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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2009 09:55 PM |
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Quote:
The US Supreme Court said it is a religion and the atheists take things by faith that they can't prove.
The US Supreme Court saying so doesn't make it true. Plessy v. Ferguson, anyone?
And not even the Supreme Court said anything about faith.
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Eccentric Opinion
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 19, 2009 09:59 AM |
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Quote:
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You really think that atheism is a Religion?
And if Men and Women were created in the Image of God, then doesn't that mean that God is a Man and a Woman?
Yes. The US Supreme Court said it is a religion and the atheists take things by faith that they can't prove.
Now we got a problem here. In germany, neither atheist nor agnostics are refered to any kind of religion. And I have to underline that. So which "law" is thew right one?
If you believe it or not, one can live a life without any relation to religion. Incredible huh?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 19, 2009 10:03 AM |
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This is probably the wrong time to but in, but...
Maybe the problem here is not over whose right and wrong, but it is a matter of perspective. Elodin, following the US supreme courts decision to make Atheism a religion means that he views it in a certain way.
However, most people here haven't followed the decision, or are not part of the US and so that decision had gone either over their heads or doesn't apply to them.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2009 11:07 AM |
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In the US the intention is simply to make sure you have no disadvantage when you are not part of a religion. Your beliefs are protected there and the Supreme Court wanted to make sure that not believing in any religion was protected as well. There isn't really much more to say about it.
I see that Elodin has written a lot while I was away, but actually without any content - it seems he summarized history or something, out of context or downright wrong. A rather striking example is this here:
Elodin: Quote:
JJ:Quote:
Don't you see that you could just believe in Hitler as well?
Unlike you, I've never said one word against the Jews.
No, I couldn't support Hitler. It is you who said all children should be taught your religious beliefs with the force of the state.
Of course the last sentence is ridiculous, but that's all fog grenades anyway. 3 posts later it mutates to:
Elodin: Quote:
I'm not twisting anything around. He said I was a believer in Hitler, which is a lie.
That's typical, but let's have a look now at the actual context in which I made that Hitler comparison:
JJ Quote:
The only thing I see is that you stand for calling people moronic because they won't fall on their knees for praying to someone who'd judge homosexuals and members of other religions to eternal pain at some unspeakable place.
Don't you see that you could just believe in Hitler as well? Where will the Jews land? Hm? Do they believe in JC? Nope. So where will they land? And the homosexuals? Where will they land?
You, of course start to babble of murdering rapists who escape human justice.
Compared to the number of other poor suckers landing in hell those are a small minority, surely.
Note, that I actually asked some questions that were not answered - of course not.
However there is no escaping from them:
Where will the unfotunates land, those who did never believe in Jesus, but are members of some other religion or just a Christian by name? Where will those unfortunate homosexuals land, those that do not repent their being gay?
Elodin: Quote:
God loves everyone and is offended when people do them wrong.
If god loves everyone, then how come so many will be sent in hell - for something WE wouldn't people not even send to a weeklong bootcamp for?
More to the point, why should we WORSHIP a being like that? Willingly. You never answered that question. Even more to the point, why should we believe a BOOK that tells us that kind of nonsense?
Why would it be wrong, when WE had laws that would see homosexuals and followers of all except one religions burned at the stake, and why would it be right if some god did the same thing, only for eternity? Wht reason would we have to worship such a monster?
Alternatively, why would we believe a book that told something like that?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 19, 2009 11:50 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:56, 19 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
Of course the last sentence is ridiculous, but that's all fog grenades anyway. 3 posts later it probably mutates to:
The fact is of course you said I was a believer in Hitelr which is a lie. The fact is it is you who have made anti-Jewish and anti-Christian slurs.
In fact you said there are no reasonable beliefs.
And the fact is you said many times that children should not be allowed to be taught that one religion is true. Fore example you said:
-a child should be "protected" from "being brain-washed into separating peolpe into Jews, Catholics, Muslims and so on "
-that raising a child to be "a follower of any religion" is not ok.
- brainwashing is "if you teach ONE and only ONE claiming that one to be right."
-In response to Mystical statment that parents should be allowed to teach their child their religion he said, "Ah. So now you are advocating the right for parents to brainwash their children into everything they deem fit."
- "IF we ever want to have peace in this world, IF we want people to stop bashing in their skulls collectively, we must draw the line at indoctrinating children with "religious racism"." He defines religious racism as saying anyone is going to hell or that one religion is the true religion.
- "children should not be subject to membership [be allowed to join] of religious organisations or "churches".
- "My opinion is that society has to protect the children - and ultimately ITSELF - from all kinds of extremism, especially that of the religious fanatics. Since "real" believers think that THEIRS is the only right way, they necessarily believe that all the others are lost in error and damnation which isn't all too helpful in creating peace and tolerance as history shows."
- "RELIGIOUS "racism" is not only allowed, it's protected as well - every preacher can tell his community that the unbelievers are damned and will burn in hell." "And under the same umbrella it is allowed for adults to poison children with this venom [that one religion is true.]"
- "What I don't want is, if we keep to your example, that people who believe in WHATEVER won't teach their children, that there is only WHATEVER and everyone not believing in WHATEVER will ...[be] LOST.
- "There would be nothing out of the ordinary with laws protecting children from religious fanatism - mental rape is still rape, and rape is forbidden."
- " Protect the rights of religous people? Absolutely as long as they are within the LAWS (*plays broken record*). Is the hateful nonsense in the name of some god or another less then hateful nonsense? Is the hateful nonsense against some religions less then hateful nonsense?" Here is is advocating making it illegal to preach homosexuality is a sin or anyone is "lost" because he considers that as preaching hate.
- "In fact I would even go farther and ask, Don't we have the DUTY to try and make sure than children are raised in a way we approve of as a society, ....I mean, how are we going to change things, if we don't keep the children from being, well, indoctrinated with hate patterns?"
- "Now look at religion - are children taught "religion" as in "history and main 'points' of world religions, their historical relevance and so on and so forth", in a comparative way? Not as far as I know. As far as I know there is no "objective" social counterweight in terms of religion, who teaches children that all religions are equal,"
- " Do you think that would help racial integration, general understanding and so on? Do you think further that it would be helpful, if parents were making their children members of the local "AllWhiteSupremacy" order shortly afzer birth?
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Note, that I actually asked some questions that were not answered - of course not.
I have answered those questions many times before. I make no secret and offer no apology for my beliefs.
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Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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If god loves everyone, then how come so many will be sent in hell
Free will. Make your choice.
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More to the point, why should we WORSHIP a being like that? Willingly. You never answered that question.
I don't have a problem with God being the judge of the world. He is a lot wiser than you and I and sees our thoughts and intents. He experienced life as a man (Jesus Christ) and is the perfect judge. God and man in one being.
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Even more to the point, why should we believe a BOOK that tells us that kind of nonsense?
You are quick to condemn me for saying my beliefs are true and yet you claim yours are true. You say my beleifs are nonsense and that there are no reasonable beliefs.
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Wht reason would we have to worship such a monster?
You are the one defending the "right" of a mother to murder her baby.
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Alternatively, why would we believe a book that told something like that?
Believe what you want to believe. You already said all beliefs are unreasonable.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 19, 2009 12:28 PM |
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Wow ... 184 pages and still going strong. 
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What will happen now?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 19, 2009 12:51 PM |
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Wow ... 184 pages and still going strong.
yeah, but it's survived on delusion and mania, as far as i can see.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2009 01:06 PM |
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Quote:
The fact is of course you said I was a believer in Hitelr which is a lie.
That's a lie, and you know it. So you are a liar, willingly and deibertely. Until now I thought you'd only twist and turn the truth and accusing people of being all kinds of things.
But at this point at he latest you've crossed the line to direct and outright lying. Your believe in your god cannot be that strong if you deem it necessary to lie - not that it can be strong in the first place with all that twisting and turning and attacking and provoking.
I don't like liars. And I don't talk to them. Their talk isn't worth squat.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 19, 2009 01:10 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Wow ... 184 pages and still going strong.
yeah, but it's survived on delusion and mania, as far as i can see.
No it has survived on talking in circles (on both sides  ), intentional (or unintentional) misreading of posts (on both sides), and the fact that this exact debate has gone on for a LONG time before Heroescommunity was even a gleem in Val's eye .
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 19, 2009 04:46 PM |
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Quote:
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The fact is of course you said I was a believer in Hitelr which is a lie.
That's a lie, and you know it. So you are a liar, willingly and deibertely. Until now I thought you'd only twist and turn the truth and accusing people of being all kinds of things.
I quoted what you said to me. You accused me of being a believer in Hitler eveidently because I believe the Bible that homosexual conduct is sin and that Jesus is the way of salvation.
Quote:
Don't you see that you could just believe in Hitler as well? Where will the Jews land? Hm? Do they believe in JC? Nope. So where will they land? And the homosexuals? Where will they land?
It is you who made anti-Jewish statements, not me. It is you who said the State should not allow children to be "brain-washed into separating peolpe into Jews, Catholics, Muslims and so on."
I believe in freedom of religion. Each person should be free to believe what he wants and to teach his religion to his children.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 19, 2009 06:43 PM |
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I agree with you there about Freedom of Religion, Elodin. Everyone should believe in whatever they wish. And I do not believe that you are a follower of Hitler. Hitler was a complete Madman and was the scourge of the Century.
But how is Homosexuality a sin? People are born Homosexual, and it is not any choice. And nowadays, you can't just say the magic words and people are then straight. And what is Jesus Christ the Savior from? Homosexuals aren't evil at all. Just look at Hitler. He hated gays and look what happened to him.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 19, 2009 07:28 PM |
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Quote:
But how is Homosexuality a sin? People are born Homosexual, and it is not any choice. And nowadays, you can't just say the magic words and people are then straight. And what is Jesus Christ the Savior from? Homosexuals aren't evil at all. Just look at Hitler. He hated gays and look what happened to him.
The Bible says homosexual conduct is sin. God defines sin, not me. Each person must repent of (turn from) his sins. A person can be delivered from any sin by the Spirit of God. Sometimes deliverance is instantaneous and sometimes it occurs over a period of time.
Jesus can not only deliver us from the penalty of sin but from the power of sin in our daily lives.
Quote:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I'm not saying homosexuals are evil. I'm saying each person (me included) must repent of our sins. Turn from them. That is not to say that we will be perfect in this world. But when we fall we repent. We get back up and start going in the right direction again. And spiritual grwoth takes time and nutrition (spiritual disciplines-prayer, fasting, meditation, Bible study, fellowship, teaching from spiritual leaders, speaking in tongues, ect.)
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 19, 2009 10:50 PM |
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But, How is Homosexuality a sin? You never even answered my question.
And the Bible is just a book wrote by Humans, I'm not going to let a book lead my live and tell me what to do.
And what is Jesus Christ our Savior from? You never answered that.
And how come Jesus Christ Is our Savior?, He's dead.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 19, 2009 10:55 PM |
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Quote:
The Bible says homosexual conduct is sin. God defines sin, not me.
Blind faith is blind faith
Anyway, why would God fault someone for being how GOD MADE HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE? Should he deny what he is? Should he deny God's design then? Isn't that close to deying God himself?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 19, 2009 11:07 PM |
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Quote:
But, How is Homosexuality a sin? You never even answered my question.
Yes I did. I said God defines what is sin. God said homosexual conduct is sin.
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And the Bible is just a book wrote by Humans, I'm not going to let a book lead my live and tell me what to do.
So you have faith that the Bible is only a book written by men. So what?
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And what is Jesus Christ our Savior from? You never answered that.
Yes I did. I said he delivers (saves) from the penalty of sin and from the power of sin in our daily lives.
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And how come Jesus Christ Is our Savior?, He's dead.
No, Jesus rose from the dead in a glorified human body.
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Blind faith is blind faith
Atheists have blind faith, not me. I am filled with the Spirit of Christ. I know my God lives. 
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Anyway, why would God fault someone for being how GOD MADE HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE? Should he deny what he is? Should he deny God's design then? Isn't that close to deying God himself?
No one is born with any sexual fetish. Point out the gene that makes anyone want to have sex in high heels, in handcuffs, in public, with animals, with children, with someone of their own gender, prefer blondes, prefer redheads, ect. There would have to be many thousands of such genes and they simply do not exist.
God's design is male and female. Huaband and wife.
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Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 19, 2009 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
No one is born with any sexual fetish
Everyone is born with a sexual preference, though.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 20, 2009 12:37 AM |
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Quote War!
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Blind faith is blind faith
Exactly, Elodin you're suffering from it, make ur own choices in Life, no one can EVER go WITHOUT making a sin, it's just biological.
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Anyway, why would God fault someone for being how GOD MADE HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE? Should he deny what he is? Should he deny God's design then? Isn't that close to deying God himself?
EXACTLY! Why would a Supreme and Powerful God create life and the Punish it and saying that LOVE IS A SIN. It makes no sense!
Good point DagothGares  You receive a Thumbs Up and a High Five from Me
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Yes I did. I said God defines what is sin. God said homosexual conduct is sin.
Where is your proof? And YOU Never told me How HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN! And when did he say this? If God says it and the Bible tells of it are 2 Completely DIFFERENT Sources.
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So you have faith that the Bible is only a book written by men. So what?
Umm... Dude I don't have Faith I know it for a FACT. How exactly does a god wright a book if you know him so well?
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Yes I did. I said he delivers (saves) from the penalty of sin and from the power of sin in our daily lives.
How?
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No, Jesus rose from the dead in a glorified human body.
That sounds about as logical as a good Stephanie Meyer book.
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Atheists have blind faith, not me. I am filled with the Spirit of Christ. I know my God lives.
dot dot dot. ATHEISTS HAVE NO FAITH! That's the point of being an Atheist! If you God does exist, then where is he!? Why isn't he here on Earth!? Where's your HARD EVIDENCE of God!?
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No one is born with any sexual fetish. Point out the gene that makes anyone want to have sex in high heels, in handcuffs, in public, with animals, with children, with someone of their own gender, prefer blondes, prefer redheads, ect. There would have to be many thousands of such genes and they simply do not exist.
God's design is male and female. Huaband and wife.
Then why does one of my Really good friends prefer Blondes? Why is one of my friends Bisexuals and why is she intelligent in ur POV? Do you mean Sexual Preference? Because then that can never change!
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Vini Vidi Vici
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 20, 2009 02:33 AM |
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Exactly, Elodin you're suffering from it, make ur own choices in Life, no one can EVER go WITHOUT making a sin, it's just biological.
Christians don't continue to live in sin. We may sin from time to time but it is not a lifestyle. Like I answered to DagothGare, atheists have blind faith, not Christians.
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And YOU Never told me How HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!
Do you have a reading problem? I already answered that question from you twice. SIN IS SIN BECUSE GOD SAYS SO. HE DEFINES WHAT SIN IS. SIN IS GOING AGAINST WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED.
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And when did he say this? If God says it and the Bible tells of it are 2 Completely DIFFERENT Sources.
No, the Bible is the Word of God. It says many times in the Bible that homosexual sex is sin.
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So you have faith that the Bible is only a book written by men. So what?
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Umm... Dude I don't have Faith I know it for a FACT. How exactly does a god wright a book if you know him so well?
It is impossible for you to KNOW the Bible is not the Word of God. Atheists claim to know a lot of things that they just take by faith, not fact.
God inspired the writers. The Spirit inspired the words they wrote.
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2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
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2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
And I am filled with the Spirit of God and speak in tongues. The Word of God and the Spirit of God witness to my spirit that the Word is true.
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Yes I did. I said he delivers (saves) from the penalty of sin and from the power of sin in our daily lives.
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How?
Again, it seems you have poor reading comprehension skills. I answered this question also. By the Spirit of God. By the believer exercising spiritual disciplines, which I also gave examples of.
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That sounds about as logical as a good Stephanie Meyer book.
Sorry, you have faith that Jesus did not rise from the dead. I know otherwise. I'm filled with the Spirit of God. I have my proof. You have your faith.
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dot dot dot. ATHEISTS HAVE NO FAITH! That's the point of being an Atheist! If you God does exist, then where is he!? Why isn't he here on Earth!? Where's your HARD EVIDENCE of God!?
That is not true. You said Jesus did not rise from the dead. You have only your faith, no facts to back your claim.
Atheists (your brand) say God does not exist. You can't prove it. You say it by faith.
Atheists have to believe the universe produced itself from absolute nothing with absolutely no cause. Talk about faith!
Athiests have to believe life come from inanimate matter. No proof, only faith.
Atheists have to have a lot of faith to be atheists.
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Then why does one of my Really good friends prefer Blondes? Why is one of my friends Bisexuals and why is she intelligent in ur POV? Do you mean Sexual Preference? Because then that can never change!
Like I said, show me the genes for all the many thousands of sexual fetishes that exist.Sexual fetishes are usually connected to something the person experienced during childhood.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 20, 2009 04:47 AM |
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dot dot dot
dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot
dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot
DOT!
You clearly have never researched what Atheism is. It is not the belief of Evolution or the Big Bang Theory. It is just simply saying that I do not Believe in a God.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 20, 2009 07:27 AM |
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I want all sides to step back for a moment and answer what should be a rather simple question.
Why do you believe what you believe?
No quoting from books (of any kind), no 'because god (or whatever) does this or that'. Not something somebody else told you, but why YOU personally believe what you believe. Sadly I expect a lot of 'because it's the truth'..but I am hoping that this may actually get people to see each others views...
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Message received.
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