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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 18, 2008 03:18 AM |
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I mean, it cant exist on its own... but then again, I'm prolly too drunk to think straight...
Make way for the messenger!!!!
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2008 01:07 PM |
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Quote:
No, you don't understand. I can't imagine infinity. I undestand the idea of infinity. I can't imagine an all-powerful eternal God. But I understand the idea of such a being. The difference lies in the concepts. The concept of God is the concept of a being of whose existence there is no evidence. The concept of infinity is defined as a limitless amount of something (time, in this case). The difference is that God is supposed to exist regardless of the concept, and infinity is defined as its concept. According to theists, without humans, there would still be a god. The concept of infinity, however, requires that humans define it in order for it to exist.
And is there any actual evidence of the infinity of time? I would more likely say that infinity denies the concept of time and existence as we know it. In infinity time plays no role, as it is infinite. If time was really infinite, just such a revelation would twist our concept of existence as such.
But is there any more proof of infinity of time as there is of god? Can infinity be just a concept that humans made up?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 18, 2008 02:27 PM |
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Quote:
And is there any actual evidence of the infinity of time? I would more likely say that infinity denies the concept of time and existence as we know it. In infinity time plays no role, as it is infinite. If time was really infinite, just such a revelation would twist our concept of existence as such.
But is there any more proof of infinity of time as there is of god? Can infinity be just a concept that humans made up?
Humans defined the infinity of time. Humans said, "This is what infinity is." Trying to prove infinity is like trying to prove the number 3.7. 3.7 is defined by humans as a number that is greater than 3 by 0.7. Can you prove that? No, because it is a concept. Just like infinity.
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Eccentric Opinion
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2008 04:02 PM |
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Infinity exists in a mathematical world, in theoretical concepts, but the idea of infinity is foreign to the human mind, to our view of life. If you accept infinity, you can also accept many other irrational views on existence, that may or may not be true, as we will never prove them and therefore can not fully declare, that this is how it is. All you can do is believe in whatever your view is.
The theistic view of one or more, entity all-knowing, all powerful "God(s)" is a concept created and defined by humans. Each culture and religion defines it's own and specific view of the issue. This concept, is again, based primarily based on belief.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 18, 2008 06:17 PM |
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Religion are fairy-tales.
True story.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted January 18, 2008 07:03 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 19:17, 18 Jan 2008.
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lol xerox
Do you believe there is a creator of some sort?
Also, There has to be infinity in reality aswell. Its a long complicated explanation why but think about it. Nothing exists then suddenly something does-reality?
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2008 07:57 PM |
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The idea creation of something from nothing is incomprohendeble as the concept of infinity. Neither of those will the human mind ever grasp logicaly, only on the ground of beliefs.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 18, 2008 09:47 PM |
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how does many planets apear in a perfect circular shape with very intellagent species
Firstly, their orbits are elliptical, not circular. Secondly, it's because of gravity. Thirdly, how many planets other than Earth do you know to have intelligent life?
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its like air you know its there but you carnt see it and it dosnt help you against dangerous gases in any way
You can feel air, though. And why would air help you against dangerous gases?
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why dont these gases make new planets
Some of them aren't dense enough. And some of them are forming new planets. But it takes hundreds of millions of years, if not more.
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the idea of infinity is foreign to the human mind
The idea of infinity wouldn't exist without the human mind. And why is the human mind so necessary? We defined infinity, but infinity (what we defined as infinity) can exist without us.
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If you accept infinity
Do you accept that 2>1? Do you accept that 3>2? How about 99999999999999999>3? Well, infinity is defined as something bigger than any number. It is that way by definition.
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The theistic view of one or more, entity all-knowing, all powerful "God(s)" is a concept created and defined by humans.
You think that. And I agree with you here. But many theists would disagree.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 19, 2008 12:38 AM |
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Quote:
The idea creation of something from nothing is incomprohendeble as the concept of infinity. Neither of those will the human mind ever grasp logicaly, only on the ground of beliefs.
I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point out of this, but that does NOT give proof to the idea that a God exists.
Again, the chance of the biblical God existing is equal to the chance of the Flying spaghetti monster existing. Which, might I add, has bigger balls than any other god.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 19, 2008 12:48 AM |
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Quote:
how many planets other than Earth do you know to have intelligent life?
Well you'll agree that, since you accept universe as infinite, there's an infinite (read: certain) chance that there are planets with intelligent life on them (and even an infinite number of them  ).
Since you're dwelling into that, you must realize that there are infinite infinities in infinity 
If, of the infinite number of planets in the universe, only Earth has a form of life on it, well, that would be a rather strong argument that God exists Of course, if several planets are proven to have intelligent life on them, that DOESN'T mean that God doesn't exist. So, at least on that field, the theists score a point
Though we can't know for sure how many other planets are populated with life.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2008 03:20 AM |
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Quote:
Well you'll agree that, since you accept universe as infinite, there's an infinite (read: certain) chance that there are planets with intelligent life on them (and even an infinite number of them ).
No. While there is an infinite amount of space in the universe, there is a finite amount of matter. So there isn't an infinite amount of planets.
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Eccentric Opinion
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2008 11:19 AM |
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Edited by SirDunco at 11:20, 19 Jan 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
the idea of infinity is foreign to the human mind
The idea of infinity wouldn't exist without the human mind. And why is the human mind so necessary? We defined infinity, but infinity (what we defined as infinity) can exist without us.
You just put up two statements against each other. One that the idea of infinity would not exist without the human mind, but it would exist without us. Infinity is just a word. The concept that it describes is quite different, if not absolutely foreign, from what we understand as existence. The thought of infinity of time or matter is just another demonstration of the fear of mortality. It is just another escape from the fear of the unknown, when you say that something has been here forever, you are done and need not think further. If it is God or matter, or whatever, that has been here forever without a beginning or an end it is still just an escape, an easier answer for those who can't or don't want to think about many other questions.
What I'm saying is that declaring that something is infinite is practically a religious statement, if not relegious then based mostly on believes, because you cannot possibly defend such a statement with facts. The questions of ontology or metaphysics are one's that we will never be able to answer for sure, but there are many different opinions, all of which may or may not be right, each is subjective and different.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 19, 2008 12:26 PM |
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No. While there is an infinite amount of space in the universe, there is a finite amount of matter.
Um...
How exactly do you know that?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 19, 2008 01:09 PM |
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The question still comes as to where the matter and energy came from in the first place. From what little I know neither matter nor energy can be created from nothing.
There is the repeating cycle theory. That the universe expands and collapses endlessly. Still doesn't explain how the matter/energy got there in the first place.
In fact nothing explains how matter and energy came into exsistance originally for there to be a 'big bang'. Some argue that it was there in the beginning, makes up everything, and will be there in the end. That seems familiar from somewhere, however. Oh yeah, the bible. Something that was the first and will be the last...hmm wonder what that could be?
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Message received.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2008 02:08 PM |
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Good points Mythical. But then another question pops up? Where did the first thing come from? What is it's origin and how can it be first? And most importantly why?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2008 02:53 PM |
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You just put up two statements against each other. One that the idea of infinity would not exist without the human mind, but it would exist without us.
Infinity as we define it would exist, but we wouldn't be around to define it.
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If it is God or matter, or whatever, that has been here forever without a beginning or an end it is still just an escape, an easier answer for those who can't or don't want to think about many other questions.
What you fail to realize is that the universe had to have existed forever. Law of conservation of matter.
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Um...
How exactly do you know that?
If it was, the universe would immediately collapse upon itself.
Quote:
The question still comes as to where the matter and energy came from in the first place. From what little I know neither matter nor energy can be created from nothing.
There is the repeating cycle theory. That the universe expands and collapses endlessly. Still doesn't explain how the matter/energy got there in the first place.
There is an answer. There is no first place. If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then it would be logical to say that matter and energy never were created nor destroyed. To ask where it came from is to assume that it spontaneously appeared out of nowhere, which would violate the laws of physics.
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 19, 2008 04:04 PM |
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Quote:
If it was, the universe would immediately collapse upon itself.
Why?
If it's infinite, why would it collapse upon itself if it has an infinite amount of matter in it?
I've noticed most atheists defend their points by saying "if it wasn't that way, everything would collapse upon itself" 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2008 04:11 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If it was, the universe would immediately collapse upon itself.
Why?
If it's infinite, why would it collapse upon itself if it has an infinite amount of matter in it?
Ever heard of the law of the universal gravitation? F=G*M1*M2/r^2 ? If M1 and/or M2 are infinite, then F is infinite. If F is infinite, then the universe would collapse upon itself.
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 19, 2008 05:13 PM |
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You haven't taken into account what happens if the distance (r) is infinite too And it is infinite, if the universe is infinite. 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2008 09:28 PM |
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Quote:
You haven't taken into account what happens if the distance (r) is infinite too And it is infinite, if the universe is infinite.
But r isn't infinite. The objects aren't an infiniite distance away from each other.
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Eccentric Opinion
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