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| Thread: Which skills to choose for a necro? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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buffysboy
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 06, 2006 01:32 PM |
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Which skills to choose for a necro?
I like playing necro and right now im confused about which skills are better than the rest, my main unit is going to be skellies, with vamps, dragons and liches as main support; ghosts, wraith, zombies as tanks. The hero is probably going to be mostly magic based since I'd love to cast puppet master, frenzy, raise undead and the mass curses, I think they are most powerful.
My strategy in the final battle is first to cast mindcontrol or frenzy of enemy's main unit, then throw as many curses at them to make them ineffective and then outlast them by keep raising undead. With spirit link you probably wont run out of mana ever.
I don't expect my main hero to be above lvl 25 because a normal game doesnt last that long.
So these are probably the must have skills:
Skill: Lvl:
Ultimate necromancy 3
Skeleton archer 4
Eternal Servitude 5
Expert Dark Magic 8
Master of Curse 9
Master of Mind 10
Spirit Link 11
Expert Summoning Magic 14
Master of Life 15
Note: If you choose vladermia you can get there by lvl 13. Banshee Howl might not be needed because you can cast mass curses with dark magic specialty by only spending half of your initiative and some of them are more powerful.
Question: And here is my delima, which skills should i choose now?
I'm thinking of 4 main skills here of which I can maximum choose 3 and realistically only 2 to perfect since I only have (25-15=) 10 skills points to spare.
Logistics, Defense, Attack, Sorcery.
Since Im using skellies as my main unit, it would probably be wise to choose Defense and Attack, since vitality and battle frenzy are probably a must have:
Skill: Lvl:
Basic Defense 16
Vitality 17
Protection 18
Evasion 19
Basic Attack 20
Archery 21
Battle Frenzy 22
(Tactics) 23 (Note: so i can block liches)
Question: Is chilling bones, cold steel a waste of skill points?
I heard they are severely nerfed and the points could be spent more effectively elsewhere.
Question: Is this hero the best way to go for BIG, 5-6 hours long map?
I like sorcery because with that you can cast spells like no tomorrow, together with mastery of dark magic you are probably unstoppable, like only spending 20% of your initiative cast a mass curse spell. And you get boneward, too.
Logisics makes you travel really fast so you can catch enemy heroes and destroy them, you get death march, too.
Personally I think luck is not that good for undead because there are other skills that are a lot better, as mentioned above.
So what do you guys think?
Dark Magic, Summon Magic, Attack, Defense and some Sorcery? or
Dark, summon, attack, defense and some logistic?
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 06, 2006 02:24 PM |
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What you have seems good. I'd get rid of Defense though. It's a rather pointless ability to me, since it looks like you'll have plenty of ranged units (Skelly Archers and Liches) and units that don't allow retaliation (Vampires).
When I play Necro, I usually take the following:
-Dark Magic (for Mass Slow, Confusion, Decay...etc.)
-Summon Magic (for Raise Death, since it's only a level 2 spell!)
-Logistics (so that my hero can walk and actually do stuff)
-Sorcery (I like Magic Insight and Boneward  )
-Attack (for Archery, mainly)
So it's pretty close to what you have, except for Defense.
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neoexdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 06, 2006 02:45 PM |
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Defense=>Vitality gives skeleton archers 7hp, hence much more staying power
I am a big fan of Enlightenment skill. It gives more exp, resulting in higher level and also increases all stats, which translates to more damage to opponents, less damage to your own units, stronger spells (like Animate Dead) and more mana for casting them.
My choices are:
Enlightenment,
Attack=>Battle Frenzy,
Defense=>Vitality,
Luck=>Soldier's Luck
for a might oriented necro
Enlightenment,
Sorcery,
Dark Magic=>Master of Mind, Master of Curses,
Summoning Magic=>Master of Life, Haunted Mines (for extra ghosts)
for a magic oriented necro
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Buffysboy
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 06, 2006 05:43 PM |
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Quote:
-Dark Magic (for Mass Slow, Confusion, Decay...etc.)
-Summon Magic (for Raise Death, since it's only a level 2 spell!)
-Logistics (so that my hero can walk and actually do stuff)
-Sorcery (I like Magic Insight and Boneward )
-Attack (for Archery, mainly)
I think your choice is better than mine. Logistics = a lot more skellies and faster artifacts, mines gathering than your opponent. Sorcery = a lot faster cast frequencies and boneward. both of them seem to be better than defence.
Quote:
Defense=>Vitality gives skeleton archers 7hp, hence much more staying power
I am a big fan of Enlightenment skill. It gives more exp, resulting in higher level and also increases all stats, which translates to more damage to opponents, less damage to your own units, stronger spells (like Animate Dead) and more mana for casting them.
My choices are:
Enlightenment,
Attack=>Battle Frenzy,
Defense=>Vitality,
Luck=>Soldier's Luck
for a might oriented necro
Enlightenment,
Sorcery,
Dark Magic=>Master of Mind, Master of Curses,
Summoning Magic=>Master of Life, Haunted Mines (for extra ghosts)
for a magic oriented necro
Personly I think it's a mistake to go all magic or all might, because you can be easily out maneuvered as a 100% might hero or total overpowered as a 100% magic hero. Vitality seems to be less and less important - yes staying power is nice for skellies, but you also raise less skellies with the raise undead spell. Imagine without vitality you can raise 400 skellies, with vitality you can only raise 300, while 400 does 33% more damage than 300. So I think it's better to replace defense with sorcery or logistics.
No offense, but I think enlightenment is totally crap. Yes, you might get 2-3 lvls higher but the difference to your opponent is less and less the longer you play because lvling become so much harder. And would you really replace the above mentioned skills with enlightenment, which does you no good but to give some stats?
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So this is what I come up with so far:
Expert Dark Magic
Master of Curses
Master of Mind
Spirit Link 6
Expert Summoning Magic
Master of Life 10
Basic Attack
Battle Frenzy
Archery 13
Expert Logistics 16
Expert Sorcery
Magic Insight
Bone Ward 21
Ultimate Necromancy 24
Skeleton Archers 25
Eternal Servitude 26
If you choose a hero starting with Summoning or Dark magic you can achieve those in 24 lvls. I left out Haunted Mines, pathfinding and death march because you doubt lvl 27 is achievable and the above skills are more important.
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neoexdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 07, 2006 09:46 AM |
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Quote:
Imagine without vitality you can raise 400 skellies, with vitality you can only raise 300, while 400 does 33% more damage than 300
Here, you assume that a stack of skeletons will be killed before they can act AND you can't resurrect them all in one go. Look at my example:
We both have stacks of 400 skeletons and raise dead spell that recovers 700 hp, but I have vitality and you don't.
Our skeletons are hit for 350 damage- killing 350/7=50 mine and 350/5=70 yours. I have 400-50=350 skellies left and you have 400-70=330 skellies left. My stack deals more damage, simply because it's more numerous.
In the next turn skellies are hit for another 350 damage and we use raise dead spell to bring their numbers back to 400.
In both cases our initial and final numbers of skeletons are the same BUT mine did more damage in the process.
Note that I didn't even consider the defense bonus my skellies get, so the actual damage that my skellies would receive in the above example would be less than 350.
I'm not claiming that defense=>vitality is a must have, merely that it is useful 
Quote:
No offense, but I think enlightenment is totally crap. Yes, you might get 2-3 lvls higher
If you have 3 levels more than your opponent then it is a real advantage. You can have the same skills as your opponent+enlightenment and better stats.
Quote:
but the difference to your opponent is less and less the longer you play because lvling become so much harder. And would you really replace the above mentioned skills with enlightenment, which does you no good but to give some stats?
Yes, I would, because extra stats make you powerful Example: we both agree that Attack skill is useful. What it does is giving all your troops 15% more damage. This is the same effect as +3 attack (assuming that these percentages are additive; if they are multiplicative then this still approximately holds for necro who have generally low attack). Assuming that each stat point is worth the same, you get +3 stat points on level 6 with expert enlightenment.
Archery gives 20% damage bonus=+4 stat points=level 8 with enlightenment.
Furthermore, enlightenment gets more and more useful as you level up, as opposed to skills like aforementioned attack which always gives 15% extra damage.
No offense, but I still think enlightenment rocks 
Quote:
Personly I think it's a mistake to go all magic or all might, because you can be easily out maneuvered as a 100% might hero or total overpowered as a 100% magic hero
I've just posted what works for me. I'm not into multiplayer, but in sp these builds work just fine
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 07, 2006 01:55 PM |
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Just to make sure: with Enlightenment, you get _one_ skill point for every other level you have. But this skill point could be anything =) Or at least, it is distributed according to the same rule as the "normal" skill points distribution.
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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neoexdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 07, 2006 02:40 PM |
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Yes, that's why I assumed that each stat point has the same worth.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 07, 2006 02:54 PM |
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Quote:
Just to make sure: with Enlightenment, you get _one_ skill point for every other level you have. But this skill point could be anything =) Or at least, it is distributed according to the same rule as the "normal" skill points distribution.
Does this apply to any level of Enlightenment? I was under the impression that the extra stat bonus is only when you have Expert Enlightenment.
Anyway, it's definitely not a bad skill (I really like Intelligence and Scholar), but it's not something I would choose if given the choice.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 07, 2006 03:09 PM |
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@neoexdeath
sorry, i don't understand
@Iris
Yeah, i'm talking about Expert.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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neoexdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 07, 2006 04:12 PM |
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Quote:
Does this apply to any level of Enlightenment? I was under the impression that the extra stat bonus is only when you have Expert Enlightenment.
Basic Enlightenment: +1 stat every 4 levels
Advanced: +1 every 3 levels
Expert: +1 every 2 levels
That's including levels you've already got when acquiring enlightenment.
In my previous post I assumed that +1Attack has the same value as +1 Defense, +1 Power and +1 Knowledge.
Attack skill is an equivalent of +3 Attack, or in other words +3 stat points (since I assumed that each stat point is worth the same).
With Expert Enlightenment you get +3 stat at level 6, so for any level higher than 6 Enlightenment gives a greater bonus than Attack.
I hope it's more clear now
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 07, 2006 04:20 PM |
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well, ok, i see what you mean, but i disagree then =P
With Attack, you focus on what you want: Offense. Plus, you get the nice set of subskills (Battle Frenzy and Archery).
With Enlightenment, assuming you get an equivalent repartition of skill points, you'll need to be level 24 to equal that (even though you WILL have better stats in other domains as well).
The point being: i don't think that Enlightenment is useless, but it might be a bit too "general". In most games, it is better to specialize than to play balanced. I cannot tell for H5 yet, but i would assume it's the same.
In any case, interesting discussion about a possibly underrated skill =)
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted June 07, 2006 04:33 PM |
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The build looks good on paper at least, I haven't had time to play with necromancers so far. I did find the time to play one map at least besides the demo maps.
Anyway, there's one slight error with it that I can see. You need advanced attack to choose both Battle Frenzy and Archery. It's like that in every skill, can choose 1 subskill if you are at basic, 2 at advanced and 3 at expert. From what I've seen so far you shouldn't have to worry about that, you will have chosen both advanced and expert attack before then to avoid having to choose anything you really don't want from the summoning or logistics tree and probably banshee howl.
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neoexdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 07, 2006 05:24 PM |
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Quote:
Personly I think it's a mistake to go all magic or all might, because you can be easily out maneuvered as a 100% might hero or total overpowered as a 100% magic hero
Quote:
it is better to specialize than to play balanced
Looks like these quotes contradict each other and I don't feel experienced enough to be the judge
Anyway, I didn't suggest to put Enlightenment over Attack, just showing that Enlightenment is (at least) as useful as Attack. If you want to specialise, you can have both for a bigger punch 
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 07, 2006 05:31 PM |
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You know those quotes were said by different people, right? They don't really contradict each other fully, because specialized hardly means 100% focus.
Either way, it's all comes down to personal preference. I usually like focusing on Magic, because in the beginning, it will compensate for your lack of creatures, and later on, you can switch from attacking magic to support magic.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 07, 2006 09:56 PM |
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Quote:
just showing that Enlightenment is (at least) as useful as Attack.
well, while you can certainly _think_ that, i don't agree you _showed_ that as a fact =P
Enlightenment is useful for something, Attack is useful for another. Until we know exactly how the Stat boost from Enlightenment works, it's gonna be hard to predict the benefits you get from it, and more importantly, how to use them. For example, if you get mainly Defense points while you're aiming at an offensive strategy (shooters, fast attackers), it's a waste. Same if you get Attack/Defense points while you're mainly a Caster 
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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igniteice
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 08, 2006 12:34 AM |
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Starting with Lucretia, I recommend:
Sorcery
- Mana Regeneration (start with as Lucretia)
- Magic Insight
- Arcane Training / Boneward
Boneward is nice but magic insight is pretty useless and you need it to get Boneward. Because you start with Mana Regeneration as Lucretia, you have to either pick Magic Insight + Arcane Training (20% less mana cost for spells) or Magic Insight + Boneward (nice vs Inferno esp.)
If you start with Vladimir (the only other hero I recommend using) you can negate Mana Regeneration and do Arcane Training + Magic Insight->Boneward.
Everything else is the same for both heroes:
Defense
- Evasion
- Protection
- Vitality
Chilling Bones did not impress me at all so I gave up that for Evasion.
Attack
- Archery
- Battle Frenzy -> Cold Steel
Dark Magic
- Master of Mind
- Master of Curses
- Master of Pain
Don't need Spirit Link, you'll probably never use all the mana you have and if you're playing vs inferno with a lot of imps and such, you should be able to take out that entire stack in one turn with skeleton archers.
Last is Summoning Magic, which you'll start with as Vladimir
- Master of Conjuration
- Master of Life
- Master of Earthblood / Haunted Mines
Both Earthblood and Haunted Mines I consider useless skills, so one or the other, it does not matter. Ghosts are great until they all die in one shot that makes it through the 50% dodge and I'm not going to waste raise dead on ghosts.
Hope that helps.
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Necromancer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 08, 2006 01:14 AM |
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Quote:
Starting with Lucretia, I recommend:
Sorcery
- Mana Regeneration (start with as Lucretia)
- Magic Insight
- Arcane Training / Boneward
Boneward is nice but magic insight is pretty useless and you need it to get Boneward. Because you start with Mana Regeneration as Lucretia, you have to either pick Magic Insight + Arcane Training (20% less mana cost for spells) or Magic Insight + Boneward (nice vs Inferno esp.)
If you start with Vladimir (the only other hero I recommend using) you can negate Mana Regeneration and do Arcane Training + Magic Insight->Boneward.
Everything else is the same for both heroes:
Defense
- Evasion
- Protection
- Vitality
Chilling Bones did not impress me at all so I gave up that for Evasion.
Attack
- Archery
- Battle Frenzy -> Cold Steel
Dark Magic
- Master of Mind
- Master of Curses
- Master of Pain
Don't need Spirit Link, you'll probably never use all the mana you have and if you're playing vs inferno with a lot of imps and such, you should be able to take out that entire stack in one turn with skeleton archers.
Last is Summoning Magic, which you'll start with as Vladimir
- Master of Conjuration
- Master of Life
- Master of Earthblood / Haunted Mines
Both Earthblood and Haunted Mines I consider useless skills, so one or the other, it does not matter. Ghosts are great until they all die in one shot that makes it through the 50% dodge and I'm not going to waste raise dead on ghosts.
Hope that helps.
I'd have to disagree with you on the point of defense..it certainly is a useful skill...but I would choose logistics or luck over it..
My necro hero looks like this
Necromancy
Attack
Dark Magic
Summoning Magic
Sorcery
Logistics*
I am still having a debate with myself..the first 5 skills are untouchable and a must for every true Necromancer...but the last one is open for either logistics, luck or defense maybe...depends on a map..if you find a couple of luck artifacts then luck skill is not that important..on the other hand if you happen to find boots of speed or smtn like that then logistics is not that important....
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Necromancer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 08, 2006 01:23 AM |
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Quote:
Defense
- Evasion
- Protection
- Vitality
Chilling Bones did not impress me at all so I gave up that for Evasion.
Don't need Spirit Link, you'll probably never use all the mana you have and if you're playing vs inferno with a lot of imps and such, you should be able to take out that entire stack in one turn with skeleton archers.
I find the evasion skill unneccessary cause of the mass confusion..that is probably one of the best spells in the game..on expert dark magic your enemies don't shoot and don't retaliate..I love to start a fight with mass slow followed by mass confusion..after that it's duck shots for your skellies..
Don't underestimate the power of spirit link..it can be a life saver against inferno...Did you ever encounter an enemy hero with over 400 imps?? just the mention that their iniative is higher than any of the necro units..bye bye mana..
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Don't mess with the Necromancers, they are deadly serious
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igniteice
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 08, 2006 03:14 AM |
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I'm all about long drawn out games. Here's a nice screenshot showing Lucretia power.
Vitality skill in action:
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Necromancer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 08, 2006 03:26 AM |
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Quote:
I'm all about long drawn out games. Here's a nice screenshot showing Lucretia power.
http://www.imageweb.info/2/VH983543.jpg
Vitality skill in action:
http://www.imageweb.info/2/9bV83585.jpg
(You'll have to copy/paste to view images, because apparently this particular image host sucks.)
I couldn't get to your images...could you upload them somewhere else?
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