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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heavan superiority ?!
Thread: Heavan superiority ?! This thread is 24 pages long: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 20 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
BigBadVoodoo
BigBadVoodoo


A poster
posted July 18, 2006 06:31 PM

Quote:
especially if you pick Douglas...those extra archers really help, but even without him, you still have some ranged units and dungeon has the scouts which cant be called ranged



as of right now, the undisputable best haven hero is klaus, by far

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 18, 2006 09:23 PM

math shows that they can win in theory, but in practice, they never can. Don't ask me why ^_^

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted July 18, 2006 09:48 PM

Quote:
math shows that they can win in theory, but in practice, they never can. Don't ask me why ^_^


Are you playing against Neutral Assassins as Conscripts?  If so, remember the hero's attack and defense bonuses.  You would need heroes with the same attack and defense in order to compare accurately.  That could be where the "practice" is different than theory.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 18, 2006 09:53 PM

agreed, but, the heroes never have the same stats (or it's very unlikely to happen). That's why the calculations remain a theory

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 19, 2006 08:46 AM

Quote:
Facts about Assassins vs Conscripts (it's pure math, nothing else):

Assassin
--------
Attack: 4
Defense: 3
Damage: 2-4 (50% range so 1-2)
Initiative: 12
Movement: 5
Hit Points: 14
Shots: 5

Conscript
---------
Attack: 1
Defense: 1
Damage: 1-2
Initiative: 8
Movement: 4
Hit Points: 6

Here's how it would go down in battle with 7 assassins vs 22 conscripts (this is COMPLETELY ignoring attack and defense, which is FOR the assassins, NOT conscripts):

Assassin goes 1st because of 12 initiative.

1) Assassins shoot conscripts inflicting 7 to 14 damage (range penalty).  This kills 1 to 2 conscripts. (7 assassins vs 20-21 conscripts)
2) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt.  Conscripts walk with movement of 4 toward assassins. (7 assassins vs 19-20 conscripts)
3) Assassins shoot conscripts inflicting 7 to 14 damage killing 1 or 2 more conscripts.  (7 assassins vs 17-19 conscripts)
4) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt.  Conscripts walk with movement of 4 toward assassins (STILL don't reach).  (7 assassins vs 15-18 conscripts).
5) Assassins move up and attack with melee attack.  This time, 14-28 damage.  This kills 2-5 conscripts based on previous damage.  (7 assassins vs 10-16 conscripts).
6) Conscripts retaliate and do 10 to 32 damage (based on number left and min vs max damage).  (5-7 assassins vs 10-16 conscripts).
7) Assassins get another attack because of initiative.  This time, 10-28 damage.  This kills 1-5 conscripts based on previous damage.  (7 assassins vs 5-15 conscripts).  (no retaliation from conscripts this turn).
7) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt.  Conscripts attack assassins doing 4 to 28 damage based on number left and min vs max damage.  Kills 0 to 2 assassins based on previous damage.  (3-6 assassins vs 4-14 conscripts).
8) Assassins melee attack.  6-24 damage killing 1 to 4 conscripts based on previous damage.  (3-6 assassins vs 0-13 conscripts).

*** At this point, the fight can be over, but let's assume the worst, 13 conscripts left.

9) Conscripts take 7 damage from poison, kills 1 to 2 conscripts based on the previous damage delt.  Conscripts attack assassins doing 11 to 24 damage based on number left and min vs max damage.  Kills 0 to 2 assassins based on previous damage.  (1-5 assassins vs 11-12 conscripts).
10) Assassins retaliate.  2 to 20 damage.  Kills 0 to 3 conscripts.  (1-5 assassins vs 9-12 conscripts).
11) Assassins melee attack.  2-20 damage killing 0 to 2 conscripts based on previous damage.  (1-5 assassins vs 9-12 conscripts).
12) Conscripts take 5-7 damage from poison (since it lasts 3 turns, number may have been less since 3rd turn now).  Kills 0 to 1 conscript.  Conscripts attack doing 8 to 22 damage.  Kills 0 to 2 assassins based on previous damage.  (0-4 assasins vs 7-11 conscripts).

*** At this point, fight may be over from conscripts winning.

So we've crossed into the realm of both winners here.  But if you look at the data, the assassins COULD have wiped out the conscripts first, so that increases the chances of them being the winners.  Also, as mentioned, attack and defense wasn't calculated in, giving an even BIGGER advantage to the assassins.

These are all just rough numbers, but pretty close since I used ranges.

So the bottom line is this, the 7 assassins have a higher chance of winning vs conscripts but it IS possible for the conscripts to win.


nice analysys , but i think they do 3.5 - 7 dmg , when the conscripts are out of range ! They have the 50% penalty for shooting at far targets and another 50% from thier "speciality" range penalty!
Anyway you should make your analisys supposing they are one , next to the other, if you want to have a duel... what king of fight is this ?! Thinking like this you might also say that the furies would defeat the Iron Golems cause they can run all over the map and the Golems will never catch them.

That will never happen in a real battle. As I said before , in a real battle , the knight will probably have Battle Frenzy and Vitality , making the Conscripts much more powerfull than those assassins, and if the warlock has Battle Frenzy and Vitality, it won't count that much for the assassins.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 19, 2006 08:48 AM

Quote:
you don't need lvl5. Lvl2 and storm/ice mastery is enough in earlygame. Perfect for rush, not only dealing good damage, but also disabling the unit.


I think the Castle Towers might stop you by themselves in such an early rush

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 19, 2006 08:53 AM

Quote:
If we consider a several month game I cannot but agree.As for an early game rush all that is required is a combination of the following: destructive magic->dark ritual->secrets of destruction(prime prerequisite),luck->soldier's luck->warlock's luck,attack->tactics,logistics->scouting->teleport assault,enlightenment->intelligence or sorcery->arcane training.I usually go for secrets of destruction,then tactics(for furies).As for sorcery or enlightenment it depends.In a long game I'd consider substituting attack with leadrship.


It will depend on the map very much...but after one month and 1/2 I think heavens chances of winning are quite ok.

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neoexdeath
neoexdeath


Adventuring Hero
posted July 19, 2006 09:19 AM

Quote:
As I said before , in a real battle , the knight will probably have Battle Frenzy and Vitality , making the Conscripts much more powerfull than those assassins, and if the warlock has Battle Frenzy and Vitality, it won't count that much for the assassins.

And warlock will have destructive magic, empowered spells and sorcery and will blast those conscripts into oblivion
Just in case you forgot there is another hero on the battlefield

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NuWorld
NuWorld


Hired Hero
posted July 19, 2006 12:26 PM

Quote:
I would never take vitality, or even defense skill, for a warlock. The growth rates of your creatures are way too low to make them much of a difference. Attack is a bit better, though mainly for the tactics skill which makes your blood furies even better.


I kinda got used to it because all 3 perks are very good, pretty much use it with all factions.
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted July 19, 2006 02:12 PM

Quote:
nice analysys , but i think they do 3.5 - 7 dmg , when the conscripts are out of range ! They have the 50% penalty for shooting at far targets and another 50% from thier "speciality" range penalty!
Anyway you should make your analisys supposing they are one , next to the other, if you want to have a duel... what king of fight is this ?! Thinking like this you might also say that the furies would defeat the Iron Golems cause they can run all over the map and the Golems will never catch them.

That will never happen in a real battle. As I said before , in a real battle , the knight will probably have Battle Frenzy and Vitality , making the Conscripts much more powerfull than those assassins, and if the warlock has Battle Frenzy and Vitality, it won't count that much for the assassins.


Hmmmmmmm, not sure about that "special" range disadvantage.  I think you are mistaken there.  What that disadvantage means is no matter HOW close you are to the enemy, you only get 50%.  If you were 2 squares away, 50%.  8 squares, 50%.  That's my understanding at least.  Anyone officially check that out?

Also, comparing "real battles" is useless for comparing UNITS.  It's comparing apples and oranges.  Why not throw the skill of the player in too?  Why not talk about someone who sat in their base and didn't level up vs someone that leveled up more?  It's irrelevent to discuss such things.  Therefore, ALL you can do is compare unit stats to unit stats.  Like someone mentioned, throw in the destructive magic of the warlock if you want to throw in other abilities from the hero to "help" your conscripts.  Again, it's useless to do this.  Strategy games can ONLY be played AS strategy when you understand the base comparisons of things.

Assassins vs Conscripts - Assassins have a greater chance of winning if everyone bought max units for the week.  You look at that first.  Then, you look at your spells, what other units you have, abilities, etc.  But you HAVE to break it down into small pieces for analysis.  Otherwise you have no clue what your REAL chance of winning against someone else will be.  It's pretty simple to do but for some reason a lot of people can't analyze like this.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 19, 2006 03:41 PM

Quote:

Hmmmmmmm, not sure about that "special" range disadvantage.  I think you are mistaken there.  What that disadvantage means is no matter HOW close you are to the enemy, you only get 50%.  If you were 2 squares away, 50%.  8 squares, 50%.  That's my understanding at least.  Anyone officially check that out?


I think their ranged damage is strangely low ... but i might be wrong! Not sure about this ... but archers also have 2-4 , and they don't seem so underpowered.

Anyway it's wrong to compare a ranged unit to a melee unit like that!



Also, comparing "real battles" is useless for comparing UNITS.  It's comparing apples and oranges.  Why not throw the skill of the player in too?  Why not talk about someone who sat in their base and didn't level up vs someone that leveled up more?  It's irrelevent to discuss such things.  Therefore, ALL you can do is compare unit stats to unit stats.  Like someone mentioned, throw in the destructive magic of the warlock if you want to throw in other abilities from the hero to "help" your conscripts.  Again, it's useless to do this.  Strategy games can ONLY be played AS strategy when you understand the base comparisons of things.

Assassins vs Conscripts - Assassins have a greater chance of winning if everyone bought max units for the week.  You look at that first.  Then, you look at your spells, what other units you have, abilities, etc.  But you HAVE to break it down into small pieces for analysis.  Otherwise you have no clue what your REAL chance of winning against someone else will be.  It's pretty simple to do but for some reason a lot of people can't analyze like this.


You don't want to see the big picture here... and you forget that the pieces put togheter might be much stronger than the simple sum of them. If you will do your analisys like that , most of the times you will be incorrect. Destructive spells are very important for the warlock indeed, but the knight will also have his Light spells... He could get Ressurection , or Magic Imunity and many Mass Spells. So things are quite even here ... Your spells won't come as free hits , the knight wont stand there and watch ... He will try to help his troops also!

And the conclusion to what I am saying is :
Conscripts have a much larger base of improvement than the assassins! becoming much more powerfull than this ones. And for all the game the peasants are paying you to have them in your army! When the time comes for the final battle you simply upgrade them , or train them and they will give a boost to your army !

What do the assassins do ?! they can't help you creep too much cause they are weak , and in the final battle they are weaker than the conscrips. Now you decide who is more usefull . Personally I choose the peasants / conscripts!

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Klaital
Klaital


Known Hero
posted July 19, 2006 03:51 PM

The assasins range penalty means that their damage is halved at range, if they are also in the broken arrow range, then it is halved again. That is why scouts are completely useless, as they do same damage as gremlins but are far less numerous, the poison damage of assasins is their only saving grace as it usually does more damage than the actual attack from the assasin.
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Greggy
Greggy


Hired Hero
posted July 19, 2006 07:21 PM
Edited by Greggy at 19:22, 19 Jul 2006.

nm
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted July 19, 2006 07:42 PM

Quote:
The assasins range penalty means that their damage is halved at range, if they are also in the broken arrow range, then it is halved again. That is why scouts are completely useless, as they do same damage as gremlins but are far less numerous, the poison damage of assasins is their only saving grace as it usually does more damage than the actual attack from the assasin.


That would totally change my estimates above if that is in fact true.  Assassins would be much weaker if it's 1/4 damage with broken arrow.  I could definately see how conscripts could compete then.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 20, 2006 08:16 AM

There is no information I can find that makes the Assassin give 1/4 damage at broken arrow range - according to the skill description, the Assassin just has broken arrow at all ranges (= ½ damage) but does full melee damage.

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Klaital
Klaital


Known Hero
posted July 20, 2006 08:25 AM

Observe their damage in the game and you notice how pathetic damage they do at long range.
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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 20, 2006 09:40 AM

Quote:
Observe their damage in the game and you notice how pathetic damage they do at long range.


Yep

They have pathetic damage because of their number and the range penalty.

Assassin damage range is 2-4. If they attack at range it is 1-2. If the target is too far that's 1/4 damage. So it is now 0.5-1 per assasin.

Tested in game with 14 assassins, the damage range is 7-15.
14 * (0.5-1) = 7-14

You are right.


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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 20, 2006 11:31 AM

think about them as melee fighters with a long-range poison ability. The ranged ability is just an add-on ;P

I also thought that they suck, but I changed my mind after playing many games with dungeon. They are a very valuable backup unit. For hard hitting, use lizards and furies (blackies in the very end of the game) ^_^

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 20, 2006 02:27 PM

I vote them as the worst lvl 1 in the game

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NuWorld
NuWorld


Hired Hero
posted July 20, 2006 02:34 PM

Conscripts, right? Yea, me too
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