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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 25, 2007 09:35 PM |
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Quote:
I see this thread as an interesting place to discuss things like God, evolution, and meaning. It's a neat place to look at hard questions. you can really see people's passion and intensity when they write about these topics. I have been surprised by some of the posts defending Christianity, and several defending science. There have been some bold claims that people know for sure that there is not a god and that the Christian God cannot exist. This was usually done by incomplete logic (free-will being controlled?), or confusion on what the Bible says. A common theme during the Renaissance was that the more science grew, the more religion would shrink. Science has grown a lot since then, and religion is growing faster than ever. I have seen some posts trying to prove that God has to exist. I know God exists, like I know when something is funny. I can't test it or measure it, just know it. If we new everything there was to know about God, could test Him and measure Him, he would a small God indeed. I am glad that God has some mystery to Him, and is more complex than I can fully understand. I am content knowing about God what He has revealed about Himself. Unfortunately that means I (or anyone else) can prove that God exists. If I could it would take the faith out of spirituality. So I am sad that so many people think they need proof before they believe and may miss out on a loving relationship with God. But I hope that the people who read this thread aren't confused into thinking that God can't exist. I certainly can't prove that God does exist, but there is also no conclusive evidence/ reason that God doesn't exist. The only purely logical statement we can say about God is that he could exist. And when you feel like something is missing in your life and you can't put your finger on it, wonder if that is God asking to have a relationship with you. You were created to have a relationship with God, and that is where you will find meaning.
That's why I never visit the other side of the monitor...this contaradiction can go on for years because neither science nor religion will be able to absolutely vanquish the other.The thory of evolution will never take the faith of the faithful.And the faithful will never convice the scientist that they're wrong.As for me,I believe in God,and if TitaniumAlloy or anyone else doesn't,I don't see why others would like to argue with that.If TA doesn't believe in Him anymore,it's his choice,and this thread can go on without an end to the conflict.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted June 25, 2007 10:29 PM |
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If people would have stopped discussion hundreds of years ago, we prolly wouldn't have reached that high level we have currently.
Discussion is nothing bad. Always keep in mind, someone who has a specific point of view to a topic probably didn't hear too many opinions from other points of view.
A way to change someones's opinion (point of view) is to show him other possibilities. If someone never heard about other colors except blue, he will of course answer: "blue" if u ask him what his favorite color is. Show him/her some other colors and ask again. He may like "red" better than blue now.....probably...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted June 25, 2007 10:46 PM |
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Yes, but you have to admit, there's been like, what, 50 pages total(counting deletions) and I don't think anyone's changed their stance. However, I do agree, discussion is a good thing. Just to me, this whole thread seems like the two people who just stand there slapping each other in turn.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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Runawaylove
Tavern Dweller
VeryVeryBored
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posted June 26, 2007 12:01 AM |
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You did what I will not bring you down will ur disision but i love god.
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BORED
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted June 26, 2007 01:03 AM |
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Quote:
You did what I will not bring you down will ur disision but i love god.
Why do you love him? Did he do something good to you? Or do you love God because it will bring your soul into heaven?
Or are you just brainwashed, cause everyone around you, parents, friends and prayers told you that you love God?
No matter if you believe that God exists or not, one thing is clear. He/She/It or whatever God is has nothing to do with the ancient fairy tales like Bible, Tora or Koran. Those books are made up by men to control your life.
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TitaniumAlloy
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Professional
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posted June 26, 2007 04:50 AM |
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@ Istari:
I think that allowing god to not be 'all loving' would be easier for believers, as it gets god off the hook of the question of evil and others. It tends to be whatever makes believing god easier becomes the truth, so it wouldn't surprise me that in the future the story does change once more to allow god to not be all powerful (as some say, claiming that god could not possibly have done anything to interfere with free will), all knowing (the easiest to accept) or all loving (as you have alluded to)
All it takes is for god to hate for a second, and he is not all loving.
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John says to live above hell.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 26, 2007 11:16 AM |
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Why I believe in Him
I was never "forced" to believe that God exists,or go to the church,or even pray.I did pray,but not because I didn't know any better.I also heard about Darwin's theory but I thought: "If we were the direct descendants of hte monkeys,how come monkeys stil exist?" But then I heard at school that there was another animal who's evolution splited in two sides: the monkeys and the humans.I just can't believe that.How come we are the only animals ever to actually think,communicate,in other words,how come we have intelligence?I've been told about the ten commandments at religion,and I try to obey them because I don't think stealing,killing etc is right,not because my family told me stories about a big man in the sky that will send me to hell if I don't.When I actually started praying,I had a good feeling,like it was great to pray for others not because you wil go to heaven if you do because the heaven\hell story does not influence me.Since then I started to believe that God exists and when I prayed I asked Him that my prayer should be listened if it was His will to be.I prayed for "the time to go on faster at school" beacuse we had a new math teacher and I was never all that good,and he was yelling at us sometimes,calling us idiots and when I had to solve an excercise or something I was simply frightened.The time did"go faster" or at least I thought so.It was like a minute was passing like a second and so.My class'classmaster,who was also our biology teacher,after teaching us a lesson about the evolution of the animals,told us that at religion we learned that the human,and all creatures were created by God and that we should believe what we want.Most of the ones that reply to this thread claiming that they don't believe in God have a start: "I was raised as christian and forced to read the bible blah blah blah".I was not.Maybe I believe because I didn't reject the idea,because I wasn't forcced to accept it.I may be regared as a "goofy kid" but what I just said is the truth.By the way,just because I believe He created us doesn't mean I read the bible or go to the church or worship Him in any way.Most of you rejected the idea of God because you were told to worship him.As for the "eternal question": Why doesn't God end all the evil and suffering etc etc?"I think that I have an answer similar to the one to the question:"Why did God allow Adam and Eve to taste the Forbidden apple?"I think it's because we were granted free will,and God wants us to believe in Him because we actually want to,not because we were told so.In other words,I think He wants us to be good,to do what is right without doing it for a reward"going to heaven etc",because the ones who try to be good just because of that are pretty selfish.I try to be good because I just want to be good,and fell that it's right.as I am certain,TitaniumAlloy or someone else will most likely disagree,but I am proud that I have told my point of view that[no matter what] won't change
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 26, 2007 01:12 PM |
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Moral standards have been around before Jesus walked on earth. There is no need for a "god" to convience me from being a "good person".
Do you think "atheists" have different morals standards than christians? Of coruse I think stealing is bad, killing is wrong, slapping kids is wrong, telling lies is wrong etc... But this I've learned myself during growing up. Not from church, bible or from a priest.
And about the "intelligence" thing.
Of course other animals are inteligent too. But you have to admit, the very first people we have knowledge of "Neandertaler and all those..) weren't as intelligent as e were, right? Their intelligence grew with their experience and therefor they could "teach" their children more. And the biggest reason for our grown intelligence and the major difference between us and our "brothers" (monkeys) was the day when we started to "walk upstanding". From that day on, we were able to stand/walk/run AND use our hands for other things. And I think our hands are mostly the reason why we are "dominating" this planet.
The monekys never were in the need for that. They kept living in the trees. They had to use their hands for "movement". They didn't need to find something which helps cutting their food into pieces, coz they were vegetarians. They didn't need to find something which helped them killing animals (weapons), coz they were vegetarians.
So a species won't adapt if their is no need.
Humans had to adapt, coz they left the trees. They turned into meat eaters.
But this whole adaption took a very very long time of course. We talk about million of years. From "Jesus" till today, we talk about 2000 years. That's what many people forget in such discussions.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 26, 2007 01:32 PM |
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Quote:
Moral standards have been around before Jesus walked on earth. There is no need for a "god" to convience me from being a "good person".
Do you think "atheists" have different morals standards than christians? Of coruse I think stealing is bad, killing is wrong, slapping kids is wrong, telling lies is wrong etc... But this I've learned myself during growing up. Not from church, bible or from a priest.
And about the "intelligence" thing.
Of course other animals are inteligent too. But you have to admit, the very first people we have knowledge of "Neandertaler and all those..) weren't as intelligent as e were, right? Their intelligence grew with their experience and therefor they could "teach" their children more. And the biggest reason for our grown intelligence and the major difference between us and our "brothers" (monkeys) was the day when we started to "walk upstanding". From that day on, we were able to stand/walk/run AND use our hands for other things. And I think our hands are mostly the reason why we are "dominating" this planet.
The monekys never were in the need for that. They kept living in the trees. They had to use their hands for "movement". They didn't need to find something which helps cutting their food into pieces, coz they were vegetarians. They didn't need to find something which helped them killing animals (weapons), coz they were vegetarians.
So a species won't adapt if their is no need.
Humans had to adapt, coz they left the trees. They turned into meat eaters.
But this whole adaption took a very very long time of course. We talk about million of years. From "Jesus" till today, we talk about 2000 years. That's what many people forget in such discussions.
This thread brought a lot of confusion to me and I'm sure others feel the same.I was christened as an orthodox but my mom gave a book on Jesus that looked like a comic book to attract young readers,and after reading[thhat took a while,considering I was about six or seven]I became convinced that Jesus spoke the truth.I found out later that the book was a baptiste book.Then my mom started reading books from "Martorii Lui Iehova"[Yahweh's Witnesses] who claimed that there is a Creator blah blah blah and spoke about how He will ressurect everyone who was faithful when the Apocalypse will come etc etc etc and told me to read it.At it's beginning there was the always problematic concept on how the Universe was created.It kept insisting on the fact that we can't be the result of an accident.I was confused.After seeing this thread I was even more confused.I do not try to change anyone's belief but this thread does that,confusing me and others,because we'll never be able to prove is God exists or not,and I really didn't know what to think after seeing this thread.I decided to stay as I was before I saw this thread,and I don't encourage anyone to do anything.The point is,this thread is "philosophical" as rated but it can go on for years,because TitaniumAlloy's statement started some sort of religious "war" if I can call it that way.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 02:16 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 14:17, 26 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
@ Istari:
I think that allowing god to not be 'all loving' would be easier for believers, as it gets god off the hook of the question of evil and others. It tends to be whatever makes believing god easier becomes the truth, so it wouldn't surprise me that in the future the story does change once more to allow god to not be all powerful (as some say, claiming that god could not possibly have done anything to interfere with free will), all knowing (the easiest to accept) or all loving (as you have alluded to)
All it takes is for god to hate for a second, and he is not all loving.
A great thing about the Bible, is that it is clearly not designed to make believing in God easier. It is the Truth, even when that Truth is confusing and hard to understand. Some passages appear to be comtradictions. I do not understand every word written in the Bible (no one does) but I do know that God loves me. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all loving. That has not changed in the past 2000 (or even 4000) years and will not change in the future. Complicated Biblical passages make God hard to understand and we don't understand completely (try explaining yourself to an ant and see how far you get). But being complicated doesn't mean its a contradiction or false.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 02:21 PM |
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Quote:
Why do you love him? Did he do something good to you? Or do you love God because it will bring your soul into heaven?
Or are you just brainwashed, cause everyone around you, parents, friends and prayers told you that you love God?
No matter if you believe that God exists or not, one thing is clear. He/She/It or whatever God is has nothing to do with the ancient fairy tales like Bible, Tora or Koran. Those books are made up by men to control your life.
I love God because God loves me. He has done countless things in my life for my benefit that I am not even aware of. The biggest is dying on the cross so I can have a relatnioship with Him, even though I am messed up and He is not. For some of my personal spiritual interaction with God, check out the thread "Spiritual Encounters."
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 02:27 PM |
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From TA first post:
Quote:
No one can completely and entirely prove god to be true or false/Quote:
Quote:
No matter if you believe that God exists or not, one thing is clear. He/She/It or whatever God is has nothing to do with the ancient fairy tales like Bible, Tora or Koran. Those books are made up by men to control your life.
That's a big claim, and inconsistent with even TA. If you want your post to be productive try not making huge claims with no evidence or supporting reasons. Why do you think that God cannot be the God of the Bible?
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 26, 2007 02:32 PM |
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Quote:
From TA first post:
Quote:
No one can completely and entirely prove god to be true or false/Quote:
Quote:
No matter if you believe that God exists or not, one thing is clear. He/She/It or whatever God is has nothing to do with the ancient fairy tales like Bible, Tora or Koran. Those books are made up by men to control your life.
That's a big claim, and inconsistent with even TA. If you want your post to be productive try not making huge claims with no evidence or supporting reasons. Why do you think that God cannot be the God of the Bible?
I agree with you,Istari,and I wish I wouldn't have found this thread at all,because I,like you,believe in Him,and posts like the ones you've quoted brin confunsion and tend to shatter my belief.I hope god will forgive the ones who doubt his existence.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted June 26, 2007 02:45 PM |
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Quote:
That's a big claim, and inconsistent with even TA.
lol.
Actually I was saying that because of the story of Christianity (and Abrahamic god) that they have made it impossible to disprove.
How do you disprove something that is, by definition, impossible to disprove?
I was saying you have to use your judgment, which I believe is what Xarfax is saying very clearly.
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John says to live above hell.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 02:52 PM |
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@ Drakon-Deus:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this thread. Try not to be shaken though. Believer's do not have to fear accurate science because the Truth is on our side. There will always be people who are angry with God, or try to lead you away from the faith because they don't get. You can actually learn a lot from defending your faith, you have to really know what you believe in order to defend it. If that is too much for you now though, don't worry. You don't have to keep up with this thread, and when you grow more in your faith there will be other opportunities for you to defend what you believe.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 02:58 PM |
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Xarfax's post clearly states that the God the of Bible... does not exist. He is not saying that you can't physically prove it one way or another so he personally believes that the God of the Bible does not exist. There is no reference to his own judgement at all. He states as a fact that which is not a fact.
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angelito
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posted June 26, 2007 03:07 PM |
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If your belief get's shattered by postings of atheists, you don't seem to have a strong belief Drakon. Just accept there are different opinions about that topic.
You sayed yourself some posts above, no side is able to proove its opinion.
What I find intersting if u look back the whole thread is, the "atheist" side never states any facts without having at least a tendency of an evidence. While on the opposit the "believers" throw in "facts" in nearly every post which are just subjective assumptions.
For example:
I love God because God loves me ----> How you know God loves you? You HOPE he does, but how can you know?
God has done so many things for me in my entire life ----> How you know it was God? Couldn't it just be coincidence? It is sooo easy to hold God accountable for anything that happened in your life. But the reasons could be different aswell, right?
God has done this because he...... ----> How can anyone know the motivations of God?
I could go on and on...just read this thread back yourself.
With science, it is different. Most of the scientific laws you probably have faced in your life already. If u take an apple in your hand, hold your hand out of your window and turn your hand upside down, you know what will happen. The apple will fall down to the ground. We call that gravity. Not sure if anyone thinks God makes the apple falling down. Next try u hold your baby outside the window. The gravity won't care about an apple or a baby. It just "works". How about God? The baby is for sure innocent. Only because the person who has this "free will" is able to let this baby falling down to the ground, God won't interfere?
If you look back what happened in your life and what u were refering to "God's" work. Have u tried to find a different answer to what could be the reason why this or that happened?
As I posted above...if u only know "blue", everything u see will have blue color of course. Even though u heard there are different colors, and even though u recognize those things you can see have different looks (brighter, darker), you still call all of them "blue".
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 03:08 PM |
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I went back and looked at your original post again TA. I was interested in your summary statement at the end which you bolded in red:
Quote:
Either way, it being possible that there is only one god, it is possible that we only have the one short life. Therefore must decide wisely on how to use it and in doing so we can be said to gamble on god.
No one can completely and entirely prove god to be true or false, so if you don’t believe the best case scenario is one short life, if god doesn’t exist, and the worst case is if god does exist, and you are destined to an eternity of pain and suffering. On the other hand, if you do believe, the worst case scenario is if god doesn’t exist, and you live one short life with the disadvantages that come with religion and worship, and the best case is if god does exist, and you have the gift of eternal life.
Whether or not you believe in god, it’s your choice.
The writting is a bit confusing so let me simplify, than you can clarify my understanding of your statement. It sounds like you are weighing the pro's and con's of each belief.
Believing in God
if you're right- you go to heaven
if you're wrong- spend life worshiping for no reason (although the reported happiness and general over health is higher for spiritual acitive people than for those who don't believe.)
Don't believe in God
if you're right- die and get eaten by worms.
if you're wrong- eternity in Hell.
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angelito
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posted June 26, 2007 03:18 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:20, 26 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
Believing in God
if you're right- you go to heaven
....and what are you doing there the whole eternity?
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if you're wrong- spend life worshiping for no reason (although the reported happiness and general over health is higher for spiritual acitive people than for those who don't believe.)
That I doubt completely.
Quote:
Don't believe in God
if you're right- die and get eaten by worms.
I wonder what happens to the body of the believers....
Quote:
if you're wrong- eternity in Hell.
At least you won't catch a cold...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 03:27 PM |
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Quote:
If your belief get's shattered by postings of atheists, you don't seem to have a strong belief Drakon. Just accept there are different opinions about that topic.
You sayed yourself some posts above, no side is able to proove its opinion.
What I find intersting if u look back the whole thread is, the "atheist" side never states any facts without having at least a tendency of an evidence. While on the opposit the "believers" throw in "facts" in nearly every post which are just subjective assumptions.
For example:
I love God because God loves me ----> How you know God loves you? You HOPE he does, but how can you know?
God has done so many things for me in my entire life ----> How you know it was God? Couldn't it just be coincidence? It is sooo easy to hold God accountable for anything that happened in your life. But the reasons could be different aswell, right?
God has done this because he...... ----> How can anyone know the motivations of God?
I could go on and on...just read this thread back yourself.
With science, it is different. Most of the scientific laws you probably have faced in your life already. If u take an apple in your hand, hold your hand out of your window and turn your hand upside down, you know what will happen. The apple will fall down to the ground. We call that gravity. Not sure if anyone thinks God makes the apple falling down. Next try u hold your baby outside the window. The gravity won't care about an apple or a baby. It just "works". How about God? The baby is for sure innocent. Only because the person who has this "free will" is able to let this baby falling down to the ground, God won't interfere?
If you look back what happened in your life and what u were refering to "God's" work. Have u tried to find a different answer to what could be the reason why this or that happened?
As I posted above...if u only know "blue", everything u see will have blue color of course. Even though u heard there are different colors, and even though u recognize those things you can see have different looks (brighter, darker), you still call all of them "blue".
You haven't read my other thread on spiritual enounters yet. Also much of the "science" I've seen posted are pretty poor assumptions dsiguised as science. In either case, it is not a fair debate because most the people in this thread to not understand the limitations of science. Science is one tool for understanding the world, it is not the only tool. If a carpenter only tool is a hammer, than every he see's becomes a nail to him. If your only tool for understanding the world is science, you must accept that there is a ton that you will never understand. Science can only apply to that which is observable and measurable. It is great is dealing with such things. It is not even perfect at that though. There are so many scientific facts that have been disproven. My biologoly book in high school was out of date enough, that we read how it was scientifically proven that it is impossible to clone animals (after an animal had already been cloned). The responsibly scientist will always admit that thier evidence never proves anything, just supports it. When we are 95% sure that a piece of evidence is not due to random chance we say it supports our claim. We can never say that our claim won't later be refuted with additional information. Here's the real problem though. Spirituality is not a nail. The hammer of science will never completely figure it out, it just doesn't apply. Try to measure the funniness of a joke or your love for your children. We are more than what can be measured. So if a misguided scientist try to disprove God, he must use facts because he is assuming that measurable facts can solve that question. When a believer states that he know God loves him, he does not need facts because he does not assume such things are measurable. Understanding faith and spirituality takes a deeper type of understanding than what is measurable.
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