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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted February 13, 2009 12:22 AM |
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lets assume for a second that it is so, do you think its right for 42 young men to die because they were calling someone names?
and i really can't understand christians that say "if not for religion, what stops you from killing/stealing/etc?" ...if you don't "sin" because of fear or because you want to be rewarded in the afterlife, then you are morally bankrupt to begin with
God judged them for blasphemy, as I explained. Israel was a theocracy and the penalty for blasphemy was death. It was not simple name calling. It was blatent disrespect of God and of the prophet (who was the representative of God on earth.) And they were making fun of the previous prophet too and saying the previous prophet had not in fact been taken to heaven. The original wording is:
"Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. Ascend, thou empty skull, to heaven, as it is pretended thy master did!"
They blasphemed and God judged.
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If you leave out your arrogance here, we can easily discuss that topic. But this is again an example of the attitude many religious people have.
You just have to accept, many people don't believe anything written in the bible, therefore it is fiction or a compilation of fairy tales for them. Only because someone thinks a thing is not for real, doesn't automatically mean he is not able to talk about it. Religous people should start to accept different opinions and not act like the crusaders in the middle ages.
As long as YOU do not accept this, you may not be able to discuss religion, but only state and repeat those fairy tales written in the bible.
You are the one who displayed arrogance. Saying Harry Potter is a religious work and equivalent to the Bible is being intellectually dishonest. As I pointed out the author writes Harry Potter as a work of fiction, not as a religious document.
Atheists believe in a number of fairy tales for which there is no proof, that they take by faith.
1) You say there is no God. You have no proof. Your position is one of faith.
2) You say the universe produced itself with no cause. Again, no proof, and a violation of the laws of thermodynamics as well.
3) You say inamimate matter began to live. No proof.
It is impossible to say "There is no God" without that being a statement of faith.
You condemn others for having faith yet you have faith yourself. You condemn others for believing "fairy tales" yet the things are far more far fetched than God creating the univers.
Atheists typicallly display arrogant attitudes like yours. At least the Dawkinites do. Just because somebody doesn't believe what you believe doesn't make the belief they hold a fairy tale. It is you who don't accept that others have a right to differing opinions. You are a Crusader youself.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 04:18 AM |
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Doomforge:
I think "meek" and "bold" are antonyms. One can't be meek and bold at the same time.
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Which kinda puts you at his level. He tortures you, you torture him. Reasons? bah. You still do it.
Reasons matter.
Say I shoot a guy. That's it. What do you say?
Now say that guy pulled a gun on me, and I wrestled it away from him, and, in the process, shot him in self-defense. Now what do you say? I still shot a guy.
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He won't learn.
He'll learn. If punishing children teaches them to stop, then same for criminals. And it's not just for him - it's for potential criminals as well. If they see that they can get away with impunity, then what do you think they'd do?
Don't give the sanction of the victim. That is the absolutely worst thing one can do.
TheDeath:
I doubt most murderers would say that they were "defending themselves".
Elodin:
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So you find treating others with love to be "anti-human?"
If they do not treat you with love, then don't treat them with love. Simple as that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 08:07 AM |
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I have a different problem with Christian religion:
The father of Jesus Christ isn't meeting humanitarian standards. Simple as that. First of all he starts off with a chosen people which is like there were two different sorts of humans would exist. If there's only one god and if he made all people - why does he care especially for one tribe of them? I mean, somehow that was Cain's problem as well, wasn't it? Why does he get involved in human business, helping his "chosen people" from slavery in Egypt? What about the others? Doesn't he care? Obviously his chosen people ain't better than the rest, in fact you might say EVEN THOUGH they are on speaking terms with their god they seem to be ESPECIALLY wily and break his laws constantly.
And there are lots of standards, laws and stuff that are abhorrent - I basically wouldn't want to live as a human under his "rule" or in a state ruled after his laws. Old Jahve is not a pleasant or gentle type of god, and, frankly, he's a god I don't see any reason bowing for EXCEPT his power or might which is not even a reason to bow before a human except for brute force, not to mention a god who should not JUST be more powerful than a human being. If the humans are his children, he just should be a bit more loving, caring and understanding.
Now for Christ - in the end "the rest of the world" still feels like an afterthought to me. Somehow I can't shake the feeling that Christ was simply a reformer of Jewish religion, in some ways a Jewish Luther, if you want to. Moreover, the Council of Nicaea and the involvement of Emperor Constantin as the most powerful man of that time makes it extremely likely that the Bible has been changed to better fit his purposes: you don't become the official religion of the most powerful state in the world without making compromises. Resulting in an absence of any kind of unity in Christianity and a rather vast range of opinions about what really is part of the original credo and what was added or changed later.
Examples would be the role of Virgin Mary and the role of a Peter as Jesus' "governor" on earth with the founding of the office of the pope, which are doubtful, to say the least.
The bottom line is, while Jesus would be a person I could follow, provided I forget the problems with the lore, his father is another case altogether - however, somehow I can't avoid him, can I? What happened anyway with him and his iron rule?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 13, 2009 11:46 AM |
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Why oh why do we always have to discuss everything over quote wars. 
@Angelito
In fact, every answer should be neutral - if nothing, just because no one can be sure of anything. And common sense tells us to respect other peoples' opinions.
I'm trying to be as neutral as possible, as I've participated on both sides on several views.  You might not remember that, but I've fought off quite a few fanatics from both sides in this very discussion. 
Who says religion isn't edited? It's edited as we speak. One of the most important edits was the inclusion of the New Testament, for example - which completely changed the very essence and idea of God. Later on, dozens of changes were made; both bad and good - but religion is changing. God probably isn't, but religion is. But it's a question how much religion has to do with God anyway.
As for the nature problem, I don't recall God creating us in the middle of the desert... No, we ourselves chose to populate the entire planet and every corner of it. And people living in deserts choose to make so much children, which then live in... harsh conditions. Through humanity's cooperation with itself, this could've been avoided.
Hurricanes and tsunamis etcetera happen for a reason. Through such catastrophes, humanity learns to help itself, to raise itself from the ashes, and above all, feel compassion to those in need. Of course, that's one theory.
Yes, there are miracles. Dozens of them, everywhere around us. It's just that we are getting used to them, or not noticing them, not caring or not even wanting to see them.
Every event, from the Big Bang to the birth of a child, can be regarded as a miracle. A physical miracle, but still a miracle. 
About ideas, of course, all of us regard things our own way - and that's sort of the point. Did God sit in my bedroom and tell things to me? Maybe not. Maybe he did. Maybe he sits in the bedrooms of all of us. Maybe there's a bit of God in every mind, object and atom in the multiverse. We can't understand that or know it for sure as of yet.
However, what we can do is try to explain the world around us, to understand some point or function behind it all. And that's when we get ideas. Maybe some ideas clash, but maybe some go well together, of all the infinity of different ones.
Maybe they're all equally true, or can be applied in the same measure.
Maybe a human being can come up with a good idea without a divine being sitting in its bedroom and telling stuff to him/her.
Or maybe every idea in the world is a whisper from God.
Maybe the idea was that we learn to come up with our own ideas, without God having to constantly tell us what to do, in the first place.
But instead of dismissing an idea just because we don't think God whispered it in someone's ear, maybe we need to think about that and see if the idea itself makes sense regardless of the source.
About the point of existence, the very point in faith is that you do not know for sure if it exists or not. And no matter how far we go, we will most probably never be able to know anything certain about the existence of a higher power. Simply because, if it exists, it doesn't just sit somewhere in the sky on a huge golden chair. If it exists, it's most probably in everything. It's the essence of a soul, of a star, of a stone. It's the otherworldly thought that lives inside all of us, and outside all of us. And, most certainly of all, we can't understand it.
Yet.
But, in the end, as we can neither be sure God exists, or doesn't exist, logic dictates that the only rational thing to do is admit we do not know. I think we can agree on that?
Anything else is a matter of belief, but not of certainty. Both theism and atheism.
As for the last thing, do you know what happens after death?
Not really. Me neither.
Perhaps souls are recycled. Perhaps the Hindus are right in that matter.
Perhaps not.
Perhaps there's heaven and hell. As states of the mind, maybe.
Perhaps not.
Perhaps they're right here on Earth.
Perhaps not.
But all in all, I think even we can agree that the human race differs quite a lot from a single child. And then again, in some ways, it's pretty similar.
Here's an example. If your child asks for a bicycle, will you buy him one? Even if he'll probably fall quite a few times along the way? Yes. And eventually, it'll learn to drive it.
Maybe all of humanity is a single child. And all of us are its cells - without us, it wouldn't exist. But when it makes a mistake, it is us who are hurt.
The difference is, we do not only form the body of humanity; we also form its mind. Every one of us.
After all of this, the only thing I have to ask you is that you, please, do not answer me with quote wars. We had them for 150 pages with no result, and now maybe it's time to try another form of discussion. The more... natural one.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted February 13, 2009 12:21 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 12:49, 13 Feb 2009.
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As far as i know,religions does not prohibit drugs.
No, but it tells you to love yourself. Do you call it loving if you intentionally cause harm for your body?
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Religion does not prohibit killing
One of Ten Commandments prohibits killing. No exceptions.
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Israel was a theocracy and the penalty for blasphemy was death. It was not simple name calling. It was blatent disrespect of God and of the prophet (who was the representative of God on earth.) And they were making fun of the previous prophet too and saying the previous prophet had not in fact been taken to heaven.
A fail society because killing is wrong. Killing is a coward's way to get rid of problems. If a child does something wrong he is not killed, he is taught. Why shouldn't this apply to adults as well? Especially if they're only physically grown-up but still are ignorant.
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The father of Jesus Christ isn't meeting humanitarian standards. Simple as that. First of all he starts off with a chosen people which is like there were two different sorts of humans would exist. If there's only one god and if he made all people - why does he care especially for one tribe of them? I mean, somehow that was Cain's problem as well, wasn't it? Why does he get involved in human business, helping his "chosen people" from slavery in Egypt? What about the others? Doesn't he care? Obviously his chosen people ain't better than the rest, in fact you might say EVEN THOUGH they are on speaking terms with their god they seem to be ESPECIALLY wily and break his laws constantly.
How about He needed people to spread word about Himself and He had to choose some group; He chose them. But as we know, humans are stupid and that's why we had Jesus and since the Christ's death people began to spread the religion.
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And there are lots of standards, laws and stuff that are abhorrent - I basically wouldn't want to live as a human under his "rule" or in a state ruled after his laws. Old Jahve is not a pleasant or gentle type of god, and, frankly, he's a god I don't see any reason bowing for EXCEPT his power or might which is not even a reason to bow before a human except for brute force, not to mention a god who should not JUST be more powerful than a human being. If the humans are his children, he just should be a bit more loving, caring and understanding.
Do you mean Ten Commandments? Did you know that society works best if they're obeyed.
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Now for Christ - in the end "the rest of the world" still feels like an afterthought to me. Somehow I can't shake the feeling that Christ was simply a reformer of Jewish religion, in some ways a Jewish Luther, if you want to. Moreover, the Council of Nicaea and the involvement of Emperor Constantin as the most powerful man of that time makes it extremely likely that the Bible has been changed to better fit his purposes: you don't become the official religion of the most powerful state in the world without making compromises. Resulting in an absence of any kind of unity in Christianity and a rather vast range of opinions about what really is part of the original credo and what was added or changed later.
Examples would be the role of Virgin Mary and the role of a Peter as Jesus' "governor" on earth with the founding of the office of the pope, which are doubtful, to say the least.
You don't have to believe everything said in the Bible to be a believer.
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And, most certainly of all, we can't understand it.
That's the greatest thing about belief: You don't have to understand to believe.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 12:41 PM |
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Quote:
Reasons matter.
Say I shoot a guy. That's it. What do you say?
Now say that guy pulled a gun on me, and I wrestled it away from him, and, in the process, shot him in self-defense. Now what do you say? I still shot a guy.
Yes but self-defense and vengeance are two different things. If you torture a imprisoned guy, you're just acting our of vengeance, because he's not a threat to you. Thus, you're at the same level as him.
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He'll learn. If punishing children teaches them to stop, then same for criminals. And it's not just for him - it's for potential criminals as well. If they see that they can get away with impunity, then what do you think they'd do?
Don't give the sanction of the victim. That is the absolutely worst thing one can do
Psychopathic characters won't learn.
Death Penalty in US did not lower the amount of crime, so I think your argument isn't too good. I mean, the states with DP weren't any better than the states without it.
JJ: The way I see it, God's name was used whenever it was possible, to strengthen the human laws, too. And the Old Testament is now a big mix. Some truth (assuming you believe in God, that is), some misunderstandings, some external influences. The way I see it, Jesus was a "patch" to how people perceive God.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 12:43 PM |
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How about He needed people to spread word about Himself and He had to choose some group; He chose them. But as we know, humans are stupid and that's why we had Jesus and since the Christ's death people began to spread the religion.
Excuse me, but that sounds plain silly. You mean, he didn't find the time in all those centuries and millennia to pay visits to all the people of the earth and introduce himself? Instead he relied on a couple of people to do it that would prove permanently that they didn't even want him? Dancing around golden idols as soon as Moses and god would be absent some time? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.
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Do you mean Ten Commandments? Did you know that society works best if they're obeyed.
No, I don't, and no I didn't. Who tested that? Especially the impact of, depending of who's counting, the first 3 or 4., respectively.
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You don't have to believe everything said in the Bible to be a believer.
However, if you doubt one thing, there is no reason not to doubt EVERYthing - why should some things be truth and others lie and how are we supposed to detect them. Picking what you like doesn't work.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 12:50 PM |
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Yes, but acting differently is blind following. You can't simply ignore the fact that the book was a) written by men, not God b) changed through centuries c) influenced by various things d) mistranslated at times (see original Hebrew text). You just have to take it in consideration, which means, you can't take everything for granted, or you will believe in contradictions.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 13, 2009 12:57 PM |
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@ TheDeath
I speak german fluently, a bit english, french and spain, but I have NO clue what language your post is written. If anyone did understand, maybe cares to elaborate.
I even had the idea you wanted to reply to a different thread and posted here by mistake...
@ Elodin
You have to show me where I said Harry Potter is a religious work. I just made a comparison between 2 books which are read by millions of people and those millions really believe what is stated there. And therefore the question: What makes the bible more real than Harry Potter?
And btw, I am no Ahteist, I am an agnostic. I'm honest enough to say "I do not know if something like God exists...but I do not care". So I can't be wrong, cause I have no statement. I have my statement about religion, yes. But not about God or an creator.
@ Baklava
I found your posts very good to read, because I finally found many times words like "Maybe" or "Perhaps", which should be main part of all religious statements. We talk about belief, therefore we can't talk about "knowledge".
But your explanation about the desert isn't very accurate imho. We didn't make the climate. We didn't make the desert. We didn't settle there, but (following the evolution theory) evolved from creatures living there already. I think it would be very very easy for an omnipotent "Creator" to change a few things in the whole universe to make the earth a better...if he wants to that is...
@ Rubycus
Could you elaborate where you have your "facts" from?
- How you know God is sad when those people die?
- Baby don't have free will (Is it written in the bible you get your free will on your 8th birthday???)
- There are other forces (devil)?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted February 13, 2009 01:05 PM |
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Excuse me, but that sounds plain silly. You mean, he didn't find the time in all those centuries and millennia to pay visits to all the people of the earth and introduce himself? Instead he relied on a couple of people to do it that would prove permanently that they didn't even want him?
I tend not to ever take anything so simple and clean when it's pertaining to something we don't understand.
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Dancing around golden idols as soon as Moses and god would be absent some time? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.
Humans are stupid and for that there is no other cure than teaching them.
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No, I don't, and no I didn't. Who tested that? Especially the impact of, depending of who's counting, the first 3 or 4., respectively.
3rd: "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy"
If you always work you become frustrated and stressed and everything. This way you work less effectively in the future than you do if you just keep that one day of rest.
4th: "Honor your father and mother"
Well, a stupid kid claims that he is wiser and knows better than his mother or father. If you respect your parents you don't have any problems to assimilate what they teach you and this way you survive better in life.
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However, if you doubt one thing, there is no reason not to doubt EVERYthing - why should some things be truth and others lie and how are we supposed to detect them. Picking what you like doesn't work.
Consider it the meaning of your life to understand what of it is truth and what not.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:11 PM |
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Yes, but acting differently is blind following.
But that's exactly what belief is all about. If you have proof you don't need to believe anymore, and religion is not a question of probabilities. Belief is a lot more than a tendency to prefer one option over another. Belief means certainty without proof. Take living in a state. You can either belief in the body of laws as a whole and in the good of it, and then you accept EACH law in it, whether you like it or not. Or you can start picking at specific laws, for example for taxes, in traffic and so on, but then you basically doubt the body as a whole - if people start breaking laws as they see fit the whole body of law gets undermined.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:13 PM |
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I don't agree. Blind following =/= faith. Faith is about _understanding_ what you believe in. If you don't, your faith is pointless.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:20 PM |
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I don't agree. Blind following =/= faith. Faith is about _understanding_ what you believe in. If you don't, your faith is pointless.
True. But discarding of things you don't understand or don't fit in your understanding of things is not faith either.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted February 13, 2009 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
If you have proof you don't need to believe anymore
That proof cannot be achieved.
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Take living in a state. You can either belief in the body of laws as a whole and in the good of it, and then you accept EACH law in it, whether you like it or not. Or you can start picking at specific laws, for example for taxes, in traffic and so on, but then you basically doubt the body as a whole - if people start breaking laws as they see fit the whole body of law gets undermined.
So the state works only if its citizens believes in its laws. Same thing in religion.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:29 PM |
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Quote:
Humans are stupid and for that there is no other cure than teaching them.
I'm sure you can some up with more platitudes, if you try.
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No, I don't, and no I didn't. Who tested that? Especially the impact of, depending of who's counting, the first 3 or 4., respectively.
I said the first 3 or 4, depending on how you count them (which is different depedning on whether you are Jewish or Roman-Catholic or Orthodox and so on, but your answer shows, that for you it's the first 3, so commandment 1, 2 and 3.
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Quote:
However, if you doubt one thing, there is no reason not to doubt EVERYthing - why should some things be truth and others lie and how are we supposed to detect them. Picking what you like doesn't work.
Consider it the meaning of your life to understand what of it is truth and what not.
Why would I? I'll either understand automatically and by default - after this life - or I will never understand. In both cases I don't need to now.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:31 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If you have proof you don't need to believe anymore
That proof cannot be achieved.
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Take living in a state. You can either belief in the body of laws as a whole and in the good of it, and then you accept EACH law in it, whether you like it or not. Or you can start picking at specific laws, for example for taxes, in traffic and so on, but then you basically doubt the body as a whole - if people start breaking laws as they see fit the whole body of law gets undermined.
So the state works only if its citizens believes in its laws. Same thing in religion.
And that's what we agree upon.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:45 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 13:49, 13 Feb 2009.
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Interesting conversation. I belive that you don't need evidence to BELIEVE in God, even many believer says they have evidence since they've gone through some miraculous event. I think I can't proof anything to anyone, just say that I do believe or I don't. If you ask my personal state, yeah, I do believe. But IMO it's not right to force faith, not at all, since it only does harm.
I was once asked "how can you say that God has given us free will, it's more like Satan who gave us free will since he gave us "option" not to obey God. And if Satan's evil and wants to harm people, why doesn't God just strike him dead? And why God lets people to die and "burn in hell" if he's so righteous?"
It was kinda hard to answer that since my parents are not believers and neither my friends were, so I have never "learned faith"... but I might consider that as a strenght nowdays.
But here is as I see it:
God does know what's best for us and therefor He would have wanted us to stay in paradise, but we chose otherwise. Satan was once an angel, if I remeber correctly he was kinda "high rank" angel, but he became rebellious. What's why he was banished. So, if he's bad and wants us to act like rebels as well, eventually to harm ourselves, why doesn't God stop him since He has kinda like infinite powers? Because then there would be just one choise, to believe in God. Well, isn't that good thing if we think it as believers? For us it would be, but since God is loving He wont force us to follow Him, and as I see it, that's why devil exists. And I see that God hopes us to follow Him, as we would want our daughters and sons stay by our sides, but He wont force us. It's not love to keep someone chained to just one option, then they'd act like robots.
Believe me, I'm far from perfect example of a believer, and have never consider myself as one (and I never will). I have been against christianity (and other religions) like 5 years or something, and I do BELIEVE it was God who made me change (through some serious events, I had to strike me down since I'm "bit" stubborn).
It is funny how un-logical the words of Bible were back then and how clear they are now.
You may think I'm a fool, weak or something... and maybe I am anyways, this is what I think.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted February 13, 2009 01:50 PM |
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*clears throat*
actually the whole bit about Satan being Lucifer (who IS a fallen angel) started with John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667)
Satan was originally "the adversary" and was not related to either fallen angels or the snake in the garden
oh and according to the Book of Job, God just smacked him around because he felt like it
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 01:57 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 14:03, 13 Feb 2009.
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actually the whole bit about Satan being Lucifer (who IS a fallen angel) started with John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667)
Satan was originally "the adversary" and was not related to either fallen angels or the snake in the garden
oh and according to the Book of Job, God just smacked him around because he felt like it
Well I don't know the real name of the Fallen one
as I see Book of Job, it was kinda ultimate test of his faith. Really harsh test. But in the end Job was granted much more than he had lost. Still, I have no idea why it had to happen so roughly  again this is IMO.
BTW people, do not think I'm making mod to replace Inferno faction because of my faith  (it's more like they are underpowered in my opinion)
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 03:00 PM |
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Doomforge:
Quote:
If you torture a imprisoned guy, you're just acting our of vengeance, because he's not a threat to you. Thus, you're at the same level as him.
Motivation matters. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If he aggresses against you, then it's okay to do the same to him - he gave up his right to be free from aggression when he aggressed.
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Psychopathic characters won't learn.
And that's why we have pleas of insanity (that are overused, though) and don't execute the insane.
As for DP and crime - you'll notice that poverty has a correlation with crime, and that the states with DP are the poorer ones. And the richer states don't have DP. And the crime rates between them are roughly the same. So I say the DP is working.
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Eccentric Opinion
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