|
|
Shadey
Adventuring Hero
|
posted July 10, 2007 03:38 AM |
|
|
|
mvassilev you seem to use the word "proved" very loosely in this thread. Why don't you give a detailed explaination of your definition of the word. It seems to me that your arguement is self defeating.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 03:52 AM |
|
|
"proved"
Simple past tense and past participle of prove.
"Prove"
To demonstrate that something is true; to give proof for.
There's no proof that the Bible is completely true. I grant that some parts of it are based on historical events, but there is no proof of any miracles.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Shadey
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 04:06 AM |
|
|
Quote:
"proved"
Simple past tense and past participle of prove.
"Prove"
To demonstrate that something is true; to give proof for.
There's no proof that the Bible is completely true. I grant that some parts of it are based on historical events, but there is no proof of any miracles.
What proof are you talking about? Scientific evidence? First hand experience with a recorded history of events? Just because you don't believe someone who saw miracles happen doesn't mean they didn't happen.
As far as science being completely true, you'll never find a reputable scientist that will claim science is 100% objective truth. I don't understand why you blast religion and the Bible when the basis of science is that nothing is certain. The best you'll ever get with science is a 99.9% confidence level using statistics.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 04:10 AM |
|
|
Is there any proof of Christian miracles outside of the Bible? Because I wouldn't really trust something that comes only from one source.
It should be possible for any scientific concept to be concievably disproved. For example, the classical theory of gravity could be disproved if we found a case in which objects floated upward. No similar thing can be said for religion. You can pray, but if your prayers aren't answered, you can just say, "God didn't want to answer it." You can test science. You can't test religion.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 08:10 AM |
|
|
|
There are still miracles what can't be explained whit science. I found it odd that people can heal from diseases witch even the doctors couldn't help anymore.
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
posted July 10, 2007 08:30 AM |
|
|
placebo effect...
none of the miracle cures was something as vulgar as a limb regrowing or completely impossible for the organism to overcome if pushed to the limits...
show me someone regrowing an arm and then we can talk
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:52 AM |
|
|
Sounds exactly like Doubting Thomas to me! 
Istari: I'm trying to prove that there's no "eternal torment" part in the Bible literally, if those fragments seem to indicate that there's some eternal torment after death for you, it's ok, for me, it's still something different, and don't forget that we have different versions of Bible too. You'd be amazed how much they differ when it comes to single, yet important words. In your Bible it states everlasting, in mine (polish) it can be "wieczny" (eternal). So it's kinda misleading.
|
|
Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:56 AM |
|
|
Lith is usually sarcastic when he is a doubting Thomas 
____________
Dreaming of a Better World
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 10:49 AM |
|
|
Quote:
..The best you'll ever get with science is a 99.9% confidence level using statistics.
Ok...and now we talk about percentages refering to the bible....
Only because many poeple believe in the same things does NOT mean it is true.
Millions of kids read Harry Potter. I bet millions think such a wizard school really exists. Does it exist?
I can repeat it everytime: Is there ANY ANY ANY small evidence for the truth of the stories in the bible? Do you REALLY believe somone can become more than 900 hundred years old?...yes I know...it is only metaphor....
I would love to see a bit more criticism from the believers refering to the bible. This is my main problem. Religious people tend to believe EVERY word...without a single doubt....without trying to think about it from a different point of view.
And this is where the "bad" part normally starts: Giving up the own personality, giving up the own motivations, the own identity. Everything is caused an lead by a book.....or by a so called "religious leader". This is where fanatism starts.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 11:41 AM |
|
|
I don't see where I gave up my identity. Sorry, but this is an exagerration. It's like when theists say that atheists despise them and think highly about themselves.
Also, there are milions of formums where ppl discuss the vague parts of the Bible, since the Bible isn't a clear thing and can be interpreted by (in? aww, I suck at prepositions.. -__-) many ways, so I don't get why do you say we "blindlessly follow some stupid harrypotter-like book".
Finally there are obvious differences between the Bible and Harry Potter, so comparing them isn't really the most accurate thing.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 12:45 PM |
|
Edited by angelito at 13:05, 10 Jul 2007.
|
Quote:
Finally there are obvious differences between the Bible and Harry Potter, so comparing them isn't really the most accurate thing.
Maybe again u didn't get the point of this comparison? It happens if u take a text passage out of contest.
I never compared the content of the books, but the phenomenon of "million people believe something which is stated in a book". Which brings up the conclusion: A theory doesn't become true only because many believe in it.
Scientific Theory: If I throw a stone into the sea, it will sink.
Proof: I threw it, and it sunk. I repeated this thousand times...always same result.  evidence
Scientific Theory: If I throw an addled closed corpus into the sea, it will swim.
Proof: I threw the corpus, and it swam. I repeated this thousand times...always same result. evidence
Scientific Theory: A corpus "becomes lighter" when carried under water.
Proof: I tried to carry a 250 kilo box above water and failed. I tried the same under water and succeeded. This was repeated by thousand other people of same constitution as I have...always same result. evidence
Religious Theory: There is heaven and hell.
Proof: ??
Religous Theory: Jesus was God's son.
Proof: ??
Religious Theory: Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth.
Proof: ??
Religious Theory: Angels do exist.
Proof: ??
Religous Theory: Everybody has a soul.
Proof: ??
I could go on and on…..only looking for a SMALL evidence of any religous theories….
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 02:18 PM |
|
|
That's what faith is about: believing in something that can't be confirmed. Otherwise it would be just accepting another fact, like the one that pigs can't fly. If you feel it's too winded or childish for you, you can totally ignore the faith part and ignore God, like you already do btw. No prob dude :]
ah yeah, your examples aren't the best ones again.. cause, let's say.. try to confirm yourself that
Scientific theory: dark matter exists
Well, where are your tests? go on??
Proof: ??
Some things can't be confirmed like that even in scientific world.
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 02:40 PM |
|
|
Quote:
and don't forget that we have different versions of Bible too. You'd be amazed how much they differ when it comes to single, yet important words. In your Bible it states everlasting, in mine (polish) it can be "wieczny" (eternal). So it's kinda misleading.
Translations can tricky. A lot of people on this forum speak multiple languages which is great. Part of the problem with language translation is that you cannot simply make an even word for word trade. Different language also different ways of conceptualizing the world. So how can we understand a book that was originally written in Hebrew and Greek that has been translated into several other languages? Go back to the Hebrew and Greek. It doesn't matter what translation of the Bible you have, if you are doing a word study you need to do it in the original language. I am not concerned that original word (Aionios) is translated different in polish than it is in english. Depending on the translation style, different english translations will differ from each other. That doesn't change the greek origin though, and that provides us with consistency. It's also nice to note, that eternal and everlasting are pretty synonymous. It's good to think through these issues though.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 03:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I can repeat it everytime: Is there ANY ANY ANY small evidence for the truth of the stories in the bible? Do you REALLY believe somone can become more than 900 hundred years old?...yes I know...it is only metaphor....
I would love to see a bit more criticism from the believers refering to the bible. This is my main problem. Religious people tend to believe EVERY word...without a single doubt....without trying to think about it from a different point of view.
The way you frame the question creates some confusion. It makes me wonder if Khaelo is still around. I read an old post in which she (I am assuming "she", no gender in profile) posted that she is somewhat a student of historic literature. She may help focus your questions. Studying ancient literature is a skill in itself. If I were to answer your question as is, "is there any small evidence for the truth of the stories of the bible?" the answer is yes. In regards to regions, cities, kingdoms, emperors, kings, pharoahs... (basically the easiest information to varify with other historical documents) the Bible is accurate. I have a feeling you are refering to more controversial informaion. But instead of guessing at what you mean, I will let you restate it. For the record I do agree with you that many professing Christians don't think critically about their beliefs. It's easy to believe what you are told to believe (Christian beliefs or any other beliefs) and it takes much more work to think through issues yourself. We can talk more about this after you restate your question.
Quote:
Which brings up the conclusion: A theory doesn't become true only because many believe in it.
Scientific Theory: If I throw a stone into the sea, it will sink.
Proof: I threw it, and it sunk. I repeated this thousand times...always same result. evidence
Scientific Theory: If I throw an addled closed corpus into the sea, it will swim.
Proof: I threw the corpus, and it swam. I repeated this thousand times...always same result. evidence
Scientific Theory: A corpus "becomes lighter" when carried under water.
Proof: I tried to carry a 250 kilo box above water and failed. I tried the same under water and succeeded. This was repeated by thousand other people of same constitution as I have...always same result. evidence
Religious Theory: There is heaven and hell.
Proof: ??
Religous Theory: Jesus was God's son.
Proof: ??
Religious Theory: Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth.
Proof: ??
Religious Theory: Angels do exist.
Proof: ??
Religous Theory: Everybody has a soul.
Proof: ??
I could go on and on…..only looking for a SMALL evidence of any religous theories….
Observable phenomena are nails. Science is a hammer. If you are working with nails, the hammer is really the way to go.
Anything that is not observable is not a nail. Your hammer just isn't going to do the trick.
If you want to say "everything that is not observable does not exist" you are making an assumption (or possible a hypothesis). I haven't seen that hypothesis supported by evidence.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 03:17 PM |
|
Edited by angelito at 17:21, 10 Jul 2007.
|
Quote:
That's what faith is about: believing in something that can't be confirmed. Otherwise it would be just accepting another fact, like the one that pigs can't fly. If you feel it's too winded or childish for you, you can totally ignore the faith part and ignore God, like you already do btw. No prob dude :]
ah yeah, your examples aren't the best ones again.. cause, let's say.. try to confirm yourself that
Scientific theory: dark matter exists
Well, where are your tests? go on??
Proof: ??
Some things can't be confirmed like that even in scientific world.
You really fail to see the point...every time.
I am asking for ONE (1, uno, ein, une,...) single proof of a religous theory. Name one...I could give ya hundreds of prooven scientific theories, while you can not name ONE out of the bible.
And now u bring up ONE scientific theory which is not prooven (yet). Good job.
And this is an interesting statement:
Quote:
That's what faith is about: believing in something that can't be confirmed.
What I always hear/read from theists is: I KNOW god exists, I KNOW the bible is true, I KNOW:...etc...
Everyone has the right for his opinion of course. Everyone can believe anything which is not prooven yet of course. But no one can state "I KNOW.." about things he/she only read from a book. Right?
Knowledge is NOT the same as belief.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
posted July 10, 2007 03:31 PM |
|
Edited by dimis at 15:37, 10 Jul 2007.
|
Quote:
Scientific theory: dark matter exists
Well, where are your tests? go on??
Proof: ??
Some things can't be confirmed like that even in scientific world.
First of all, I am not a great fan of Science (aka Physics) but I find almost ridiculous such provocations. However, you still don't get what angelito is saying: EVIDENCE not proof.
If you want evidence then that dark matter really exists you can find a bunch of them simply by googling: "dark matter evidence".
If you are lazy enough here are some first links returned by google:
(1), (2), (3), (4), (5).
Now, some things in science are not that easy to explain because they need much background; meaning years of hard work in order to be able to understand something crystal-clear. Even scientists sometimes don't realize the importance of their discoveries when these are made for the first time.
Oh, and don't come back asking me about more info for dark matter. I have no clue but I trust science. But my trust is not based on faith! It is that science can convince you about something if you have the courage to take all the preparation you need. Frankly, I don't care whether dark matter really exists or not. Moreover, I am not sure that Physics is indeed science, but that's really another conversation ... lol It's a pity because in the past I was a great fan of Physics. Now, I don't like Physics at the same level.
Anyway, what was your evidence that there exists heaven and hell?
P.S.: Perhaps similar ideas have been posted earlier in thread, but I haven't read more than the page where this post is posted.
____________
The empty set
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 04:04 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Anything that is not observable is not a nail. Your hammer just isn't going to do the trick.
Until something is observed (directly or indirectly), there is no reason to believe in it.
Quote:
If you want to say "everything that is not observable does not exist" you are making an assumption (or possible a hypothesis). I haven't seen that hypothesis supported by evidence.
It's an assumption that cannot be disproved, because the only way to disprove it is to have an observable God, and that wouldn't disprove the assumption; it would further prove it. But nothing outside of the physical world exists; it has never been observed (I'm including energy as part of the physical world). How can you prove something that's not observable?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 04:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Anything that is not observable is not a nail. Your hammer just isn't going to do the trick.
That's a personal theory of yourself I guess.
Quote:
If you want to say "everything that is not observable does not exist" you are making an assumption (or possible a hypothesis). I haven't seen that hypothesis supported by evidence.
Again the same reaction of a theist, and a wrong conclusion. As I stated some pages before already:
I never said: "I KNOW god doesn't exist". My intelligence/knowledge is just not developped well enough to be able to have a 100% prooven opinion about that. With all the facts and experience I have made in my life so far, I can say: "I DOUBT anything like god exists, therefor I don't wanna waste my time with such things".
While theists always say: "I KNOW God exists!". Of course you can tell me every theist has had some kind of "spirituel experience" while he/she was meeting god. Of course I can't proof the opposit, but do YOU really believe it worked like that?
If theists would just say: I BELIEVE there is something like a god (even if it is an extra-terrestrian being who visited the earth thousands of years ago...), all would be fine.
This is the main (and important!) difference.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 04:23 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You really fail to see the point...every time.
Actually I understand you well. too many discussions with atheists not to understand another one. You always ask the same questions. You always say sb does not get your point. So it does not surprise me you say that.
Quote:
I am asking for ONE (1, uno, ein, une,...) single proof of a religous theory. Name one...I could give ya hundreds of prooven scientific theories, while you can not name ONE out of the bible.
I said it before : it's a matter of faith. And you say I don't get the point?  Than read my last post again.. There is no "proof" because it's not a scientific issue. There is no proof because.. just because. Yes, there ain't none that would sound convincing enough. Does that satisfy you? Oh, ok, we're just a bunch of loonatics believeing in flying ressurecting beard-man. Ok, have it your way if that's what you wish to hear.
Quote:
And now u bring up ONE scientific theory which is not prooven (yet). Good job.
Just a simple example. You can try to prove that leptons exist, if you find dark matter too hard.
Quote:
TWhat I always hear/read from theists is: I KNOW god exists, I KNOW the bible is true, i KNOW:...etc...
If you say you don't know, you deny your own faith. Sorry, no matter how bizzare this may sound, we theists have to say it that way. As long as our faith is strong, we will. I hope you understand that
Quote:
Everyone has the right for his opinion of course. Everyone can believe anything which is not prooven yet of course. But no one can state "I KNOW.." about things he/she only read from a book. Right?
That's why it's always certain to say "I believe that..".
Quote:
Knowledge is NOT the same as believe.
Nobody denies it, I guess.
|
|
Shadey
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 04:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
..The best you'll ever get with science is a 99.9% confidence level using statistics.
Ok...and now we talk about percentages refering to the bible....
Only because many poeple believe in the same things does NOT mean it is true.
Millions of kids read Harry Potter. I bet millions think such a wizard school really exists. Does it exist?
I can repeat it everytime: Is there ANY ANY ANY small evidence for the truth of the stories in the bible? Do you REALLY believe somone can become more than 900 hundred years old?...yes I know...it is only metaphor....
I would love to see a bit more criticism from the believers refering to the bible. This is my main problem. Religious people tend to believe EVERY word...without a single doubt....without trying to think about it from a different point of view.
And this is where the "bad" part normally starts: Giving up the own personality, giving up the own motivations, the own identity. Everything is caused an lead by a book.....or by a so called "religious leader". This is where fanatism starts.
Give me one good reason why someone wouldn't be able to live 900 years? If you lived in a world with a 3 foot thick protective water barrier preventing all harmful radiation from entering, then what would exist to cause the body harm? The world back when people lived 900 years is different then it is now. We also have evidence for the barriers existance. Radiation can't go past 3 feet of water. It is also recorded as having existed.
You're also generalizing and sterotyping people, which in the past has caused genocide. Christians tend to question and doubt as much as you do when it comes to the Bibles teachings.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
