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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted June 17, 2007 07:38 PM |
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I don't remember the bible ever talking about multiple gods.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted June 19, 2007 09:13 AM |
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Quote:
I don't remember the bible ever talking about multiple gods.
have you read it? have you even been near a church?
Father, son, holy ghost...
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John says to live above hell.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 06:54 PM |
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Great thread. I really like everyone's discussion. I have noticed one odd theme though. Most of the criticisms that I've heard of the bible come from really poor literary critiques. The bible has many appearant contradictions and is a very complicated set of books. It is not suprising that it is not understood at first glance. Get into it deeper and understand its contexts like you would with any historic piece of literature and you may appreciate its depths more.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 19, 2007 08:07 PM |
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its hard to appreciate it when people are using its message and its figures to kill other people.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 08:15 PM |
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That may be true, but people don't need much of a reason to be messed up sometimes. It's kinda like depriving yourself the joy of warm campfire because arsonists use fire to kill people. You shouldn't let others' mistakes keep you from gaining a correct understanding of the bible.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 19, 2007 08:24 PM |
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Quote:
That may be true, but people don't need much of a reason to be messed up sometimes. It's kinda like depriving yourself the joy of warm campfire because arsonists use fire to kill people. You shouldn't let others' mistakes keep you from gaining a correct understanding of the bible.
May i ask which is a correct understanding of the bible? Nowadays they´re like a dime a dozen. Everybody has an interpretation of the Bible and says it´s the right one.
Personally, i don´t like, (well, not anymore), a God that destroys people that use the free will He supposedly gave us because we think differently than Him or His followers
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Love is not blind, is retarded
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 19, 2007 08:36 PM |
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What I don't understand is this:
Who "talked" to God to get all the informations written in the bible? As far as I know, God or Jesus didn't wrote anything by themselves.
Did every authour who brought a piece to the whole bible claim "God talked to me and I wrote it down!"?
If the bible describes the whole History of mankind/universe and tells us how we have to behave and live our lifes, why didn't God wrote it as a whole and send it to us in any way?
Like he (allegedly) did with the 10 laws and Moses.
Any explanation?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 08:42 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 20:43, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
May i ask which is a correct understanding of the bible? Nowadays they´re like a dime a dozen. Everybody has an interpretation of the Bible and says it´s the right one.
Personally, i don´t like, (well, not anymore), a God that destroys people that use the free will He supposedly gave us because we think differently than Him or His followers
Well I first said:
Quote:
Great thread. I really like everyone's discussion. I have noticed one odd theme though. Most of the criticisms that I've heard of the bible come from really poor literary critiques. The bible has many appearant contradictions and is a very complicated set of books. It is not suprising that it is not understood at first glance. Get into it deeper and understand its contexts like you would with any historic piece of literature and you may appreciate its depths more.
So I doubt anyone is going to sum up all aspects of the Bible in a post. Regarding your post however, I take it you are refering to people going to hell for not giving their life to Christ (if I understand you wrong this won't be a good reply and maybe isn't anyways ). Some people can imagine a world in which people have free will and follow someone else's will completely, that just doesn't make sense to me. God gave us free will which led to sin. Sin led to us being seperated from God and the world being corrupted (and probably a lot more stuff). God them offers to save us from our mistakes but that whole free will thing means he won't force us to do anything. God doen't punish us for disagreeing with him. It's much more like a fire-fighter trying to save someone from a burning building. The fire-fighter wants to get the person out, but if the person refuses than it will be bad for them.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 19, 2007 08:50 PM |
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istari...
your example might have worked... if the firefighter built the house with flamable material, put the person there without asking them, then gave them a box of matches and a tank of gasoline
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 08:56 PM |
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Quote:
What I don't understand is this:
Who "talked" to God to get all the informations written in the bible? As far as I know, God or Jesus didn't wrote anything by themselves.
Did every authour who brought a piece to the whole bible claim "God talked to me and I wrote it down!"?
I don't want to do all the literary work for you, but i can help get you started.
2 Timothy 3:16 states that “All scripture is inspired by God….” In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to “know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, … but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
Quote:
If the bible describes the whole History of mankind/universe and tells us how we have to behave and live our lifes, why didn't God wrote it as a whole and send it to us in any way?
Like he (allegedly) did with the 10 laws and Moses.
Any explanation?
So I think you are saying, why is the Bible written as compilation of books instead of one big book? God used many authors over many time periods is a quick answer. I'm not sure why that matters though?
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Tenaka
Famous Hero
Makes sense
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posted June 19, 2007 08:59 PM |
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Edited by Tenaka at 20:59, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
What I don't understand is this:
Who "talked" to God to get all the informations written in the bible? As far as I know, God or Jesus didn't wrote anything by themselves.
Did every authour who brought a piece to the whole bible claim "God talked to me and I wrote it down!"?
If the bible describes the whole History of mankind/universe and tells us how we have to behave and live our lifes, why didn't God wrote it as a whole and send it to us in any way?
Like he (allegedly) did with the 10 laws and Moses.
Any explanation?
Umm...Well, Jesus didn't have a dairy, of course. I believe the story of his life was written down by his followers. (I think there are four books, each by one apostle?)
And, God did not 'send' the 10 laws to Moses. Moses wrote it down what God said.
And I could come up with dozens of answers to why God didn't write it down...That's why this is becoming a bit of a meaningless discussion...All the good arguments have been used by now. These are questions that can't be answered. The Bible was written more then 2000 years ago? Why did the Romans build tombs, if they could've used pyramids? 
Don't answer that question, please...
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Houseism of the week:
As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
your example might have worked... if the firefighter built the house with flamable material, put the person there without asking them, then gave them a box of matches and a tank of gasoline
You are saying that God set us up to fail. I wouldn't know how to offer free will and prevent a person from failing.
The fact that God created us knowing that we would fail, then sacrificed himself to give us a way out tells me it must be worth it.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 19, 2007 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
your example might have worked... if the firefighter built the house with flamable material, then gave a box of matches and a tank of gasoline to the one he claims that he wants to save
However, the firefighter didn't light it up. So? If the other person wants to suicide, why should the firefighter stop him? Just because the firefighter thinks suicides is wrong (like God for example) doesn't mean the person (humans) thinks the same (could be evil).
About questions with "Why God does this..." or "Why God created the world this way?":
- if it would've been different you would say the same
- if you read chapter 2 of the book I linked before (on page 30? ) you can associate us with the fish in a bowl. Does the fish know what the 'humans' outside the bowl is doing, or actually, why is he doing those things? (incomprehensible for the fish).. So we, as fish, can't understand God's actions or world, even though some are metaphorically explained in some Bible/whatever else.
- furthermore you can ask the same questions as an atheist: "Why is the world this way or the laws of physics?", "What makes you think that the world has randomly evolved, including how it came into existence (all the energy/laws of physics BEFORE the Big Bang, or where did time come from?), and created YOU that can "imagine" these things?
I'm not saying that God is an answer to the above -- but questions like "Who created God?" "Why did God create the world this way?", have atheist equivalents of "How did everything came into existence? (including time, matter, universe, energy and all the LAWS that these things obey)" and "Why is this world set up this way (again, including everything like laws of physics, existence of matter/energy)?"
For atheists: Unless you are a person who knows all sciences perfectly I doubt you have proven yourself everything that others have done (for example, I doubt you have been to space to walk on the moon).. so why do you "trust" those science words (even if you don't understand them). To confess I usually don't understand complex mathematical formulas.
Besides "proofs" are, again, just a limited option. Why? Suppose that we, as a whole specie, are all handicapped and brain-damaged, so as to be stupid. But only one man was protected by the radioactive clouds that caused this. He won't be able to "prove" to us many things because we are not capable of understanding them (since we're brain-damaged).
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 19, 2007 09:11 PM |
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not quite...
try to look at christian dogma as an outsider (which should be the ultimate test for any belief, imho)
according to dogma, god is: omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent
in reality, its more like "omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent: pick two"
yeah, free will pretty much ensures that we will make some wrong choices... but if a god knows all, then he already knows who, when and how, will fail (especially as a timeless being)
its like having a parent that takes the kid to the playground, tells the kid to only play in the sandbox (but leaving the kid to its own free will) then goes and creates all sorts of painful/deadly traps around the sandbox... and pretty shinny toys as bait... loving parent? more like mad scientist studying behavioural patterns
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Tenaka
Famous Hero
Makes sense
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posted June 19, 2007 09:18 PM |
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You're exagerating...Let's look at it from the opposite point of view.
If a parent removes all sharp objects from the house, puts all dangerous things on a high shelf, etc, etc, one day, when the child grows up and/or does come into contact with one of these things...Do I need to finish the sentence?
Sure, a lot of things have gone wrong in the past...Countless amounts of things. But we learned something from that, didn't we? Or at least a bit...
If God would be like the way you think he should be - if he existed-, the world would be made out of jelly.
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Houseism of the week:
As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 19, 2007 09:20 PM |
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Quote:
its like having a parent that takes the kid to the playground, tells the kid to only play in the sandbox (but leaving the kid to its own free will) then goes and creates all sorts of painful/deadly traps around the sandbox... and pretty shinny toys as bait... loving parent? more like mad scientist studying behavioural patterns
Yeah but we are not "kids" and should think of our consequences.
Besides He DOES warn us (or Did). If we let our greed or curiosity sneak over the warning, we should expect consequences.
If you force a criminal to be good will only make him worse. (and absolutely not less evil)
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be kept by understanding.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 19, 2007 09:25 PM |
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uh
i don't think god should be anything... all i am saying is that the abrahamic god is not what the bible says, whether or not he/she/it exists, is irrelevant...
the only "proof" we have that the abrahamic god exists, is the OT ...and it has been wrong about many things (at least historically speaking) ...so people are basing their lives solely on a text that is known to be wrong
if you study history a bit, you will see that christianity was neither original, nor groundbreaking.. just adapted well enough to expand (and no, asking people to live a righteous life is not the harshest requirement i can think of... for two or three centuries, there was a cult more popular than christianity, that required men to castrate themselves)
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 09:31 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 21:55, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
according to dogma, god is: omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent
And much more. But I'm not at all sure we agree on what these words mean or what a being who possesses these characteristics would look like/do.
Quote:
in reality, its more like "omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent: pick two"
yeah, free will pretty much ensures that we will make some wrong choices... but if a god knows all, then he already knows who, when and how, will fail (especially as a timeless being)
Ok. That all seems true, but I'm not sure what you think that means.
Quote:
its like having a parent that takes the kid to the playground, tells the kid to only play in the sandbox (but leaving the kid to its own free will) then goes and creates all sorts of painful/deadly traps around the sandbox... and pretty shinny toys as bait... loving parent? more like mad scientist studying behavioural patterns
I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here, and I'm not sure I get it all. I take it that you think God created traps to lure us away from him. I just can't get there though. God being callous enough to lure us away from Him doesn't seem to fit with Him loving us enough to die on the cross to bring us back to Him. I'm not sure what you've seen in life to lead you to the conclusion that God wants us to fail. I've seen that failing is easy enough without any divine assistance.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 19, 2007 09:40 PM |
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Quote:
i don't think god should be anything... all i am saying is that the abrahamic god is not what the bible says, whether or not he/she/it exists, is irrelevant...
Ok, now we are getting into a literature review. How do you think the abrahamic God differs from the God of the Bible?
Quote:
the only "proof" we have that the abrahamic god exists, is the OT ...and it has been wrong about many things (at least historically speaking) ...so people are basing their lives solely on a text that is known to be wrong
I have done a fair amount of Biblical study and am curious about what you are refering to. Could you please be specific about the historical inconsistencies you are refering to?
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 19, 2007 09:55 PM |
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heh
roman records of office, don't match with biblical ones, for starters... and romans were pretty ...ummm... exact, when it came to such things
as for why the bible god (abrahamic god) can't be omnipotent (all-powerful) omniscient (all-knowing) and omnibenevolent (all-loving) at the same time... i am pretty sure i addressed this somewhere, but here i go again:
if god is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then he can't be omnipotent, or he would do something to keep ALL people from danger/hurt/etc
if god is omniscient and omnipotent, then he can't be omnibenevolent, or he would have done something to keep ALL people from danger/hurt/etc
if god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then he obviously isn't omniscient, cause the world is pretty messed up (in this case, he can't be timeless either, cause then he would be omniscient by default)
if people are wrong about these three extremes, then how can we be sure they are right about ANYTHING concerning god?
all religions were formed out of two very simple and very basic needs:
 knowing death is not the End
knowing that all the [insert censored adjective of your choice] will pay in some way for all the grief causing others
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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