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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 12:52 PM |
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Well, Inquistion, just for checking whether we mean the same thing, is basically a PROCEDURE, and one that has actually never ended - it just got renamed in the beginning of the 20th century. Note that the actual Pope has been the presiding cardinal of the follow-up office.
Initially there was no office or special organisation for this procedure - this was created only when protestantism and with it a different sort of heresy came: this is what is called Spanish and Portugese Inquisition which is only PART of the whole phenomenon.
We talk about the victims of the whole procedure, naturally.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 27, 2009 02:20 PM |
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This is the point where you make your point.
The point is you claimed orphanages and social services came from Islam but Christianity was around before Islam and emphasized social services.
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WTH? Well, probably you mean anti-theist organisations and the point of these organisations is debunk theism. I mean there are lots of secular socialist organisations.
Well, that is not what you had said. You said atheist organizations were feeding the hungry and running homeless shelters. The only atheist organizations I know about are just trying to repress the rights of others to worshp freely instead of serving their fellow man.
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As I said: the scientific method is about questioning everything until you get an answer. Questions in middle ages leads to burning.
I'm no defender of Catholicism but that is simply untrue.
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Dude, it's not the KILLINGS the cursed inquisition is notorious for, it's the TORTURE, and the torture in the name of god at that.
Jesus did not authorize torture dude. Show me a New Testament verse that says to torture sinners. It ain't there.
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"Millions" isn't incorrect, if you look at the victims who died as a direct consequence of the workings of the Church.
Millions would be very incorrect.
But you would need to talke of hundreds of millions if you are going to bring in the religion of atheism into the discussion.
Oh, and the Bible says no murderer knows God.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Jesus warned of false believers who would be wolves in sheeps clothing.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 02:54 PM |
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Jesus did not authorize torture dude. Show me a New Testament verse that says to torture sinners. It ain't there.
Yeah, so? We are'n talking about Jesus here, but about the Church. And about a population most of whom couldn't read.
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"Millions" isn't incorrect, if you look at the victims who died as a direct consequence of the workings of the Church.
Millions would be very incorrect.
Sadly, not.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 27, 2009 03:09 PM |
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Yeah, so? We are'n talking about Jesus here, but about the Church. And about a population most of whom couldn't read.
We are talking about who is a Chrisian, who is not a Christian, and what Christtians do and are allowed to do.
You've made claims about murders being Christians and those claims are simply false as I have clearly shown from the Bible. The Bible defines who is a Christian and who is not.
The New Testament governs Christianity and does not authorize the church to kill or torture anyone or punish sin in any way beyond disfellowshipping a person who says he is a Christian but who persists in living in sin.
Again, show me any New Testament scripture where Jesus or the apostles said for the church to kill or torture anyone or punish any sinner for his sins. It is not there. In fact it says anyone who hates or murders is not a Christian.
The church is to preach repentance of sins, not to punish sins.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 03:24 PM |
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Yeah, so? We are'n talking about Jesus here, but about the Church. And about a population most of whom couldn't read.
We are talking about who is a Chrisian, who is not a Christian, and what Christtians do and are allowed to do.
We talk about that in the other thread.
Here we talk about something else, actually, and that's the number of dead people THE CHURCH is directly responsible for.
I'm not disagreeing with you that THE CHURCH hasn't been teaching what it should have been teaching, and that it acted (and still acts) in a way it should not have been acting (and should not act).
However, that doesn't mean, a majority of them believed they'd do the right thing, which is a pretty important point.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted August 27, 2009 04:58 PM |
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We talk about that in the other thread.
Here we talk about something else, actually, and that's the number of dead people THE CHURCH is directly responsible for.
I'm not disagreeing with you that THE CHURCH hasn't been teaching what it should have been teaching, and that it acted (and still acts) in a way it should not have been acting (and should not act).
However, that doesn't mean, a majority of them believed they'd do the right thing, which is a pretty important point.
A person is not a member of the church of Jesus Christ unless they are born again of water and of the Spirit and following his teachings.
I have already proven no Christian murders so the church of Jesus Christ is responsible for no murders. Some atheists pretending to be Christians have done horrible things while pretending to be Christians. Jesus predicted there would be false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.
Now, in the past 100 years atheist tyrants have been responsible for the deaths of over 250 million people. Far more than all other religions have killed in all of recorded history.
So if you want to talk about religions killing maybe you could explain why atheists who rise to power tend to be mass murderers.
I would also like to point out that not all atheists are mass murderers, obviously. It is certainly possible for an atheist to be a good moral person who cares about his fellow man.
I would also like to point out that Christianity holds life to be sacred and teaches that the strong should help the weak. This runs counter to what the conclusion an atheistic world view would lead one to reach. If man is merely a random sack of random chemicals reacting in a random manner then mankind is nothing special and the idea of "survival of the fittest" would indeed be the proper philosophy.
Contrast that to the teachings of Jesus to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, ect, and to pray for, bless, do good to even one's enemies. From the perspective of a godless universe one should destroy one's enemies when one gets the chance.
Many of the atheist tyrants also had the idea of no only not helping the weak but actually killing them. The elderly, handicapped, those who they considered to be "sub-human" all must die in the idea of bettering society and breeding a superior human being.
Unfortunately this idea of eugenics is now at least partially acceptable in western societies. The elderly are now under pressure to lay down and die because that can't "contribute to society." On of Obama's advisors says a baby should not be considered humans for at least two days after birth in order to give society a legal chance to kill handicapped babies.
Planned parenthood was founded by a racist woman who believed blacks are sub-human and said abortion would be a good way to get rid of them.
The state of Oregon (which has mandated "universal" health care) has denied treatment to some "terminally ill" patients but offered to pay for sssisted suicide.
Perhaps it is these philosophies of atheism that caused men like Pol Pot and Stalin to become what they became and to murder so many people and burn down churches, ban Bibles, ect. The idea that human life holds no intrinsic value and can be snuffed out at will. After all, morals are only relative, and not absolute, right?
Anyways, if you are wanting to talk about deaths caused by religions I think you would find a much more fertile ground in the religion of atheism than in Christianity because as I showed, no Christian murders anyone.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 27, 2009 05:06 PM |
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I have already proven no Christian murders so the church of Jesus Christ is responsible for no murders. Some atheists pretending to be Christians have done horrible things while pretending to be Christians. Jesus predicted there would be false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.
(...)
Anyways, if you are wanting to talk about deaths caused by religions I think you would find a much more fertile ground in the religion of atheism than in Christianity because as I showed, no Christian murders anyone.
Epic post. You just made my day. I don't think I've seen a more absurd statement on this bord since Luc gave his preaching on lazer guns in Heroes 5.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 05:09 PM |
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If you show me the great book of atheism that calls for killing people I'll gladly follow your invitation.
Until then I'll rather discuss the million who died in the name of Christian religion, even though their great book says differently.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted August 27, 2009 05:10 PM |
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Well, that is not what you had said. You said atheist organizations were feeding the hungry and running homeless shelters. The only atheist organizations I know about are just trying to repress the rights of others to worshp freely instead of serving their fellow man.
Government organisations are rather non-religious. the red cross has nothing to do with religion and therefore is atheist, since it is devoid (ab) of religion (religio), so it's areligious or atheist as some people prefer. I'm pretty sure there are a few other organisations about which you can say the exact same thing.
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I'm no defender of Catholicism but that is simply untrue.
Tell that to the franciscan orders in the 13th century. Tell that to the order of catharism. Tell that to all protestant groups.
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The point is you claimed orphanages and social services came from Islam but Christianity was around before Islam and emphasized social services.
I am rather unconvinced of your claim that christianity started social services.
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religion of atheism
Atheism is not a religion. religion stems from the latin word 'religio', which would mean honorary service, so a religion was something you devoted yourself to, whih you revered r did service to. No one does that to an absence (ab) of religion (religio), so the areligious don't have a religion, neither do the atheists, since they are the same in some people's eyes.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 27, 2009 05:11 PM |
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And the fact is modern science was born in the Christian West, not in the Orient or Middle East.
The Chinese beat Europa to automatic factory's by about 2 millenniums.
Modern science was born long before we know where it was. The record of it is likely long lost, the actual first society to question everything was destroyed randomly along with other pioneers.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted August 27, 2009 05:12 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 17:14, 27 Aug 2009.
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Atheism is not a religion. religion stems from the latin word 'religio', which would mean honorary service, so a religion was something you devoted yourself to, whih you revered r did service to. No one does that to an absence (ab) of religion (religio), so the areligious don't have a religion, neither do the atheists, since they are the same in some people's eyes.
So atheists can't devote themselves to er... "social services" right? 
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The Chinese beat Europa to automatic factory's by about 2 millenniums.
automatic factories? Are you kidding? Factories maybe but automatic? By 2 millenniums? What have you been smoking?
Unless you're saying aliens came down and built some which are now lost? 
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Darkshadow
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Cerise Princess
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posted August 27, 2009 05:18 PM |
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Nope, chinese didn't invent automated factories.
And the "factory" as we know it, did not come from china.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 27, 2009 05:24 PM |
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automatic factories? Are you kidding? Factories maybe but automatic? By 2 millenniums? What have you been smoking?
Give me a small river, some wood, some time, some people, and something to make. Fully automatic is a completely different issue, that took its bloody time to get.
So instead of having 2-3 people hammering you use the force of a river and some clever use of the laws of physic, that is what they did.
The bloody point is that its still 2 millenniums before the claimed Christian goodly evolution.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 27, 2009 05:28 PM |
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If you show me the great book of atheism that calls for killing people I'll gladly follow your invitation.
Until then I'll rather discuss the million who died in the name of Christian religion, even though their great book says differently.
No one killed by following a commandment of Christ. 
You can not produce a single New Testment command that says to kill, torture, or punish sinners.
Many have killed following atheistic philosophies.
It is unfortunate that some people want to falsely accuse Christians of things that people who are not following Christ have done.
If we could just get everyone to love their neighbor and do good to them as Jesus said the world would be a virtual utopia.
You can talk aobut false Christians murdering all day long, but no true Christian is a murder, as I have proven. True athesits have.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted August 27, 2009 05:31 PM |
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automatic factories? Are you kidding? Factories maybe but automatic? By 2 millenniums? What have you been smoking?
Give me a small river, some wood, some time, some people, and something to make. Fully automatic is a completely different issue, that took its bloody time to get.
So instead of having 2-3 people hammering you use the force of a river and some clever use of the laws of physic, that is what they did.
The bloody point is that its still 2 millenniums before the claimed Christian goodly evolution.
Don't know what you are reffering to, but if you mean watermill's, they were used back in Ancient Sumeria and were not invented in China.
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alcibiades
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posted August 27, 2009 05:36 PM |
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No one killed by following a commandment of Christ.
But they sure did kill a lot in his name.
So basically, when the Pope demanded that Bruno was burned for herecy in 1600, that ment the Pope was not Christian, right?
Let's just contemplate on that for a while.
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Elodin
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posted August 27, 2009 05:46 PM |
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No one killed by following a commandment of Christ.
But they sure did kill a lot in his name.
So basically, when the Pope demanded that Bruno was burned for herecy in 1600, that ment the Pope was not Christian, right?
Let's just contemplate on that for a while.
So liars killed in the name of Christ. And? I already proved they were not Christians. Don't condemn Christians for what people pretending to be Christians did.
I'm not Catholic and wouldn't say that all the popes were Christians. Jesus predicted wolves in sheeps clothing, like I said.
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alcibiades
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posted August 27, 2009 05:52 PM |
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Please, PLEASE don't use the word prove in that way, would you? Making a statement is not proving anything. But anyway, let's stay on-topic.
I understand the point that you want to make is that according to the script you should not kill. That's fine. But you cannot argue that anyone who kills thus is not a christian. That's simply an ivalid statement.
It's historic fact that during the years 1200-1600, the Vatican church under the rule of various popes were directly involved in killing numerous people around the world, being that on crusades, inquisations, witch hunts or something else.
Writing off these people as "atheist" is plain nonsense. You can't pull out one specific point from the bible and say that all who doesn't follow this are not christians. And it's not that I disagree that killing is a pretty un-christian thing to do, but it doesn't work that way. Religion is an institution, and Christianity (Catholicism) is an institution based in the Vatican under the pope, and saying that all these people are not christian (or better even: Atheists) just because they did something you don't like is naïve at best.
You may not agree with the way religion has been executed at some points, and I understand that, I certainly don't. But that doesn't make these religious people who did these acts less religious - even if they acted by another interpretation of the religion than you have. Of course you can say they didn't abide properly to the religion, which is then your interpretation, and that's fine if it works for you.
But hey, it also says in the Danish Law that you're not allowed to kill or steal. I guess that means that all criminals are in fact not really danish but just pretenders, so we should send them out of the country.
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TheDeath
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posted August 27, 2009 06:01 PM |
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But hey, it also says in the Danish Law that you're not allowed to kill or steal. I guess that means that all criminals are in fact not really danish but just pretenders, so we should send them out of the country.
No it means they are not followers of the law, which is true. The law doesn't say who is Danish or isn't, it says who is a law-abiding citizen and who isn't -- who is guilty and who is innocent. And it's true.
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Kraken
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posted August 27, 2009 09:22 PM |
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I have already proven no Christian murders so the church of Jesus Christ is responsible for no murders. Some atheists pretending to be Christians have done horrible things while pretending to be Christians. Jesus predicted there would be false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.
(...)
Anyways, if you are wanting to talk about deaths caused by religions I think you would find a much more fertile ground in the religion of atheism than in Christianity because as I showed, no Christian murders anyone.
Epic post. You just made my day. I don't think I've seen a more absurd statement on this bord since Luc gave his preaching on lazer guns in Heroes 5.
LOL! Good point Alcibiades.
Oh! And btw, Long Live the Religion Thread!
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