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| Thread: New Creatures ( and Alt creature production system) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2006 03:51 AM |
bonus applied. |
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New Creatures ( and Alt creature production system)
Additonal New Creatures
Ialways exciting to see new creatures, and surely would be a great attraction for the future expansion packs.
There are several way of adding new creatures, which some I will list below:
1) As new factions. Its pretty oblivious, and pretty sure we will see Dwarf or Orc town someday. Since there are several post about this already, won¡¦t go much detail on it.
2) As a Neutral Creature. Adding new creatures as only exclusive neutral would be a easy thing to do.
3) Into the existing Faction. Its what this post is mostly about. This would mean adding several creatures into the existing creature line up for each army. Two way it could be done:
a. As additional level: Instead of just 7 tier, would become 8 or even 9.
b. The Splitting Growth Tree System: Its one thing that I personally hope to see. This would mean that the new creatures/growth buildings would co-exiting with the exisiting one, but you can only pick one or other. Using an example, say for Haven, in its Lv2 creature, you can either build a Archer tower to grow Archers, or a Pikeman Barrack to grow Pikeman. But in building one, you are bar from building the other (at least in that town). I think this allow a better customization of your army, adding more variation to each¡¦s prefer playing style.
So anyhow, here are some creatures I would hope to see for adding into the exisiting faction¡¦ basing on the Splitting Growth tree system described above.
(ability with a * mean its for the upgrade)
Haven
Pikeman / Halberdier
Haven Lv 2 (Archer Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 2 / 3
Defense: 4 / 5
Damage: 1-3 / 2-4
HP: 12 / 16
Speed: 4 / 4
Imitative: 8 / 8
Ability:
-PoleArm: Attack will deal damage to front 2 square. (somewhat similar to Breath, but will do double attack to large creatures, since they occupy two squares.)
-Defensive Stance*: If set to Defense, will counter attack first when attacked.
Comment:
They are the more melee-defensive type, who¡¦s strength will shine when use to attack a large creature.
Swordsman / Crusader
Haven Lv 4 (Griffin Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 8 / 10
Defense: 6 / 10
Damage: 6-10 / 8-12
HP: 35 / 40
Speed: 4 / 5
Imitative: 8 / 8
Ability:
-Unlimited Retaliation:
-Shield Bash:
-Greater Swing*: Attack front 3 tiles (like 3-head attack)
Comment:
Very good all-around melee fighter. While not as forwarding as a Griffin, generally good to use to back line defense-offense.
Griffin Rider / Griffin Knight
Haven Lv 6 (Cavalier Alternative)
Large creature/ Flyer
Attack: 21 / 23
Defense: 18 / 20
Damage: 16-24 / 20-30
HP: 80 / 90
Speed: 7 / 8
Imitative: 10 / 11
Ability:
-Bravery*
Comment:
Flying version of Cavalier. While less in defense and attack, they do have the advantage of being a quick flyer.
Necropolis
Ghoul / Maghoul
Necropolis Lv 2 (Zombie Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 2 / 3
Defense: 1 / 2
Damage: 1-5 / 1-6
HP: 10 / 12
Speed: 6 / 6
Imitative: 6 / 7
Ability:
-Frightful Aura:
-Exploding Corpus*: Deal damage to all creature around itself, including itself.
Comment:
A rusher type. Decent in damage, but poor in armor, as well as not too good of speed and imitative. But if can get it across the field, can be a menace in large number. Also can go for the Kamikaze attack with its ability.
Acolyte / Fanatic
Necropolis Lv 4 (Vampire Alternative)
Small creature/Walker/Living
Attack: 6 / 8
Defense: 8 / 8
Damage: 6-6 / 6-8
HP: 24 / 38
Speed: 3 / 4
Imitative: 11 / 11
Ability:
-Shooter: 4 /6 shots
-Caster: 12 / 18 Mana
-Raise Dead:
-Weakness:
-Decay*:
Comment:
A poor shooter and almost everything else, its biggest advantage is its Raise Dead spell, which allow it to play as a healer type of role in the army. Also the only living creature in the undead army.
Doom Guard / Dark Knight
Necropolis Lv 6 (Wight Alternative)
Small creature/Walker / Large Creature/Rider*
Attack: 20 / 23
Defense: 22 / 20
Damage: 15-25 / 20-30
HP: 90 / 90
Speed: 6 / 7
Imitative: 9 / 10
Ability:
-Cursing Attack
-Deadly Strike*
Comment:
Power Forward. Less of a tanker than Wight, but pack more punch and cover more distance.
Sylvan
White Tiger / Night Stalker
Sylvan Lv 3 (Hunter Alternative)
Large creature/Walker
Attack: 5 / 6
Defense: 2 / 3
Damage: 4-7 / 5-8
HP: 18 / 24
Speed: 7 / 7
Imitative: 8 / 10
Ability:
-Double Attack
-Shadow Walk*: Move while hidden (can not be targeted) for portion of that turn. (duration hidden will be depend on how far you move. So if move only 1 sq, will be hidden for 80% of time till next turn, but if move 7 sq, will only be in hiding for 20% of time, so on)
Comment:
Front runner with nice offensive ability. While have weak armor, Shadow Walk ability will allow it to live longer and be more efficient in closing distance.
Eagle / Windlord
Sylvan Lv 4 (Druid Alternative)
Large creature/Flyer
Attack: 8 / 10
Defense: 6 / 8
Damage: 7-12 / 7-16
HP: 30 / 40
Speed: 7 / 7
Imitative: 12 / 14
Ability:
-Strike and Return
-Battle Dive*
Comment:
An earlier flyer for the elf, with a role similar to Haven¡¦s Griffin.
(can also possibly re-label this as Pegasus, but Eagle just feel more forest creature like )
Sharpshooter / Sniper
Sylvan Lv 6 (Treant Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 20 / 24
Defense: 16 / 18
Damage: 20-24 / 28-32
HP: 80 / 90
Speed: 4 / 5
Imitative: 10 / 12
Ability:
-Shooter: 8/12
-Aim: Active ability. You will loose half a turn (50% imitative), but will deal 50% more damage on the next attack.
-Striker Arrow*: Its attack hit all creatures in the line of attack, including friendly ones
-Hidden*: Active ability. Become hidden till your next turn. While hidden, you can not be targeted. Will be force out of hidden prematurely if got receive any kind of damage or boosting spells. (can not be use continuously)
Comment:
Short of Titan, the best Shooter around, however, their weak defense is their fatal drawback.
Academy
Lynx / Onyx Lynx
Academy Lv 3 (Golem Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 3 / 3
Defense: 5 / 6
Damage: 3-6 / 3-8
HP: 14 / 22
Speed: 7 / 7
Imitative: 12 / 12
Ability:
-Elemental:
-Dash:
-Wreaking Strike*:
Comment:
An all around creature with nice defense and movement, and fast imitative, making this unit a great striker into enemy¡Çs back row, good for causing havoc to their archers. An alterative to the golem, for those who want more offensive rushing power.
Obelisk / Power Obelisk
Academy Lv 5 (Djinn Alternative)
Large Creature / Immobile
Attack: 10 / 13
Defense: 15 / 20
Damage: 10-14 / 12-16
HP: 90 / 110
Speed: 0 / 0
Imitative: 8 / 8
Ability:
Shooter: 3 / 5
-Energy Barrier: Active Ability. Once enact, all friendly units location titles adjacent to the obelisk will increase their magic resistance by 50%. (effect last till next turn)
-Physical Barrier*: Active Ability. Once enact, all friendly units location titles adjacent to the obelisk will increase their physical defense by 30%. (effect last till next turn)
-Power Outburst*: Active Ability. Damage all units 1 square adjacent to it, including self.
Comment:
Its not a great shooter, as its damage and shoots are limited, also it is immobile. But its biggest advantage is its good defense, and its ability to shield other allies, making them a good support for other shooter.
Sphinx / Golden Sphinx
Academy Lv 6 (Rakshasa Rani Alternative)
Large creature/Flyer
Attack: 18 / 20
Defense: 20 / 22
Damage: 18-22 / 16-26
HP: 100 / 120
Speed: 4 / 5
Imitative: 7 / 8
Ability:
Caster: 10 / 14 Mana
-Stone Spike
-Endurance
-3 Question Riddle: Active ability, within its attack/move range. Target creature will have 33% of guessing ¡Èright¡É to the riddle, which Sphinx will deal no damage. If guessed wrong (66% chance), Sphinx will deal 50% more damage.
-4 Question Riddle*: Similar to the 3 question, but will only have 25% chance of guessing it right.
Comment: An all around creature, that not only fly, have decent offensive and defensive power, as well as a caster. It can deal great damage, if get lucky. Its slowness would be its biggest drawback.
Dungeon
Troglodyte / Cave Troglodyte
Dungeon Lv 1 (Scout Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 2 / 3
Defense: 2 / 3
Damage: 1-3 / 2-3
HP: 4 / 6
Speed: 4 / 5
Initiative: 10 / 10
Ability:
-Immune to Blind:
-Scatter*: At random chance, when attack in melee, will run away (similar to frightful presence), loosing all the initiative build up at this point, but avoid the hit.
Comment: Unlike the ranged Scout/Assassin, they are they shock troopers. (will have an additional building that would increase its growth rate to 14) Use to soak up the damage. Become more effective at later level, especially with larger number, and good luck, which will enable it to run away more, thus up its survivability.
Evil Eye / Beholder
Academy Lv 6 (Shadow Witch Alternative)
Small Creature/Walker
Attack: 20 / 22
Defense: 16 / 18
Damage: 15-26 / 22-25
HP: 80 / 110
Speed: 4 / 4
Initiative: 10 / 9
Shots: 4 / 6
Ability:
-Detection: Able to see any invisible or hidden unit on the field.
-Shooter:
-Magic Attack: (like Mage)
-Eyebeam: Your attack will randomly be assign as either fire, cold, or lighting elemental. It will added as bonus for elemental chains.
-Focus Eyebeam*: Like eye beam, but the attack will be at Master level. So if the attack is cold, will freeze, if fire, will decrease armor, and if lighting, will stunt.
Comment:
A better shooter than shadow witch. Its eye beam will be helpful to elemental chained wizard (who¡Çs attack¡Çs element is independent of the creature¡Çs current elemental, so it will give extra bonus). Focus Eyebeam made it even better. But its low armor and hp, randomness, and lower initative is its counter drawbacks.
Scorpion Rider / Stinger Striker
Dungeon Lv 4 (Dark Raider Alternative)
Large creature/Walker
Attack: 8 / 9
Defense: 7 / 9
Damage: 6-10 / 8-12
HP: 45 / 65
Speed: 5 / 6
Initiative: 7 / 8
Ability:
-Poisonous Attack:
-Crawler: Able to move across any obstacles in the way, and even able to crawl over the walls.
-Numbing Attack*: Active ability. Will do only half in damage, but reduce target unit¡Çs Initiative for the next few turns.
Comment:
Somewhat similar in stats as a Dark Raider, but a bit less in attack power, as well as slower and move shorter distance. It makes it up by having poisons attack, and better mobility over obstacles. Work better in a siege, or as a 2nday striker.
Infernal
Gog / Magog
Inferno Lv 2 (Horned Demon Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 2 / 3
Defense: 1 / 2
Damage: 1-3 / 1-3
HP: 7 / 8
Speed: 5 / 5
Initiative: 8 / 9
Shot: 5 / 8
Ability:
-Demonic
-Shooter:
-Fireball*: attack will damage target an all surrounding non-demonic creature (3X3 tiles) with fire damage.
Comment: Somewhat like the Gog of the old. Their stats are very poor, but the fireball upgraded ability enable them to do better area damage. Also add one more early shooter to Inferno¡Çs army.
Incubus / Incubus Duce
Inferno Lv 4 (Succubus Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 9 / 10
Defense: 7 / 9
Damage: 7-12 / 7-14
HP: 35 / 55
Speed: 6 / 7
Initiative: 10 / 11
Mana: 8 /12
Ability:
-Demonic
-Strike and Return
-Vorpal Sword*:
-Caster
-Confusion* (spell)
-Slow (spell)
-Edritch Arrow:
-FireWall*:
Comment: A multi purpose unit. A caster with few useful spells (but not a lot of mana), as well as a good mobile offensive attacker. And with Vorpal Sword, they become dangerous for any high level creatures.
Efreeti / Burning Efreeti
Inferno Lv 6 (Pit Fend Alternative)
Large creature/Flyer
Attack: 22 / 25
Defense: 18 / 18
Damage: 15-25/ 15-35
HP: 90 / 110
Speed: 7 / 7
Initiative: 11 / 11
Ability:
-Demonic
-Flyer
-Explosion
-Fire Shield*:
-Teleport*:
Comment: play a similar role as a Devil, which is a power offensive forward. Bit less in defense, but it make up for its better attack power as well as unrestricted movements, and with explosion and fire shield make it a pain to their opponents that has their units clutter in a back row.
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Well, thats all for now. Will maybe try to add other creatures to other faction when get creative again. Feedbacks are welcome, feel free to point out any balancing issues or comment on Alternative growth system. Also please post creatures you would want to see added (either as netural, altneative, or other system. But please, don't list new one for new factions, that could be save for another post)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 19, 2006 04:14 PM |
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Quote:
The Splitting Growth Tree System: Its one thing that I personally hope to see. This would mean that the new creatures/growth buildings would co-exiting with the exisiting one, but you can only pick one or other. Using an example, say for Haven, in its Lv2 creature, you can either build a Archer tower to grow Archers, or a Pikeman Barrack to grow Pikeman. But in building one, you are bar from building the other (at least in that town). I think this allow a better customization of your army, adding more variation to each¡¦s prefer playing style.
I shall at this point only give one comment here, to the Splitting Growth Tree issue. If you ever played Heroes IV, you will know that they used this model for that game - each town had two different units at each level, and you had to choose one or the other, with the exception of level 1, where you would have both.
I can see the idea behind this model, because it allows more customization and variation, as you say. However, there is one huge flaw in this model, that makes me feel this is not a good idea: When you conquered an enemy town of your own alignment, and they had build the other structures than you had chosen, the town was much less valuable. That was extremely annoying, and was for me deffinitely a major gameplay problem of Heroes IV.
Furthermore, even though it might seem like a possibility for variation, my experience from that exact game tells me that you will end up making the same choices 9/10 games. Again, to draw paralels to Heroes IV, when I played academy, I always chose Genies rather than Nagas, because their Ice Bolt special was all-important, similarly, I always chose Cyclops to Ogre Mages and so on. Thus, in the end, the degree of variation was actually quite minimal, and it only ended up to provide a lot of units in the game I never used, and that very annoying experience when you concered the Haven, and realized they chose the Paladins rather than the Angels. 
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2006 07:34 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The Splitting Growth Tree System: Its one thing that I personally hope to see. This would mean that the new creatures/growth buildings would co-exiting with the exisiting one, but you can only pick one or other. Using an example, say for Haven, in its Lv2 creature, you can either build a Archer tower to grow Archers, or a Pikeman Barrack to grow Pikeman. But in building one, you are bar from building the other (at least in that town). I think this allow a better customization of your army, adding more variation to each¡¦s prefer playing style.
I shall at this point only give one comment here, to the Splitting Growth Tree issue. If you ever played Heroes IV, you will know that they used this model for that game - each town had two different units at each level, and you had to choose one or the other, with the exception of level 1, where you would have both.
I can see the idea behind this model, because it allows more customization and variation, as you say. However, there is one huge flaw in this model, that makes me feel this is not a good idea: When you conquered an enemy town of your own alignment, and they had build the other structures than you had chosen, the town was much less valuable. That was extremely annoying, and was for me deffinitely a major gameplay problem of Heroes IV.
Furthermore, even though it might seem like a possibility for variation, my experience from that exact game tells me that you will end up making the same choices 9/10 games. Again, to draw paralels to Heroes IV, when I played academy, I always chose Genies rather than Nagas, because their Ice Bolt special was all-important, similarly, I always chose Cyclops to Ogre Mages and so on. Thus, in the end, the degree of variation was actually quite minimal, and it only ended up to provide a lot of units in the game I never used, and that very annoying experience when you concered the Haven, and realized they chose the Paladins rather than the Angels.
I must said I did not play 4, though I am aware of the system. Disciple 2 was another game that have similar system. But good point that was brought up.
Didn't go into too much details, but already is thinking that you could destory and rebuild those dweling buildings, thus could still make a conqure town more to your liking (or if you need a change of strategy). Of couse, that does need the extra cost and day to do.
On the choices. Yes, each will have a personal perfernce to their army composition, and will for most part stick with it. However, with current system, there are not too much room for such customization (unless if the resource is limited). So if you are Necro, you wouldn't really say I want to make a Flyer heavy army, rather than a shooter heavy army. (and in later game, most army will be pretty similar) The variation comes not from what you would build your army, but vary from other people.
For example, if you stick to a more shooter orientated army with Snipers, Hunter, and Druids, you might run into trouble if your oppoent build their army with lots Fast-rider/flyer. Thus would promot you to rethinking your build, or find someother way to counter that.
Well, won't expect it to be added to furture expansion, since there would be lots changing. But I just like to put up my ideal system, and the possible strategy-altering creature that could go in there.
thinking some other creature for other faction now....
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 19, 2006 11:49 PM |
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Don't get me wrong, I think every new idea posted is fun, I just wanted to give feedback to what you wrote, because this stroke me as what they tried to do in Heroes 4 - and well, it didn't work very well. Of course, the problem in that game was also the lacking opportunity to tear down, and the fact that creatures only went from levels 1-4 - giving you a total of a meagre 5 creatures per town. If you want to go with the 7 level army, that will mean a total of 14 creatures - not counting upgrades - for each town. Obviously, that'll require some creativity, but then, creativity is nice!
Some alternatives that would be interesting to work with:
- Pikemen for Marksmen
- Efreeti for Pit Lords
- Balrogs for Devils
- Mummies for Spectres
- Death Knights for Wraiths
- Mighty Gorgons for Hydras
- Giant Spiders for Grim Raiders
- Satyrs for War Dancers
However, I will still say that it won't work, simply because it'll generally be better to stick to the shooters and casters, whenever you can get them, and then bring along one or two large tank units to shield them off. You might make the change between two similar or broadly similar units - so you said, Crosbowman/Markman vs. Archer/Master Archer as an alternative, and Peasant/Conscript vs. Pikeman/Halbardeer. That would make less variation, but better balance, because you will then have only a fixed number of shooters - but then, is it worth it to do all the extra work to develop double number of units?
EDIT> On second though, I still don't think it'll be worth the trouble for the developers, but I actually think it might add an interesting twist, to make some more or less similar units, but with somewhat different specials. Good examples - Archers vs. Marksmen, choice between scatter shot or precise shot; Sharpshooters vs. Hunters, choice between precise shot or double shot; Gorgon vs. Hydra, choice between Death Stare or Multiple Heads and No Retaliation. However, I still think it should be two shooters, two walkers, two flyers or two casters, in order to keep the ballance.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 20, 2006 01:14 AM |
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I think every new idea posted is fun, I just wanted to give feedback to what you wrote, because this stroke me as what they tried to do in Heroes 4 - and well, it didn't work very well. Of course, the problem in that game was also the lacking opportunity to tear down, and the fact that creatures only went from levels 1-4 - giving you a total of a meagre 5 creatures per town. If you want to go with the 7 level army, that will mean a total of 14 creatures - not counting upgrades - for each town. Obviously, that'll require some creativity, but then, creativity is nice!
Some alternatives that would be interesting to work with:
However, I will still say that it won't work, simply because it'll generally be better to stick to the shooters and casters, whenever you can get them, and then bring along one or two large tank units to shield them off. You might make the change between two similar or broadly similar units - so you said, Crosbowman/Markman vs. Archer/Master Archer as an alternative, and Peasant/Conscript vs. Pikeman/Halbardeer. That would make less variation, but better balance, because you will then have only a fixed number of shooters - but then, is it worth it to do all the extra work to develop double number of units?
EDIT> On second though, I still don't think it'll be worth the trouble for the developers, but I actually think it might add an interesting twist, to make some more or less similar units, but with somewhat different specials. Good examples - Archers vs. Marksmen, choice between scatter shot or precise shot; Sharpshooters vs. Hunters, choice between precise shot or double shot; Gorgon vs. Hydra, choice between Death Stare or Multiple Heads and No Retaliation. However, I still think it should be two shooters, two walkers, two flyers or two casters, in order to keep the ballance.
Well, good point, and I do agree with you in that the chance of seeing this in future expansion is very very slim. But, I post more for the fun of disccussion and output of ideeas, so its all good.
Also remember, you don't need a split creature for every level. It could be done with just 2 or 3 levels. Since they are not an extra creature production building, it doesn't really matter at what level, or how many, of those split to have in town.
And as said, most army seem to be too balance, where each will have about same number of flyer, shooter, and walker. Unless owning two or more town, usually you won't be able to better customize your army to the type you like. Thus I like this better. (atleast on paper)
Anyhow, feel free to read the suggested alt creatures list above to get an idea of the possible new battle strategies that could come with it.
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HyugaHinata
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 20, 2006 03:52 AM |
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I have an idea regarding the split growth system.
If you capture an enemy town, and it has different buildings, or you simply wish to make things harder for your enemy if they recapture it, you should be able to demolish existing dwellings for a price. Revenue-generating structures could be downgraded if need be.
This would be a little like the "Scorched Earth" strategy, but not on such a great scale (destroying entire towns like they did in mission 5 of the Dungeon campaign would be going too far).
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Wacks
Adventuring Hero
Low postCount
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posted June 21, 2006 08:07 AM |
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Quote:
I have an idea regarding the split growth system.
If you capture an enemy town, and it has different buildings, or you simply wish to make things harder for your enemy if they recapture it, you should be able to demolish existing dwellings for a price. Revenue-generating structures could be downgraded if need be.
This would be a little like the "Scorched Earth" strategy, but not on such a great scale (destroying entire towns like they did in mission 5 of the Dungeon campaign would be going too far).
I don't know if you played "Heroes 3: In the Wake of the Gods", but they had that feature there. If your hero was powerful enough, he\she could destroy some buildings in a town they were visiting, daily. It would cost money to destroy these buildings, but you could salvage some wood and stone from their remains. Eventually you could destroy the town.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 21, 2006 08:35 PM |
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The idea of having this optional alternative units, at what could be made of it, fascinated me a bit. One suggestion would be something like this - each factuon will have choices for 4 of their 7 units. I haven't made stat tables for all of them yet, so I'll just describe them, and provide the Haven units as examples.
Haven:
Level 1: Pikeman - Halberdier vs. Peasant - Conscript: A more offensive unit, better stats and better damage, with reach weapon, but more expensive, and in much fewer numbers than Conscript.
Level 2: Archer - Master Archer vs. Crossbowmann - Marksman: Separating the two existing units into to alternative ones, thus providing the choice between precise shot (more damage on one unit) or scatter shot (standard damage on several units).
Level 4: Crusader - Captain vs. Griffin - Imperial Griffin: A tougher unit, that does more damage, is the return of the Heroes 3 Crusader. The expense is less speed and no flying ability.
Level 5: Monk - Zealot vs. War Priest - Inquisitor: Renaming the current priest Monk and Zealot, these units provide a deffensive spellcaster, doing less damage, but more sturdy and durable. The alternative, the offensive War Priests and Inquisitors, that will do better damage, but are much more vulnerable against forreign shooters and spell casters.
Inferno:
Level 2: Horned Demon - Horned Overseer vs. Gog - Magog: The sturdy and durable Horned Overseer, or the fragile and weak Gog, that will do some damage with its ranged (fireball?) attack. Both are slow units with poor damage ratings.
Level 4: Succubus - Succubus Mistress vs. Erinye - Erinye Sorceress: The Succubi have excellent specials, but poor statistics. The Erinye will provide more traditional shooters, with better statistics and damage ratings, and also on the upgrade with some defensive spellcasting abilities (Confusion, some curses).
Level 6: Pit Fiend - Pit Lord vs. Efreeti - Efreeti Sultans: The spellcasting Pit Lord is potent, dangerous - and slow. The Efreeti will be flying melee units, good damage and attack, and very fast, but slightly on the weaker side deffensively.
Level 7: (Arch) Devil vs. Balrog / Balor: The Balor will not have the Teleport ability of the Devil, but will attack with a long flaming wip, that will not only let them attack at a distance of one square (negating retaliation) but also give them a chance of igniting their target, for further fire damage each round.
Necropolis:
Level 2: Zombies vs. Apparition / Phantasms: Apparitions and Phantasms are incorporeal creatures, with only a very few HP but good speed and respectable damage ratings. Effectively the current Ghost.
Level 3: Ghosts - Spectres vs. (Royal) Mummies: The Ghost ought to have an increase of at least 1 point in speed, and will also have cursing touch. The Mummy is corporeal, same speed as Spectres, fair damage and good-excellent hit points. Possibly cursing attack. However, they are walkers.
Level 6: Wights - Wraiths vs. Dark Knights - Death Knights: The Wraith receives 10 % chance per Wraith of killing 1 creature, the Death Knight is nerfed to do double damage on Death Strike. The Dead Knight is faster than the Wraith and slightly more Hit Points.
Level 7: Bone Dragon / Skeleton Dragon vs. Ghost Dragon / Spectral Dragon: These two units are separated into two separate groups. The Skeleton Dragon obviously has more Hit Points and better damage, and also has skeletal special (-50 % damage from ranged), whereas the Spectral Dragon is incorporeal and faster.
Academy:
Level 2: Gargoyles vs. Nomads / Camel Wardens: The Gargoyle is obviously flying and very sturdy, but the Camel Wardens will do great damage and be fast - but low HP and defence.
Level 3: Golems vs. (War) Elephants: Both units are effectively tank units, but the Elephant will be stronger and faster, but more vulnerable towards magic.
Level 5: Djinn vs. Basilisk: The basilisk is a land unit, with petriphying gaze in melee combat. Not as fast as the Djinn, and less damage, but much better deffensively.
Level 6: Rakshasa vs. Sphinx: The Sphinx is a flying unit, faster than the Rakshasa, but with less Hit Points and without the No Retaliation ability to save it. Possibly with some sort of magic.
Dungeon:
Level 3: Minotaurs vs. Medusas: Medusas will be ranged, but do less damage and more weak than the Minotauers. Some sort of stone gaze that will petriphy but not kill targets.
Level 4: Grims Raiders vs. Giant Spiders: The Giant Spiders will not be quite as offensive as the Raiders, but will have poison that will weaken the enemy and possibly have the ability to trap them in their web. The Spider will also have excellent initiative.
Level 5: Hydra vs. Gorgons: The Gorgons will be faster than the Hydra, without being more than average speed. A sturdy unit, but nothing like the Hydra, it will be more average in all aspects, and will have the ability to spread a cloud of poisenous gass through it's nostrils that'll kill a number of creatures around target.
Level 6: Matriarchs vs. Manticore - Scorpicore: The return of the Heroes 3 Scorpicore will help out on the problem with lack of flying units for the Dungeon. The expense will be the loss of a high-level caster and shooter. The Scorpicore will be an excellent attacker, but slightly on the weak side with respect to Hit Points.
Sylvan:
Level 2: War Dancer vs. Satyr: The Satyr will be slower than the War Dancer, but be stronger with more Hit Points. Might also have the ability to raise moral with allies (aka. Mirth).
Level 3: Hunter vs. Shartshooter: The classical problem - which is best, ability to shoot twice, or no range penalty. Sharpshooter will do less damage than Hunter, but have more Hit Points
Level 5: Unicorn vs. Pegasus: The Pegasus might come as an dear help for the Sylvan lack of flying units. However, the Pegasus is much less sturdy than the Unicorn, and sending the Pegasus into the enemy ranks might cost dearly. A very fast unit, doing good but not exceptional damage, and with lowish Hit Points.
Level 6: Treants vs. Dryads: For those who think the Treant for all its bulk is too slow, the Dryad will be an interesting choice. A fragile creature, the Dryad does good damage, but will not last long if succumbed to heavy offensive pressure. The Dryad will be equiped with some very potent specials like invisibility (activated ability), no retaliation and some mid-to-powerfull deffensive spells (magic immunity, confusion).
Example - the Haven units
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 09:54 PM |
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Nice list Alcibiades, good to see you hijacking thread again 
actually, I did post some alt creature as well (so far got 3 alt creature for necro, haven, and sylvan. Dungeon and Infernal are still in concept)
Some alt level creature will be of a similar type (like a defensive walker to a more offensive walker), but I would want to see it more differnt, such as alt of Range to a Flyer, thus you have more say and customization over your army's composition.
I think if do see them added, would add more vary stategies into each of the army, what would better suit differnent's playing style.
Feel free to comment on those
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Zeldor
Known Hero
The Bringer of Pestilence
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posted June 21, 2006 11:39 PM |
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alcibiades:
You definetely have too much free time  Especially for idea that has no chance [probably about 90% people prefer actual system in h5]. Only thing that could be considered would be alternative choice of lvl1 and/or 2 creatures [like skeleton warrior or skeleton archer for necro].
P.S. You will have a chance to use your skills in modding
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 22, 2006 09:36 AM |
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Yeah, I have too much time. Or rather, I just don't do the things I ought to do. 
Actionjack > Sorry for "hijacking" your idea - but it was an interesting thought worth playing with. And yes, even though I at first wanted the units to be strichtly similar, I sort of changed my mind during the progress to be more in line with your idea of alternative strategies. However, I think one has to be carefull still, and only replace units with units of a similar "category" or lower in most cases - with category, I meen Walker, Flyer, Shooter, Caster. That doesn't need to be true everytime, but the difference shouldn't be too big - thus, offering the choice between a Treant or a Sharpshooter might be too biassed, simply because to Sharpshooter is so much better than the Treant in most cases. Certainly, there might be times where a shooter is too vulnerable, and certainly, there might be times where a tank-unit is the best defense - but in say, 9/10 situations, the Sharpshooter will just be way more powerfull than the Treant. That's not to say that the Sharpshooter isn't a great addition to the game - cause it is! - but I think rather it should be an alternative to the Hunter - in that way, it'll sort of level out. And yes, that gives less 'customerization' but giving the choice between Hunter-Druid-Treant or Hunter-Druid-Sharpshooter, I think there little doubt what people would take - and I also think there's little doubt who'd have the upper hand, if you follow me.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 06:06 PM |
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Lol! I seem to make the post in the wrong part of the forum with the same topic. Ppl didnt really like the idea of bringing back the old H4 system though I also think its the better way. The cause of mistrust might be that the H4 castles were highly unbalanced. I think upgrades are only needed if both the upgraded and unupgraded creatures are useful in the presence of the other. Maybe archer and marksman is a good example. Having 7 levels with choices is just too much work for the developers and not even necessary. I think the 4 level setup of H4 would have been enough if they had balanced it. Another thing on choices is there should be special buildings which can only be builded if you have the proper creature lair. Like with Academy`s mage and the library. The main reason I prefer this building system is because the skill system has a specializing preference. Like warlocks who take teleport assault take it mostly for hydra. With this combo the hero is using the hydra in a really efficient way. The H4 building system the special buildings and the skills helping the specialization or certain creatures could make the game even more fun by having highly different choices even inside 1 castle by the specialization.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 08:40 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, I have too much time. Or rather, I just don't do the things I ought to do.
Actionjack > Sorry for "hijacking" your idea - but it was an interesting thought worth playing with. And yes, even though I at first wanted the units to be strichtly similar, I sort of changed my mind during the progress to be more in line with your idea of alternative strategies. However, I think one has to be carefull still, and only replace units with units of a similar "category" or lower in most cases - with category, I meen Walker, Flyer, Shooter, Caster. That doesn't need to be true everytime, but the difference shouldn't be too big - thus, offering the choice between a Treant or a Sharpshooter might be too biassed, simply because to Sharpshooter is so much better than the Treant in most cases. Certainly, there might be times where a shooter is too vulnerable, and certainly, there might be times where a tank-unit is the best defense - but in say, 9/10 situations, the Sharpshooter will just be way more powerfull than the Treant. That's not to say that the Sharpshooter isn't a great addition to the game - cause it is! - but I think rather it should be an alternative to the Hunter - in that way, it'll sort of level out. And yes, that gives less 'customerization' but giving the choice between Hunter-Druid-Treant or Hunter-Druid-Sharpshooter, I think there little doubt what people would take - and I also think there's little doubt who'd have the upper hand, if you follow me.
Here is one thing you are forggeting, Alc. The shooter tend to be the better choice... WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM! As seem, because there are limited anti-shooter's (Flyer, heavy tanker, or creature with shooter protection ablity), shooter tend to get the better deal in their ablity to... well.. shoot. However, if you see the example given, with the alt creature, you could have more choice, thus the ablity to pack more anti-shooter creatures into your army.
So in example, say the suggested Sylvan army with 3 shooters (sniper for treant) willl tend to be powerful against a conventional Sylvan army (as we have now) due to its extra range attack creature. However, if the opposing army instead invested in Eagle and Night Stalkers (both, if used property, will make good anti-shooter) as well as some treant tanker and green dragon, they would make short work for any range-depended army. (but won't do as well against a defensive melee army)
It become more of a rock-paper-scissor, with the chance of winning heavly depended on your army choice and speicalization (of couse granted, there would be other way to overcome your short coming and balance the game)
Expanding the choice is what I want to see. Plus, there are just tons of creature that would be good to add to the game.
-----------------------------------------------------------
To Shassz: Yes, I don't think it is needed to have all 7level of creatures to have alt units, but selected few will do. (and they don't even needed to on the same level accross factions) Afterall, its not "More" you are getting, just more choices, so it doesn't really matter wat what level.
I do think the only 4 creature system at H4 just too few. with 4, you just won't get that many choice for your army as with the current 7. In all, I think the genral opinion of H4 is that that system failed, thus this is a mroe modified version of the better asspect of that system (Also seem in Disciple series)
I like speicalizaion better than generalization.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 22, 2006 09:12 PM |
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Actionjack > I understand your point, and in an ideal world, perhaps it might work - but well, a range of shooters packed behind a group of tanks is just a tactic that seldom goes wrong. Even if you have a unit like the eagle, that will be good against ranged units, it's still gotta get into them in order to strike them. And also, the Eagle is then only one unit - substituting what is possibly the strongest unit of the Sylvan, mind you, the Elder Druid, making it less attractive of a choice - and also, none-sylvan units will not have this choice. Of course, you could use high level Dark Magic spells to cripple them, but that goes for all units really. Of course, you can't have an army consisting of shooters only, but I still think that in 9/10 cases, you would wanna change at least 1 walker for a shooter, if you had the option. Anyway, that's just my oppinion, might be I'm just playing it too safe.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 10:27 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, I have too much time. Or rather, I just don't do the things I ought to do.
Actionjack > Sorry for "hijacking" your idea - but it was an interesting thought worth playing with. And yes, even though I at first wanted the units to be strichtly similar, I sort of changed my mind during the progress to be more in line with your idea of alternative strategies. However, I think one has to be carefull still, and only replace units with units of a similar "category" or lower in most cases - with category, I meen Walker, Flyer, Shooter, Caster. That doesn't need to be true everytime, but the difference shouldn't be too big - thus, offering the choice between a Treant or a Sharpshooter might be too biassed, simply because to Sharpshooter is so much better than the Treant in most cases. Certainly, there might be times where a shooter is too vulnerable, and certainly, there might be times where a tank-unit is the best defense - but in say, 9/10 situations, the Sharpshooter will just be way more powerfull than the Treant. That's not to say that the Sharpshooter isn't a great addition to the game - cause it is! - but I think rather it should be an alternative to the Hunter - in that way, it'll sort of level out. And yes, that gives less 'customerization' but giving the choice between Hunter-Druid-Treant or Hunter-Druid-Sharpshooter, I think there little doubt what people would take - and I also think there's little doubt who'd have the upper hand, if you follow me.
Here is one thing you are forggeting, Alc. The shooter tend to be the better choice... WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM! As seem, because there are limited anti-shooter's (Flyer, heavy tanker, or creature with shooter protection ablity), shooter tend to get the better deal in their ablity to... well.. shoot. However, if you see the example given, with the alt creature, you could have more choice, thus the ablity to pack more anti-shooter creatures into your army.
So in example, say the suggested Sylvan army with 3 shooters (sniper for treant) willl tend to be powerful against a conventional Sylvan army (as we have now) due to its extra range attack creature. However, if the opposing army instead invested in Eagle and Night Stalkers (both, if used property, will make good anti-shooter) as well as some treant tanker and green dragon, they would make short work for any range-depended army. (but won't do as well against a defensive melee army)
It become more of a rock-paper-scissor, with the chance of winning heavly depended on your army choice and speicalization (of couse granted, there would be other way to overcome your short coming and balance the game)
Expanding the choice is what I want to see. Plus, there are just tons of creature that would be good to add to the game.
-----------------------------------------------------------
To Shassz: Yes, I don't think it is needed to have all 7level of creatures to have alt units, but selected few will do. (and they don't even needed to on the same level accross factions) Afterall, its not "More" you are getting, just more choices, so it doesn't really matter wat what level.
I do think the only 4 creature system at H4 just too few. with 4, you just won't get that many choice for your army as with the current 7. In all, I think the genral opinion of H4 is that that system failed, thus this is a mroe modified version of the better asspect of that system (Also seem in Disciple series)
I like speicalizaion better than generalization.
Ive been thinking about a system where you can specialize a little bit more on 1 creature. Ive posted it on the new hero thread on this forum. Its something about giving the creature more and more specials even new abilities if it fights under the hero and a higher production rate at the castle. My first thought was a price for this was to lower the production rate of other creatures which would work well in H5 but with the H4 system a special building at all castles which would work like the same way as a cross between skill system and an artificier. I mean you could buy skills for your creatures in a tree like structure as you get your hero advance in the skilltree. The specialization here would mean that you can buy unique abilities(thats only available for the specialized heroes) for the chosen creatures. 2^4 combination of creatures + specialization + hero advancement would hold a lot of fun I think.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 22, 2006 11:05 PM |
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That sounds a lot like the Heroes 3 WOG experience system, where units got experienced, and got extra power and features depending on their "level".
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 23, 2006 07:06 AM |
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new creatures added for Dungeon and Infernal. While some inspiration taken from Alc, most I try to stay orignal, and off his evil puppet master spell.
(ablities with a * mean its for upgraded creature)
Dungeon
Troglodyte / Cave Troglodyte
Dungeon Lv 1 (Scout Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 2 / 3
Defense: 2 / 3
Damage: 1-3 / 2-3
HP: 4 / 6
Speed: 4 / 5
Initiative: 10 / 10
Ability:
-Immune to Blind:
-Scatter*: At random chance, when attack in melee, will run away (similar to frightful presence), loosing all the initiative build up at this point, but avoid the hit.
Comment:
Unlike the ranged Scout/Assassin, they are they shock troopers. (will have an additional building that would increase its growth rate to 14) Use to soak up the damage. Become more effective at later level, especially with larger number, and good luck, which will enable it to run away more, thus up its survivability.
Scorpion Rider / Stinger Striker
Dungeon Lv 4 (Dark Raider Alternative)
Large creature/Walker
Attack: 8 / 9
Defense: 7 / 9
Damage: 6-10 / 8-12
HP: 45 / 65
Speed: 5 / 6
Initiative: 7 / 8
Ability:
-Poisonous Attack:
-Crawler: Able to move across any obstacles in the way, and even able to crawl over the walls.
-Numbing Attack*: Active ability. Will do only half in damage, but reduce target unit¡¦s Initiative for the next few turns.
Comment:
Somewhat similar in stats as a Dark Raider, but a bit less in attack power, as well as slower and move shorter distance. It makes it up by having poisons attack, and better mobility over obstacles. Work better in a siege, or as a 2nday striker. (spider rider is another alternative, but I think in lore, spider are more associted with undead than dungeons, thus the scropians)
Evil Eye / Beholder
Academy Lv 6 (Shadow Witch Alternative)
Small Creature/Walker
Attack: 20 / 22
Defense: 16 / 18
Damage: 15-26 / 22-25
HP: 80 / 110
Speed: 4 / 4
Initiative: 10 / 9
Shots: 4 / 6
Ability:
-Detection: Able to see any invisible or hidden unit on the field.
-Shooter:
-Magic Attack: (like Mage)
-Eyebeam: Your attack will randomly be assign as either fire, cold, or lighting elemental. It will added as bonus for elemental chains.
-Focus Eyebeam*: Like eye beam, but the attack will be at Master level. So if the attack is cold, will freeze, if fire, will decrease armor, and if lighting, will stunt.
Comment:
A better shooter than shadow witch. Its eye beam will be helpful to elemental chained wizard (who¡¦s attack¡¦s element is independent of the creature¡¦s current elemental, so it will give extra bonus). Focus Eyebeam made it even better. But its low armor and hp, randomness, and lower initative is its counter drawbacks.
Infernal
Gog / Magog
Inferno Lv 2 (Horned Demon Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 2 / 3
Defense: 1 / 2
Damage: 1-3 / 1-3
HP: 7 / 8
Speed: 5 / 5
Initiative: 8 / 9
Shot: 5 / 8
Ability:
-Demonic
-Shooter:
-Fireball*: attack will damage target an all surrounding non-demonic creature (3X3 tiles) with fire damage.
Comment:
Somewhat like the Gog of the old. Their stats are very poor, but the fireball upgraded ability enable them to do better area damage. Also add one more early shooter to Inferno¡¦s army.
Incubus / Incubus Duce
Inferno Lv 4 (Succubus Alternative)
Small creature/Walker
Attack: 9 / 10
Defense: 7 / 9
Damage: 7-12 / 7-14
HP: 35 / 55
Speed: 6 / 7
Initiative: 10 / 11
Mana: 8 /12
Ability:
-Demonic
-Strike and Return
-Vorpal Sword*:
-Caster
-Confusion* (spell)
-Slow (spell)
-Edritch Arrow:
-FireWall*:
Comment:
A multi purpose unit. A caster with few useful spells (but not a lot of mana), as well as a good mobile offensive attacker. And with Vorpal Sword, they become dangerous for any high level creatures.
Efreeti / Burning Efreeti
Inferno Lv 6 (Pit Fend Alternative)
Large creature/Flyer
Attack: 22 / 25
Defense: 18 / 18
Damage: 15-25/ 15-35
HP: 90 / 110
Speed: 7 / 7
Initiative: 11 / 11
Ability:
-Demonic
-Flyer
-Explosion
-Fire Shield*:
-Teleport*:
Comment:
play a similar role as a Devil, which is a power offensive forward. Bit less in defense, but it make up for its better attack power as well as unrestricted movements, and with explosion and fire shield make it a pain to their opponents that has their units clutter in a back row.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 23, 2006 09:52 AM |
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Nice.  I love the Troglodyte scatter ability, that's brilliant. And I can't believe I didn't think of the Evil Eye / Beholder alternative to Shadow With / Matriarch - that's very good.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 24, 2006 09:50 AM |
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Quote:
That sounds a lot like the Heroes 3 WOG experience system, where units got experienced, and got extra power and features depending on their "level".
I should try this WOG I guess
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 24, 2006 11:30 AM |
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Since you guys post creatures here I share my idea of a level 7(usefull unlike bone/shadow dragon unit) usefull necro unit. Since necros mostly have the raise dead spell low hp for a creature is not much of a problem. But being such a weak ass as the necro dragons is just a big problem. Necros with all their weakening ablities dont have a real caster on the battlefield. The Archlich has some nice spells but since it has really nice stats most ppl use it for ranged attack. Since necros have some great hordes and the necromancy ability and the converter building help them much to even improve their numbers I think a real dark magic spellcaster is needed at level 7. So here is my creature proposal:
Banshee/Banshee queen
Necro level 7
Small creature / warper
Attack: 20/20
Defense: 20/22
Damage: 20-25/20-25
HP: 140/150
Manna: 25/32
Speed: 7/7
Initiative: 14/16
Abilities:
-Incorporeal
-Banshee howl
-Spells: Vulnerability(Exp level), Cripple, Confusion(Exp level)
(queen abilities from here)
-spirit link
-Spells: Aging, mass effects for above spells.
-Banshee howl: lowers the moral of nme troops by 1/8 banshee or 1/6 banshee queen (min 1) the effect last for 0.1*b or 0.15*bq turns (no minimum).
-Cripple: lowers the min and max dmg for the nme stack by 10% for banshee and 20% for queen. Cannot lower it below 30% of original. Can be healed by healing tent resurrection or other healing spells. Mass has area effect not whole battlefield. 8 manna for simple 12 for mass.
-Aging: lowers the HP of every member of the nme stack by 1%/2 banshee queen. Cannot lower the target`s HP below 50% of original. Only working on living creatures. Only works on meele range since it must touch the nme. The cost is 20 manna.
I gave some special abilities power based on the number of creatures so it worth to convert to undead even for level 7 creatures. The only problem is that this creature loses its effectiveness in very large stacks since it has limits on its spells. Maybe banshee howl can lower the nme moral down to nowhere which is kinda usefull I guess. Although this creature would render the necros ultimate kinda useless since it has all the specials that has.
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