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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 09:33 AM |
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Peasant/Conscript
Peasant/Conscript(22) vs. Scout/Assasin(7) - peasant is useless for fighting, the worst lvl 1 in the game, but it generates money, so it has a utility. Scout is a little better in combat, but comes in very low numbers, lower than most lvl 2 units, has range penalty, i'd pick the peasant over the scout anytime, since the peasant has a usage. Assasin gets the poisson ability, which is nice, the conscript gets double health, and 50% more damage... and it comes in much greater numbers... It's better to train the peasants if you have the money , but if you dont , the upgrade to Conscript before the final battle is a good option, and I think that with their high numbers and improved health , the Conscripts will easily defeat the Assasins( not to mention Frenzy and Vitality).
Peasant/Conscript(22) vs. Pixie/Sprite(10) - The peasant has the strong points mentioned above ... The pixie, comes in low numbers... but has no enemy retaliation, and has high speed & initiative ... a little better in combat, but the money generated by the peasant, make up for that... When you upgrade to Sprites, you get a caster unit... and Wasp Swarm can be pretty good in the early battles. As numbers of sprites grow, it becomes useless dealing too low damage, and in the final battle it is useless ... you can cast cleansing twice with them, but they will die instantly when attacked , i'd say the Conscript can defeat them easily with his more than double numbers. But for their casting abilities ( especially cleansing) , i'd say they as good as the Conscripts.
Obviously, the other lvl 1 creatures are better then the Conscript , you can't compare the conscript to skell archers, master gremlins or those mana eating Imps.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 10:10 AM |
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assassin will kick conscripts' butt anytime, any day. Don't even TRY to argue !! 
Same for sprite.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 10:15 AM |
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Quote:
assassin will kick conscripts' butt anytime, any day. Don't even TRY to argue !!
Same for sprite.
oh come on ... 100 Assasins vs. 300+ Conscripts , you say the Assasins win ?! the assasins are a pathetic unit , low lvl 2 strength at most, and growth of a lvl 3 ?!
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neoexdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 11:04 AM |
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Peasants can do one thing that assasins can't which is upgrade to archer. And they partially pay for the upgrade cost thanks to their taxpayer ability.
And Marksmen>Assasins
Of course this is true only if you have enough money.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 11:29 AM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 11:45, 18 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
Quote:
assassin will kick conscripts' butt anytime, any day. Don't even TRY to argue !!
Same for sprite.
oh come on ... 100 Assasins vs. 300+ Conscripts , you say the Assasins win ?! the assasins are a pathetic unit , low lvl 2 strength at most, and growth of a lvl 3 ?!
Assassins are strongest level 1 in melee. Conscripts will have to face them after weakened by poison and shooting in melee. Also Assassins (init 12) will act 50% more frequently than Conscripts (init 8).
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 12:01 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
assassin will kick conscripts' butt anytime, any day. Don't even TRY to argue !!
Same for sprite.
oh come on ... 100 Assasins vs. 300+ Conscripts , you say the Assasins win ?! the assasins are a pathetic unit , low lvl 2 strength at most, and growth of a lvl 3 ?!
Assassins are strongest level 1 in melee. Conscripts will have to face them after weakened by poison and shooting in melee.
The Assassins might win if they were going in some kind of strange personal duel, in which the peasants would have to cross the field to reach the targeted assassins ...
In a real battle though , things are much different , and the +50% health , and +50% dmg / growth of the peasant , will be decisive. If the knight has battle frenzy , and vitality , which he probably will have the difference becomes even bigger... Useless to say that Battle Frenzy and Vitality are not a priority for dungeon heroes, and also not very important for assassins & other low lvl dungeon creatures.
So in the long run the money providing peasants, and their upgrades, the conscripts, are more important than the high quality / low growth assassins.
Anyway Dungeon heavily relies on its destructive spells, I see their creatures only as cannon foder, which must resist until the hero's spells crush the opponent... Unfortunately the dungeon troops, except the hydra and maybe the black dragon, are not very good tanks , because of their low numbers. Giving them this unhealthy low lvl creatures, might be a way of balancing things .
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 12:15 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 12:16, 18 Jul 2006.
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Ah, but Poison doesn't take opponents Defence into account : Those hundred Assassins you mentioned do 100 x 3 damage to their target(s). They are very useful in real battle, especially against higher level units.
But to each his own.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 12:38 PM |
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Quote:
Ah, but Poison doesn't take opponents Defence into account : Those hundred Assassins you mentioned do 100 x 3 damage to their target(s). They are very useful in real battle, especially against higher level units.
But to each his own.
100 dmg / turn doesnt seem that much ... 300 battle frenzied conscripts do 600 - 900 dmg +- bonuses .... 500 avg dmg to high lvl creatures / turn , and almost 750 to low lvl creatures / turn . I'd say these are pretty impresive numbers for some upgraded peasants  )
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NuWorld
Hired Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 12:49 PM |
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Quote:
The Assassins might win if they were going in some kind of strange personal duel, in which the peasants would have to cross the field to reach the targeted assassins ...
Oh c'mon, you'll be losing 50 conscripts every turn just from poison. Even in close combat I don't see how conscripts can win considering pathetic damage and HP, even with frenzy and vitality. Just do the math.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 01:00 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The Assassins might win if they were going in some kind of strange personal duel, in which the peasants would have to cross the field to reach the targeted assassins ...
Oh c'mon, you'll be losing 50 conscripts every turn just from poison. Even in close combat I don't see how conscripts can win considering pathetic damage and HP, even with frenzy and vitality. Just do the math.
i'll do the math for you :
6 health nrm conscript
8 health vit conscript
100 poisson dmg / turn
100 / 6 = 16,.... cons
100 / 8 = 12,.... cons
1 hit from the 300 cons to you 100 assassins = ~750 dmg with BF
750 / 12 = 62,...
these are the numbers ... the conscripts are really underrated by everyone, and their big numbers , low cost is playing in their favor + they also have the Shield Bash ability.
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NuWorld
Hired Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 01:31 PM |
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Assassins have 14 HP not 12 and will have the first strike so you can write off 50 conscripts straight away. Nevermind, this is all pretty theoretical since conscripts would never get a chance to engage assassins on battlefield and warlock has excellent low level strikers so it's very unlikely that he won't have battle frenzy and vitality too.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 18, 2006 01:47 PM |
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Hey Towerlord snap out of it!You are being a bit unrealist!Not many serious players buy peasants even less upg them(not until much later in the game).Taxpayer is better in the long run??!A peasant costs 20 gold and generates 7 per week.You are overcharged in earlygame(bad idea;Really I mean it!) and don't gain much more later(not really a gold mine).Any warlock is free to come with 7 stacks of 1 scout and lightning bolt them,then retreat if he ever cares.And the assasins can kill effortlessly a few 6-7 tier creatures in a good battle.If the conscripts even attack first something they will probably perish from the retaliation.They'll be dead before that happens unless other stacks are powerful.
And dungeon creatures aren't cannon fodder.That's what I thought when I was a beginner in H2 a long time ago in a galaxy far far away...They don't need to be tanks to be effective(blood furies come to mind )
And if you are to consider vitality,b frenzy,training I might as well take into account warlock's luck,empowered spells,master of storms etc.Let's not wrack our brains over that,shall we?
After all how would a 'conscript pwnage'() make haven superior to othr factions?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Klaital
Known Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 01:48 PM |
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I would never take vitality, or even defense skill, for a warlock. The growth rates of your creatures are way too low to make them much of a difference. Attack is a bit better, though mainly for the tactics skill which makes your blood furies even better.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 02:15 PM |
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Quote:
Hey Towerlord snap out of it!You are being a bit unrealist!Not many serious players buy peasants even less upg them(not until much later in the game).Taxpayer is better in the long run??!A peasant costs 20 gold and generates 7 per week.You are overcharged in earlygame(bad idea;Really I mean it!) and don't gain much more later(not really a gold mine).Any warlock is free to come with 7 stacks of 1 scout and lightning bolt them,then retreat if he ever cares.And the assasins can kill effortlessly a few 6-7 tier creatures in a good battle.If the conscripts even attack first something they will probably perish from the retaliation.They'll be dead before that happens unless other stacks are powerful.
And dungeon creatures aren't cannon fodder.That's what I thought when I was a beginner in H2 a long time ago in a galaxy far far away...They don't need to be tanks to be effective(blood furies come to mind)
And if you are to consider vitality,b frenzy,training I might as well take into account warlock's luck,empowered spells,master of storms etc.Let's not wrack our brains over that,shall we?
After all how would a 'conscript pwnage'() make haven superior to othr factions?
20 gold doesnt seem overcharge to me ... 440 or 880 per week is not much... and you'll get that gold back in 3 weeks, and you'll also have the peasants in your castle waiting to be upgraded or trained .... not to mention isabel .
How does a lvl 20 dungeon hero look?
5-6 0 15 3-4 , or something like that ...
And a knight ?
10 9 x x ... can your dungeon troops be of any threat to my troops which have ~ +15 stats on them ? doubtfull , very doubtfull... they will make reduced amounts of damage and take huge amounts of damage because you have no defense ...
so how does dungeon win the battle ?! must keep those troops alive until you crush the opponent with implosions and meteor showers . You'd be very happy if you'd have treants instead of those lvl 6 shooters , trust me ... and squires that shield your troops instead of those minotaurs!
You must understand that the dungeon hero doesnt enhance his troops cause his primary skills are actually only one skill (spell power) , and he doesn't use dark magic or light magic either, cause he would waste his precious implosions... he might cast a fireball from time to time, reducing the defense of the enemies, but most of the times he'll choose meteor shower over fireball.
Maybe if you choose a hero from another town, a knight or a ranger, the dungeon troops might be surprinsing ... but right now , I hardly can see a dungeon army led by a non warlock
And in the end , I don't think that heavens superiority is in the peasants , if you would read from the beggining , you would see that , but the peasants and conscripts are considered the worst lvl 1 by many and in my oppinion that's incorrect! They are very usefull , and sometimes they can play a very important role in your army
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 02:22 PM |
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and also in H3 , there where might heroes and magic heroes for every town, and it was easier to choose a hero from another town than it is right now, that's why dungeon troops were not cannon foder. I don't remember H2 too good , but I think it was the same ( with might hero & magic hero ) ... And also there were the Black Dragon + Armaggedon or Chain Lightning Strategies or other powerfull spells , for dungeon ... so things were a lot different back then.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 18, 2006 03:01 PM |
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Quote:
so how does dungeon win the battle ?! must keep those troops alive until you crush the opponent with implosions and meteor showers . You'd be very happy if you'd have treants instead of those lvl 6 shooters , trust me ... and squires that shield your troops instead of those minotaurs!
You must understand that the dungeon hero doesnt enhance his troops cause his primary skills are actually only one skill (spell power) , and he doesn't use dark magic or light magic either, cause he would waste his precious implosions... he might cast a fireball from time to time, reducing the defense of the enemies, but most of the times he'll choose meteor shower over fireball.
Maybe if you choose a hero from another town, a knight or a ranger, the dungeon troops might be surprinsing ... but right now , I hardly can see a dungeon army led by a non warlock
And in the end , I don't think that heavens superiority is in the peasants , if you would read from the beggining , you would see that , but the peasants and conscripts are considered the worst lvl 1 by many and in my oppinion that's incorrect! They are very usefull , and sometimes they can play a very important role in your army
They can still stand up to a high def knight.Assasins use poison which ignores defence,furies attack frequently with no retaliation(probably not for long though),shadow witches slow the units,raiders reduce defence.Warlocks will probably have as much attack as knight and along with these specials there is the fireball trick you mentioned(at least one in the beginning if you try to protect your ranged units with squires-though a meteor shower would do)My attack should be fine.Minotaurs and hydras are a bit of a liability but when haven will go to them they can last for a while and also get some painful attacks off.But as I said if you want to take into account the attributes I can take take account the spells which means you will have less (high stats) troops.But yes dungeon was never meant to be might oriented and the might-magic tradeoff doesn't disappoint me.
As for peasants,they have their uses but are not really threatening in the battlefield and don't offer much.I prefer more battle adept creatures than (little) money generating ones I guess.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 18, 2006 04:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
so how does dungeon win the battle ?! must keep those troops alive until you crush the opponent with implosions and meteor showers . You'd be very happy if you'd have treants instead of those lvl 6 shooters , trust me ... and squires that shield your troops instead of those minotaurs!
You must understand that the dungeon hero doesnt enhance his troops cause his primary skills are actually only one skill (spell power) , and he doesn't use dark magic or light magic either, cause he would waste his precious implosions... he might cast a fireball from time to time, reducing the defense of the enemies, but most of the times he'll choose meteor shower over fireball.
Maybe if you choose a hero from another town, a knight or a ranger, the dungeon troops might be surprinsing ... but right now , I hardly can see a dungeon army led by a non warlock
And in the end , I don't think that heavens superiority is in the peasants , if you would read from the beggining , you would see that , but the peasants and conscripts are considered the worst lvl 1 by many and in my oppinion that's incorrect! They are very usefull , and sometimes they can play a very important role in your army
They can still stand up to a high def knight.Assasins use poison which ignores defence,furies attack frequently with no retaliation(probably not for long though),shadow witches slow the units,raiders reduce defence.Warlocks will probably have as much attack as knight and along with these specials there is the fireball trick you mentioned(at least one in the beginning if you try to protect your ranged units with squires-though a meteor shower would do)My attack should be fine.Minotaurs and hydras are a bit of a liability but when haven will go to them they can last for a while and also get some painful attacks off.But as I said if you want to take into account the attributes I can take take account the spells which means you will have less (high stats) troops.But yes dungeon was never meant to be might oriented and the might-magic tradeoff doesn't disappoint me.
As for peasants,they have their uses but are not really threatening in the battlefield and don't offer much.I prefer more battle adept creatures than (little) money generating ones I guess.
I must say i consider the dungeon the hardest of all the opponents , a heaven can have ...but in the long run i still think heaven can win !
I don't think the attack of a warlock grows as fast as the attack of the knight, but supposing it does, it will as big as the defense of the knight, so no bonus there ... At the same time the bonus for the knight attack vs the dungeon defense is pretty big ... and also the knight WILL also cast light magic mass spells like haste, righteous migth, endurance , divine strength , benediction ... making those creatures even stronger . As I said before , against dungeon it's all about offense , going straight for the enemy( perhaps taking tactics is very usefull so you can reach him faster) , so ther will be no squires shielding the archers , especially because of meteor shower and secondly because dungeons ranged troops are not too scary  . So it will be like a race between the implosions and meteor showers of the warlock , and the pure damage of the heaven troops . I also think the warlock can't afford to lose an important turn casting fireball instead of implosion, especially since the heaven troops won't be grouped.
The race winner will usualy be the dungeon if the game is in its early stages, cause the spells will easily take down small amounts of troops, but if the game is LONG , the boosted troops of heaven will deal much bigger damage than the dungeon spells + ( dungeon troops) and will win. I consider the damage of the dungeon troops neglectable, compared to the dmg of the heaven ones , because of the knights skills & light spells !
The question is : can dungeon afford a lvl 4-5 mage guild and troops in the early stages of the game , and will the warlock have enough knowledge ?! If so , he can start a deadly attack . But most of the times he won't be able to do this so early , and the game will be longer! At least I hope so
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 04:28 PM |
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you don't need lvl5. Lvl2 and storm/ice mastery is enough in earlygame. Perfect for rush, not only dealing good damage, but also disabling the unit.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 18, 2006 05:22 PM |
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If we consider a several month game I cannot but agree.As for an early game rush all that is required is a combination of the following: destructive magic->dark ritual->secrets of destruction(prime prerequisite),luck->soldier's luck->warlock's luck,attack->tactics,logistics->scouting->teleport assault,enlightenment->intelligence or sorcery->arcane training.I usually go for secrets of destruction,then tactics(for furies).As for sorcery or enlightenment it depends.In a long game I'd consider substituting attack with leadrship.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 05:24 PM |
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Facts about Assassins vs Conscripts (it's pure math, nothing else):
Assassin
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Attack: 4
Defense: 3
Damage: 2-4 (50% range so 1-2)
Initiative: 12
Movement: 5
Hit Points: 14
Shots: 5
Conscript
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Attack: 1
Defense: 1
Damage: 1-2
Initiative: 8
Movement: 4
Hit Points: 6
Here's how it would go down in battle with 7 assassins vs 22 conscripts (this is COMPLETELY ignoring attack and defense, which is FOR the assassins, NOT conscripts):
Assassin goes 1st because of 12 initiative.
1) Assassins shoot conscripts inflicting 7 to 14 damage (range penalty). This kills 1 to 2 conscripts. (7 assassins vs 20-21 conscripts)
2) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt. Conscripts walk with movement of 4 toward assassins. (7 assassins vs 19-20 conscripts)
3) Assassins shoot conscripts inflicting 7 to 14 damage killing 1 or 2 more conscripts. (7 assassins vs 17-19 conscripts)
4) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt. Conscripts walk with movement of 4 toward assassins (STILL don't reach). (7 assassins vs 15-18 conscripts).
5) Assassins move up and attack with melee attack. This time, 14-28 damage. This kills 2-5 conscripts based on previous damage. (7 assassins vs 10-16 conscripts).
6) Conscripts retaliate and do 10 to 32 damage (based on number left and min vs max damage). (5-7 assassins vs 10-16 conscripts).
7) Assassins get another attack because of initiative. This time, 10-28 damage. This kills 1-5 conscripts based on previous damage. (7 assassins vs 5-15 conscripts). (no retaliation from conscripts this turn).
7) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt. Conscripts attack assassins doing 4 to 28 damage based on number left and min vs max damage. Kills 0 to 2 assassins based on previous damage. (3-6 assassins vs 4-14 conscripts).
8) Assassins melee attack. 6-24 damage killing 1 to 4 conscripts based on previous damage. (3-6 assassins vs 0-13 conscripts).
*** At this point, the fight can be over, but let's assume the worst, 13 conscripts left.
9) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt. Conscripts attack assassins doing 11 to 24 damage based on number left and min vs max damage. Kills 0 to 2 assassins based on previous damage. (1-5 assassins vs 11-12 conscripts).
10) Assassins retaliate. 2 to 20 damage. Kills 0 to 3 conscripts. (1-5 assassins vs 9-12 conscripts).
11) Assassins melee attack. 2-20 damage killing 0 to 2 conscripts based on previous damage. (1-5 assassins vs 9-12 conscripts).
12) Conscripts take 5-7 damage from poison (since it lasts 3 turns, number may have been less since 3rd turn now). Kills 0 to 1 conscript. Conscripts attack doing 8 to 22 damage. Kills 0 to 2 assassins based on previous damage. (0-4 assasins vs 7-11 conscripts).
*** At this point, fight may be over from conscripts winning.
So we've crossed into the realm of both winners here. But if you look at the data, the assassins COULD have wiped out the conscripts first, so that increases the chances of them being the winners. Also, as mentioned, attack and defense wasn't calculated in, giving an even BIGGER advantage to the assassins.
These are all just rough numbers, but pretty close since I used ranges.
So the bottom line is this, the 7 assassins have a higher chance of winning vs conscripts but it IS possible for the conscripts to win.
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