned, hero's attack and succubi trigerring hellfire, my nymus has only 1 spellpower and is lv 6.
Well, the worst part is not the druid. It is the AIs, because green position is near brown, red and blue. First, blue attack me the next day after i kill the druids, fortunately i won, then in the next week, red come to me after defeating blue, luckily, i find another inferno hero to increase my demons and imps, and thanks to vermins and 2 pit fiend, i manage to survive this fight with little lost.
After that hard day, finally i had a chance to breathe, but on day 1 next week, i predict that brown will approach my castle, so i save my gold to fortify my castle, just a fort is enough, for i plan to defend it with vermin+pit fiend combo, early weeks, that combo is often save my day againts those AI attacking me one after another. Luckily brown did not attack me, and its hero return to its castle, just to found that yellow is aproaching. After a heated battle for 1 week, brown is defeated, then red approach yellow, and the next day, i go to backstab one of red's castle. This is a turning point, then i managed to win in the next 2 month.
Blue is academy, red is inferno, brown and yellow is haven, purple is fortress.
@Elvin
Well, i often had imps as my early guardian as sinitar.
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Nerull
Hired Hero
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posted May 18, 2008 09:55 AM |
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I have one more doubt about inferno.
What are this castle's ideas for a very late game? What I mean is what could be the idea to dump the +12k gold/day with inferno once you get those gold mines and 3 towns (assume all are different) pumping cash for you?
Some other factions have obvious ideas for that, like Haven spitting out 28 Inquisitors/week with Training Grounds, while Necro would buy them out and un-kill in their town.
What would be the Inferno's way of effectively utilising 12k daily gold income and 3 towns (for instance, Inferno, Haven and Dungeon)?
Sacrificial Pit seems a little crap. It doesn't lend a half of the experience it should to make buying out creatures in other towns and sending them for exp in your main town worth the money.
Or is it?
Ideas?
That's my main doubt about Inferno's late game usefulness, by the way, as Leadership is unlikely to come by and Gating skill (unlike almost any other) works only for Inferno creatures.
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