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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 07:54 PM |
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Noah preached for 120 years before the flood came. That sounds like a lot of patience on God's part. God doesn't want anyone to perish but if you don't repent of sin you will go to hell.
Untrue. False claim.
Sorry, your cliam is false.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Genesis 6:3 has nothing to do with Noah. It's god's decision to LIMIT LIFE OF MEN TO 120 years, GENERALLY (they got older before that). You'll see that, if you read 6:1 to 6:4. It's pretty obvious. 6:5 starts a new chapter. In 6:13 god informs Noah about his decision to kill 'em all and that he is to build the Arch and so on. Noah didn't preach even 120 days, not to mention 120 years. That's just false.
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It has all the earmarks of a bet, just to prove Satan wrong (bold print for convenience):
Nope, God did not put up something and Satan put up something to risk on an outcome. Nope. Sorry, didn't happen. Noperrrzzzzzz.
God knows the end from the beginninging and therefore can't wager. 
Don't play dumb with me. I can read. If you read that in plain language
1) god's boasting to satan with Job and how godfearing and good he is
2) satan says, yeah but you are sponsoring him and you should see what happens if you remove your guarding hand and stop pampering him
3) And god says, ok, I dare you, show me, he's yours, but don't touch HIM.
That's as clear as water, in fact it's so clear that nowadays the serious theologists say that the Job part was simply taken from some other clan's lore.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 15, 2009 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:58, 15 Jul 2009.
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Genesis 6:3 has nothing to do with Noah. It's god's decision to LIMIT LIFE OF MEN TO 120 years, GENERALLY (they got older before that). You'll see that, if you read 6:1 to 6:4. It's pretty obvious. 6:5 starts a new chapter. In 6:13 god informs Noah about his decision to kill 'em all and that he is to build the Arch and so on.
I'm sorry, but you are clueless about the Bible. The Bible was not written in chapters and verses. The Bible was broken up into chapters and verses by monks for ease of reference and study.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God wss striving with man by his Spirit. God strived with man through the preaching of Noah.
Noah lived more than 120 years by a long shot. Therefore your "interpretation" of the verse is incorrect.
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Gen 9:28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
Gen 9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
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Gen 11:11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
Shem was a son of Noah in case you didn't know. If you read Genesis 11 you see everybody living longer than 120 years so your claim is false.
Man had become very wicked and God was striving with tem to bring them to repentance.
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Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuall
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Don't play dumb with me. I can read. If you read that in plain language
I'm not the one playig domb. You made a false claim. God did not make a bet with Satan. Satan has nothing he could put up to bet and God did not put up anything to bet. Please just stop lying about the Bible already.
You already admitted earlier you were just making things up because you think God had a false history written because he is "the winner."
Oh, and you said thre are no reasonable beliefs so why should anyone listen to you since you already said your beliefs are not reasonable?  My beliefs are reasonable.
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Noah didn't preach even 120 days, not to mention 120 years. That's just false
I really wish you would stop lying. I already quoted the verse that says Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Or are you claiming it took Noah less than four months to build the ark?
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2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
PREACHER, JJ, Preacher. One who preaches. It's ok for you to be anti-Christian but when you lie about stuff it can't be easily checked out or you defeat your purpose.
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That's as clear as water, in fact it's so clear that nowadays the serious theologists say that the Job part was simply taken from some other clan's lore.
Lol, your water is quite murky indeed!
No, the tale of Job was not borrowed from somebody else. Job is part of the Word of God.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 15, 2009 08:36 PM |
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Even with her given FREE WILL.
How free is a child that is always stopped by the parents to do something "bad" (you know how overprotective parents are anyway)?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 09:19 PM |
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@ Elodin
You are willfully making abd interpreting the bible as you see fit and it seems you have no clue what you are talking about.
Here's the complete Genesis text, English Standard version (Paragraphs ORIGINAL)
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1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever,(B) for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
5(C) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every(D) intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And(E) the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it(F) grieved him to his heart. 7So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8But Noah(G) found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
9These are the generations of Noah.(H) Noah was a righteous man,(I) blameless in his generation. Noah(J) walked with God. 10And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God(K) saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt,(L) for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. 13And God said to Noah,(M) "I have determined to make an end of all flesh,[c] for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make yourself an ark of gopher wood.[d] Make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. 15This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark 300 cubits,[e] its breadth 50 cubits, and its height 30 cubits.
See that? My spirit shall not abide in man forever. God declares that from now on men shall live only 120 years (of course at that point Noah was 500 or so already, so it was clear that those were meant who born from now on). Genesis 6:1-4 has NOTHING to do with the flood or the wickedness of humans, nothing whatsoever. God decides to destroy them all, except Noah, because he is righteous. 6:9 onwards Noah is introduced to us. IN 6:12 god takes another look and finds, yes, Earth is corrupt, so now he goes to Noah and tells him NOW, 6:13, I WILL DESTROY THE EARTH. Before this point Noah had no clue what would happen, so while he may have been righteous and while he may have been preached to people even 500 years, he had no clue about what would happen. However, Genesis doesn't say anything about Noah preaching, just that he was righteous which is to be expected if god wants to spare him.
About Job you ARE playing dumb. If you cannot read this dialogue for what it is, I'm sorry for you, because in that case you would have a problem reading a primer.
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6Now there was a day when(K) the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and(L) Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the LORD and said, "From(M) going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." 8And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth,(P) a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"
You see the bold print? God is BOASTING before satan with Job. No denying that, try as you might.
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9Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? 10Have you not put(Q) a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have(R) blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But(S) stretch out your hand and(T) touch all that he has, and he will(U) curse you(V) to your face."
Read that? Satan is DARING him, setting up a rather obvious bait, but still, the claim is there.
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12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Read that? OF COURSE God can't resist the bait, sure that Job won't budge, no matter what will happen. So he ALLOWS satan to play with Job for the whole purpose to prove a point to satan - no matter how Job will feel about it.
No sense in denying it.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 15, 2009 09:36 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:38, 15 Jul 2009.
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See that? My spirit shall not abide in man forever. God declares that from now on men shall live only 120 years (of course at that point Noah was 500 or so already, so it was clear that those were meant who born from now on).
Sorry, but a lot of people lived longer than 120 years after the flood, so your "interpretation" is incorrect. God was giving man 120 years to repent and then he would bring "the end to all flesh"
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Now, I'll quote some of the verses of poeple living longer than 120 years after the flood (aside from Noah.)
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Gen 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
Gen 11:11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
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Gen 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
Gen 11:13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
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Gen 11:14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
Gen 11:15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
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Gen 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
Gen 11:17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE LIVING LONGER THAN 120 YEARS AFTER THE FLOOD. So your claim is false.
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About Job you ARE playing dumb. If you cannot read this dialogue for what it is, I'm sorry for you, because in that case you would have a problem reading a primer.
I'm sorry but to make a bet both sides put up something to lose. Satan has nothing to give God and God did not put up anything. So there was no bet.
So your claim that Job and God made a bet is just another of your lies.
Now if you could show me a vers where Satan said: "Hey God, I'll bet my golden fiddle that I can make Job curse you to your face. "Ok, Satan, If you do I'll give you a mansion in heaven if you manage it." God and Satan shake on it." If you could show me that I'd say they made a bet. But as it stands your claim is baseless. Just another pathetic anti-Christian attempt to smear the character of God.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 15, 2009 10:09 PM |
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JJ wrote:
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God declares that from now on men shall live only 120 years (of course at that point Noah was 500 or so already, so it was clear that those were meant who born from now on). Genesis 6:1-4 has NOTHING to do with the flood or the wickedness of humans, nothing whatsoever. God decides to destroy them all, except Noah, because he is righteous.
FWIW, this interpretation is what I was taught in Church as a child/teenager.
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angelito
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posted July 15, 2009 10:20 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 22:25, 15 Jul 2009.
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Even with her given FREE WILL.
How free is a child that is always stopped by the parents to do something "bad" (you know how overprotective parents are anyway)?
Dear TheDeath...would you please be so kind and NEVER EVER quote any of my posts again and answer in such a senseless way so you normally would get punched in your face in real life for just talking crap all over the time?
If I would have the choice between getting cancer and have more discussions with you, I really have to think a lot of time.
I have never met a person similar to you in my whole life...it is just not possible to find the right words for the way you talk and destroy threads.
Does anybody else have an explanation for such kind of nonsense?
I talk about the given FREE WILL of God to all existing humans, and he talks about parents making rules for children.
I stick to the advice I gave you some days ago: You really need to see a doctor!!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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angelito
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posted July 15, 2009 10:24 PM |
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Why doesn't he prevent harm from innocent people then?
Because God did not make humans to be robots. You can chose to do evil or to do good.
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In my eyes, God has preferences.....
Nope. If you truly repent and obey the gospel of Christ he will receive you regardless of what you have done in the past.
Nice way again to prevent yourself from answering the main idea of a post.
Of course (many) human can chose...but NOT the girl! Maybe you try again to answer my question?
And how on earth a 3 year old girl can truly repent and obey the gospel of Christ?
And I can tell you one thing Elodin. There is NOTHING....really NOTHING you can say or write to convince me of an existing God as long as such things I described above are possible to happen on earth. I repeat: NOTHING!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 10:26 PM |
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Useless. He interprets the bible willfully and deliberately wrong and he's claiming not to recognize when 2 people are making a honor bet:
"Look at my fine follower. Isn't he working hard and believing obediently?"
"Yeah, but only because you fill him up with goodies. Change his luck, and he'll spit on you."
"Oh yeah? Ok, be my guest. Curse him with bad luck and desasters as much as you like, but don't touch him, then we'll see."
There isn't even much to interpret. Things are clear as anything. Nothing in the freaking Genesis tells about Noah preaching, not to mention 120 years. Nothing at all. The 120 years are mentioned in a completely different context. And that later Noah's line got older - well he was the new Adam, wasn't he?
Not to mention that god wasn't the rational type anyway.
EDit: angelito, about Death, I think it's his sex-phobia. He must compensate for that somehow.
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TheDeath
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posted July 15, 2009 10:28 PM |
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Dear TheDeath...would you please so kind and NEVER EVER quote any of my posts again and answer in such a senseless way so you normally would get punched in your face in real life for just talking crap all over the time?
You know I'm getting tired of your constant provocations or whatever else you spill at me. Not once have I taken this personal or anything, yet you continue to do so, and even insult lightly (such as "talking crap all over the time"). 
You could say, I raise points that shatter the "common sense" belief/religion. What's bad about that? I know some religious people that act the same way when you question their beliefs, they go into "angry defense" mode...
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I talk about the given FREE WILL of God to all existing humans, and he talks about parents making rules for children.
I'm sorry that you have serious problems understanding simple reasonable logic from my analogy.
God = parent.
Child = humans.
Takes a genius to find it out it seems.
you know that "criminals" and "rapists" are children too, in this case. They have free will too. How free would they be if they couldn't choose X and couldn't choose Y? In other words, how free would a "evil" person be if he couldn't be "evil"?
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angelito
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posted July 15, 2009 10:42 PM |
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You know I'm getting tired of your constant provocations or whatever else you spill at me. Not once have I taken this personal or anything, yet you continue to do so, and even insult lightly (such as "talking crap all over the time").
This is no insult, this is just the truth. But you don't seem to be able to see it. Sad for you. How about we would make a poll in the OSM about the "quality" of your posts, resp. the contribution value of the things you post? What do you think would be the result? Think about that and then come back again.
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You could say, I raise points that shatter the "common sense" belief/religion. What's bad about that?
You hardly raise any own points, you just try to find a point you can argue against. I once told ya so, some other members told ya so aswell. But still you did not learn from that and continue the same way. But as already said, I don't like having a devil's advocate in the OSM any longer. In the future, I won't respond to such posts anymore, but just react. Ask Mvass how this works.
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I'm sorry that you have serious problems understanding simple reasonable logic from my analogy.
God = parent.
Child = humans.
Takes a genius to find it out it seems.
Yeah, this shows you are as far away from a genius as the moon from the earth. Parents will always try to prevent ANY harm from their children, while God does NOTHING in that direction. God gives free will for the WHOLE life, while parents care and make rules for their kid till they are grown up. So where is the sense behind your analogy?
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you know that "criminals" and "rapists" are children too, in this case. They have free will too. How free would they be if they couldn't choose X and couldn't choose Y? In other words, how free would a "evil" person be if he couldn't be "evil"?
As usual, you miss the point (surprise). This is NOT about the free will of the rapist, but the harm of the 3 year old girl.
But why do I bother to explain? I am pretty sure, in your following post you will write something like: "What is a "harm"? Can we define that more clearly? And what means 3 years old? Was one of those 3 years a leapyear? If so, the situation would be completely different, because there was ONE more day in here life!"
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted July 15, 2009 10:46 PM |
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[Of course (many) human can chose...but NOT the girl! Maybe you try again to answer my question?
And how on earth a 3 year old girl can truly repent and obey the gospel of Christ?
Lol, I was supposed to know that was the main idea in your post?
Quite simply, as I have said many times, small children do not have to repent. They do not you have the ability to discern between good and evil. They are no accountable for sin.
We are all born with a fallen nature but are not guilty of sin until we know to chose good or evil. Babies will go to heaven if they die. The age anyone becomes accountable to God is dependant on the individual.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Jesus was displeased when his disciples tried kept little children from coming to him. He will surely receive them in heaven.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
People go to hell for the sins they have committed.
Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him
The children of the rebellious Israelites entered the Land of promise but Moses had to wander in the wilderness until all the rebellious parents died.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
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And I can tell you one thing Elodin. There is NOTHING....really NOTHING you can say or write to convince me of an existing God as long as such things I described above are possible to happen on earth. I repeat: NOTHING!
Sorry, God gave us free will. He did not make us robots. If God prevented you from doning evil things you would have no choice in how to act.
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Useless. He interprets the bible willfully and deliberately wrong and he's claiming not to recognize when 2 people are making a honor bet:
There is no concept of an "honor bet" in the Bible. Satan doesn't even have any honor. He has nothing to offer God and God did not put up anything in a bet.
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There isn't even much to interpret. Things are clear as anything. Nothing in the freaking Genesis tells about Noah preaching, not to mention 120 years. Nothing at all. The 120 years are mentioned in a completely different context. And that later Noah's line got older - well he was the new Adam, wasn't he?
Not to mention that god wasn't the rational type anyway.
Your last sentence shows your intentions in this thread. To smear God. You are anti-Christan and always love to take pot shots at Christians in every thread.
Sorry, I showed from the Bible tat Noah is calld a preacher of righteousness.
Sorry, the Bible shows that people continued to live more than 120 years so your claim that people only lived 120 years after Noah is false. It is impossible for your "interpretaion" of the verse to be correct in light of that fact.
Nice try but you need to up your Christian bashing game if you are going to face off against a Christian who knows the Bible.
No, Noah was not the new Adam. Everyone in the ark did not comee from him.
You accuse God of being irrational, but the word irrational applies to your arguments.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 15, 2009 11:02 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:06, 15 Jul 2009.
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This is no insult, this is just the truth. But you don't seem to be able to see it. Sad for you. How about we would make a poll in the OSM about the "quality" of your posts, resp. the contribution value of the things you post? What do you think would be the result? Think about that and then come back again.
That's really funny.
By the way I can show you polls with 90% people saying God exists.
That's the truth right?
Your argument.
EDIT: not to mention actually, that my posts have a "point" until you look at the name who posted them... 
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You hardly raise any own points, you just try to find a point you can argue against. I once told ya so, some other members told ya so aswell. But still you did not learn from that and continue the same way. But as already said, I don't like having a devil's advocate in the OSM any longer. In the future, I won't respond to such posts anymore, but just react. Ask Mvass how this works.
I explained my point in my previous posts.
I would appreciate it if you, instead of avoiding it with phrases that can be used anywhere, would at least quote it and say exactly where "there is no point". Because "you have no point at all" has no explanation whatsoever, even if you may think like it.
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Yeah, this shows you are as far away from a genius as the moon from the earth. Parents will always try to prevent ANY harm from their children, while God does NOTHING in that direction. God gives free will for the WHOLE life, while parents care and make rules for their kid till they are grown up. So where is the sense behind your analogy?
I already said, there are over-protective parents, and there are parents who don't care. Either way this is not about doing "what's best" for your kid. This is about giving him/her FREEDOM.
How many children are HAPPY that their parents watch their every step and don't let them do anything?
Honestly.
Every parent like that thinks he/she is doing what's best for the child, but how many children are actually FREE about it? Even some dictators think they're doing it for the best of the nation. Doesn't change the FACT that it's not freedom.
"What's best" or "free of harm" does NOT equal freedom, it equals personal interpretation. Hey you are already using freedom to "choose what's best for your child" (you wouldn't without freedom), why not give him/her the same freedom?
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As usual, you miss the point (surprise). This is NOT about the free will of the rapist, but the harm of the 3 year old girl.
Yes because you completely IGNORE the free will of "bad people" (that is open to interpretation) and only take into account the ones you want. You are not seeing the whole picture.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 09:15 AM |
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Elodin, talk as much as you want, it seems that even your ideas about the bible are biassed and wrong.
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1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said,(A) "My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever,(B) for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
You see anything mentioned there about Noah or that people were wicked? "The sons of god, meaning probably the angels (and note that this is one of the quotes in the bible that is cited by people who claim that aliens have landed on Earth sometime in the past) took their wifes under the humans (because the found them attractive)." This Gen 6:2. Gen 6:4 explains, that the sons of god made children with humans wifes, the mighty men WHO WERE OF OLD, the MEN OF RENOWN.
In between is 6:3. "My spirit shall not abide in man forever for he is flesh." He obviously doesn't like that mixing of things that leads to "mighty men who were of old." That's why he limits life span to 120 years for humans.
No wickedness here, no Noah. Rather simple, rather clear. Still YOU try to twist things so that it looks like god sent Noah with his whole family around to preach all over the world for 120 years. That's pure conjecture, because you would like it to be so, like, fair warning or something - but there was none, whether you like it or not.
Secondly, about Job. It seems that you have no grasp of language. It's not important what you think god and satan have or have not, important is only WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE. And what is written in the Bible is not difficult to read - except for you, it seems. I've quoted this part a couple of times now.
1) God boasts with Job (yes, he BOASTS, before satan, for everyone with the capacity to read).
2) Satan dares him, doubting the sincerity of Job's attitude.
3) God takes the bait, willingly, of course, not because he's dumb or anything, but because he's sure, and says, "BE MY GUEST. HE'S YOURS!"
While this is no bet in the sense that they put something on the line, it's GOD playing with JOB to PROVE A POINT TO SATAN.
It's like two neignours meet and one says to the other: "Look at what a fine son I have. He is completely loyal to me and obedient, through and through." (And you can imagine an "unlike than yours" or "in spite of your doings" mouthed silently after that.)
And then the other says: "Yeah, but that's only because you treat him well and pamper him and buy him anything he wants. How would it be if things were not so well for him?" (Which could be translated as "You BUY his loyalty with nice things and wealth for him - you're cheating!")
And then the first one takes the bait and says, "ok, do your best, do with him what you want, but leave him untouched (and you will see that I'm not cheating and his loyalty is honest)".
It's obvious, that this procedure is not easily compatible with "Satan" having been exiled - why would god allow him in his presence and allow him to torture one of his most loyal followers if they were on those terms?
Be that as it may, the facts are:
God makes a claim
Satan contests that claim
God agrees to prove or justify his claim
Now, people strain to explain this as an allegory that talks about the fact that even the best and most pious may have bad luck in life. IF the initial book of Job didn't have this introduction and was simply illustrating that fact and philosophying around it, this introduction, then, may have been made up afterwards to put things into context. If so, it would shed some light on how people explained angelito's problem, in this case not only why god allows that bad things happen to people but bad things happen to GOOD people, but in that case their views about god and satan would have differed from the Christian one - it's difficult to explain why god would give a snow about what satan said, so as an explanation of that "why" (followed by the assurance that the true believer doesn't lose faith because of that), it's a failure.
If on the other hand this is supposed to be "authentic", then there is indeed a problem here because you have to ask why on EARTH god gives way to satan's contest and allows a loyal follower of his to be so gravely tortured. A loving father certainly wouldn't do that with a beloved son of his, JUST BECAUSE ANOTHER GUY DARES HIM TO:
"My son is the best son you can wish for."
"Just because you are the best father a child could wish for."
"Not so. He loves me dearly and would never fail me."
"HA! Little do you know. Take away his precious toys and stuff and you shall see."
"Nah, really."
"Oh, come on. I thought you trusted into your son. Doesn't look that way to me now. What can happen?"
And at this point of the proceedings, If THE FATHER trusts THE SON, he'll send the other guy to where he belongs; since HE is sure about his son, HE doesn't need to prove anyone anything.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 16, 2009 09:34 AM |
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And I can tell you one thing Elodin. There is NOTHING....really NOTHING you can say or write to convince me of an existing God as long as such things I described above are possible to happen on earth. I repeat: NOTHING!
Sorry, God gave us free will. He did not make us robots. If God prevented you from doning evil things you would have no choice in how to act.
Exactly those statements make me even more think there is no God. If there would exist a God, and I would met him some day, you can be sure I would puke right in front of his feet (if he has some). No offense to the religious hardliners, but such an attitude ("I could help that little girl, but why should I? Let the bad guy have his free will and torture this little baby as long as he want. So are the rules! After she had suffered so hard, she will live in heaven, so all is ok again!") is more comparable to Stalin, PolPot or Kim Jon Il, but for sure not to an "all-loving-God".
You know, a football (soccer) player has free will too. If he breaks the rule, he will get punished. Even if he TRIES to jump into his opponent's feet without any chance hitting the ball, he will get a RED CARD. Even if he does NOT hit his opponent!
So when God is all knowing, he will KNOW T.J. Miller will rape and torture this little baby on tuesday, and that alone should be enough to punish him and let him go to hell immediately, without doing harm to the little one (he did not prevent T.J. from having FREE WILL, because WILL is in your head, action comes later! And he gave us free WILL, not free ACTION as far as I know!). Even we humans are able to punish "the try", and not only the "successfull act".
Why is an omnipotent granny not able to do so? Maybe becaue HE is a robot? Without any feelings? Yes...when I think a bit more about that....this seems to be the solution....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 16, 2009 10:23 AM |
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You can always try my omniscient/omnipotent definitions, angelito 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2009 12:23 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 12:25, 16 Jul 2009.
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Elodin, talk as much as you want, it seems that even your ideas about the bible are biassed and wrong.
Sorry, you decided to pick a translation that matches what you want to believe.
The Bible does not teach that the Spirit of God abides in every man so that translation is obviously wrong. In fact, it looks like that is a paraphrase version instead of a translation.
If you want to look at the original wording you can do so using a Strong's Concordance if you are not familiar with Hebrew. Below I have provided the Strong's numbers for the major words in the passage.
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Gen 6:3 And the LORD3068 said,559 My spirit7307 shall not3808 always5769 strive1777 with man,120 for that he1931 also7945, 1571 is flesh:1320 yet his days3117 shall be1961 a hundred3967 and twenty6242 years.8141
This is the word "strive."
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H1777
ãÌåÌï ãÌéï
dîyn dûn
deen, doon
A primitive root (compare H113); to rule; by implication to judge (as umpire); also to strive (as at law): - contend, execute (judgment), judge, minister judgment, plead (the cause), at strife, strive.
AND, AS I SHOWED FROM THE BIBLE LOTS OF PEOPLE LIVED MORE THAN 120 YEARS AFTER NOAH, CONTRARY TO YOUR FALSE CLAIM. Here are a few of the verses that prove you wrong once again.
Gen 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
Gen 11:11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
Gen 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
Gen 11:13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
Gen 11:14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
Gen 11:15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
Gen 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
Gen 11:17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
So your continued claim that no one lived more than 120 years after Noah is a lie. I say lie instead of misnderstanding because I have already quoted theses verses to you and you are ignoring them.
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Still YOU try to twist things so that it looks like god sent Noah with his whole family around to preach all over the world for 120 years. That's pure conjecture, because you would like it to be so, like, fair warning or something - but there was none, whether you like it or not.
Noah wa a preacher of righteousness dispite your continued claim.
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2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Can you read? Preacher. One who preaches. Why do you continue to lie? Noah preached.
LOL!!!! You continue to claim God and Satan made a bet. God did not wager anything and neither did Satan. Nope, nothing put up = no bet.
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Exactly those statements make me even more think there is no God.
Hey, if you'd rather be a robot, then you'd rather be a robot. I don't want to be a robot myself.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2009 01:19 PM |
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In fact translation is UNCLEAR, but modern translations tend to dismiss your views:
Contemporary English version:
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Then the LORD said, "I won't let my life-giving breath remain in anyone forever. No one will live for more than one hundred twenty years."
New International version
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Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years
New Living translation
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3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.”
New Century Version
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3 The Lord said, "My Spirit will not remain in human beings forever, because they are flesh. They will live only 120 years."
The translation is difficult. "Strive" means "aspire" or "pursue" as well.
For "Noah, a preacher of righteosness", is very unspecific and does just mean that Noah was someone who always preached righeousness which means, if the wicked neighbours did something sinful he would warn them against it, telling them what they did was wrong.
However, he didn't went round warning all the others from god's decision - in that case they would have written something like that: "god told noah from his decision to give humanity 120 years and told him (or "and Noah decided) to move around and preach, trying to convince people to change their wicked ways."
We don't read anything like that, so this is pure conjecture. Noah is Noah, and he was the only righteous one. That's why god decided to spare him. So he told him about what was coming and gave him the task to build the Arch.
About Job, you probably aren't even grasping the problem. So you may answer simple questions: What business does he have talking with satan at all? Why does he tell satan about fine Job? Why does he allow satan to bring all kinds of disasters over Job?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2009 01:41 PM |
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In fact translation is UNCLEAR, but modern translations tend to dismiss your views:
The problem is the "modern" translations you refer to are paraphrases, not translations. Somebody's idea of what the verse means instead of a translatio of the verse.
God's Spirit does not live in wicked men. God was condending/striving with man to try to get man to repent. One way God was doing this is through the preaching of Noah.
In fact prior to the New Covenant God did not come within anyone to dwell. He came upon prophets, kings, prists, and judges to do specific things through them.
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For "Noah, a preacher of righteosness", is very unspecific and does just mean that Noah was someone who always preached righeousness which means, if the wicked neighbours did something sinful he would warn them against it, telling them what they did was wrong.
It has to mean that Noah was preaching repentance. It makes no sense that he would be giving an intellectual discorse on righteousness. That is not what prophets did. Prophets called for repentance. They were not Harvard professors giving an abstract lecture.
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About Job, you probably aren't even grasping the problem. So you may answer simple questions: What business does he have talking with satan at all? Why does he tell satan about fine Job? Why does he allow satan to bring all kinds of disasters over Job?
I grasp that you said God and Satan made a bet but they did not.
The Bible does not answer the questions you asked.
The Bible does not say why Satan presented himself to God. Possibly he came to ask permission to tempt Job becase God had been protecting Job. God allowed Job to be tempted and Job came out a better man for it. He learned more about himself and more about God. He discovered that he had had some imperfect attitudes and repented of them.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 16, 2009 01:42 PM |
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I wish I had the absolute faith that either side of this debate seems to have. Faith is believing something without absolute proof, and I do not have that. Do I question if I have the correct answers? Of course I do. Because there are a lot more questions then answers.
I envy those who have that absolute faith. Regardless if it is faith that something greater then man does not exsist, or that there is nothing beyond this life. Regardless if it is faith that God is all powerful and all knowing, or that books written by man can be without flaw. What I would not do for that unwavering faith. It is not something I have, but that is not to say some day I won't. For now there are too many questions.
I've seen a spirit, so I believe there is something beyond this life. If there is something beyond this life, to me that means that there is something greater then man out there in charge of that afterlife. That and it is nice to think that those who are douches in this life gets their just desserts in the next.
____________
Message received.
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