|
| Thread: The Ultimate Skills Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
posted April 02, 2007 04:54 PM |
|
|
Sorry, but I must again speak against these super-duper-extra-hyper-powered abilities. I don't think you can solve the fact that many of the abilities require lousy combinations by making the skills even more powerful [well, on second thought, Nival would probably think this would be a brilliant solution to the problem] - but, as I see it, you will only emphasize it.
What we have now are really powerfull skills (Nature's Luck - wtf?) that require you to lock up your Hero skill choices completely, in a combination that will often not be favorable (i.e. Warlock) in order to obtain that ability that might turn the battle - if you survive long enough. Secondly, we have a "ultimate" skill level in the racial skill, which is only accessible with a random artifact (again, I must ask: Why?). To combine these two concepts to form an even more powerfull - and imballanced - skill to make it more attractive is to take the easy - and wrong - way around.
Rather, I think one should strive to find a system which is more versatile and puts less boundaries on your hero development, and therefore will be more attractive. That is better for gameplay, because a completely restricted development only is fun so many times before it starts getting repetitive - not to mention the fact that it will make it impossible for a skilled player to use his tactical experience and analyze the map for selecting the best skill and in the same time obtain the maximum potential. Of course, the prize to pay for choosing such a path will be to make the abilities less powerfull, because more accessible abilities will have to be less powerfull, but personally, I think that's only fine.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 06:49 PM |
|
|
|
If you ask me, you could drop the whole concept of the "Ultimate skill" as it just locks the choices. I'll rather see an intelligent and logiacal build-up of all the other abilites.
|
|
TemjinGold
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 10:31 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
The idea is neat. The Warlock one looks nice on paper until you remember what skills were needed to get the Ultimate in the first place. On the other hand, the Sylvan one is too strong. Every hit deals quad damage? I like the Mass effect for the Knight. They should've made Unstoppable Charge do that instead of 3X damage.
For the Warlock imagine this: You have an enemy creature with an air element. You cast Implosion on it at expert level with 30 spellpower (1240 damage). Now, it gets lucky (2480 damage). Elemental Chains work: if 50% more, that would be 3720 damage, if 200% more, it would be 7740. Not powerful enough for you?
For Sylvan, remember that it's only for the selected faction.
EDIT: For the Warlock, it's actually stronger:
By that level, you would probably cast Empowered Impolosion (Expert and 30 spellpower) which will deal 1860 damage. It gets lucky and the damage is now 3720. Elemental damage with 50% is 1860 and together it is 5580. With 200%, it is 11160  . BUT, to get the Divine Skill, you also get Rage of the Elements! That means double damage! so with 50% it is 7440 and with 200% it is 18600 (). I don't know about you, but 18k damage is VERY powerful. Perhaps too powerful...
You are missing the point. If you go for Rage of the Elements, you will have a hero that sucks UNTIL you get it (even then, he still sucks some). Sure the Implosion could conceivably do a boatload but do you realize you are unlikely to be able to cast more than a couple if that many? You won't have much mana and you won't have Intelligence even. You won't even have Sorcery to Arcane Train it lower. In fact, until you get that overpowered ability, your hero will be total crap. It is easy to say "it'll be so uber once I have it" but what do you actually plan to use to GET it? Your guy would be too crippled to level up to that point and your opponent will put you out of your misery long before you get close.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 10:45 PM |
|
|
Not to mention the fact that to get Dungeon's Ultimate, you Hero might even have a slot open for Destructive Magic, so you will do super much damage, but the only spells you can use are Lightning Bolt, Ice Bolt, Stone Spikes and Eldritch Arrow. Glah! 
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 11:39 PM |
|
|
As long as ill be doing 18k+ dmg i can cast even darts
____________
|
|
EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 11:56 PM |
|
|
|
You can always change the requirements
|
|
executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
|
|
posted April 03, 2007 12:25 AM |
|
Edited by executor at 00:27, 03 Apr 2007.
|
Well, sir Alc, I am against removing ultimates from the game. They're fun  (once you get them  ). They just need slight tuning, save for warlock's (major reconsideration of reqs, current set spoils EVERY warlock you can think of, even mighty one(which isn't even powerful); but no destr+luck+sorc+enl either, please) and knight's (it's simply USELESS, make it rather about morale or sth). Other are more or less ok as they are. And they are ok as rewards for price of binding your hero to an exact build.
I don't know, sir Alc, why are you, an epic-loving player, against ulti skills? 
And for reqs of ultis: I think each for faction the required set should be 3 favored skills + 1 non-favored. That would be ok. And leave the exact skill reqs. Ultimate goals should require serious sacrifices .
____________
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 03, 2007 12:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Ultimate goals should require serious sacrifices .
Well, in this last sentence, you actually exactly sums up what I have against this: Sacrifice is a no go in game development [and I'm not talking about the Sacrifice spell, which was very fine and sorely needed in the current game ]. Anyway, having to sacrifice to obtain something reduces fun, and thereby makes the feature less valuable for me, i.e. bad game development.
Of course, you cannot have the ideal skill selection (Luck + Destructive + Sorcery + Attack for instance) lead to the most powerfull ability (Elemental Rage). Therefore, for me the better compromise is scaling down the Ultimates.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Sanyu
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 03, 2007 12:14 PM |
|
|
I was thinking of another system to get ultimate skills. Perhaps they can change it to the way one attempts to do a research paper. For example, each faction will have to meet unique prerequisites before they are awarded the ultimate skill. The "magic" factions (Dungeon, Academy, Necropolis,), the "neutral" faction (Fortress) and the "might" factions (Inferno, Sylvan, Haven) are what makes the largest difference in the prerequisites. This, however, can be tilted to the opposing slant depending on the hero you are using (like Alastor[spell specialist] for inferno).
Prerequisites
Magic skills- Destructive, Dark, Summoning, Sorcery, light
Might skills-War Machs, Attack, Defense, Leadership
Neutral skills-Luck, Enlightenment, Logistics
Dungeon- "Magic" Oriented
at least 2 magic-related skills (like destructive and summoning, or sorcery and destructive......), all three "masters of" from destructive, mage guild at level 5, two abilities from racial skill. Can only take up one might-related skill and learn maximum 2 ability under it =>attack, defense, war machines, leadership Heroes with opposing slant (those that specialise in creatures)can take up to two might-related skill and master them fully.
Academy- "Magic" Oriented
at least 3 magic-related skills (like destructive and summoning and sorcery......), all racial abilities, mage guild level 5, knowledge and spellpower added together must be over heroes' level, at least advanced mastery for two spell skills. No might-related skills should be taken. Heroes with opposing slant (those that specialise in creatures)can take up to 1 might skill and master it fully.
Necropolis- "Magic" Oriented
Dark Magic at expert proficiency with three abilities, banshee howl + expert necromancy, mage guild at level 4, population of liches must be higher than twice heroes' level. Leadership and luck should not be taken. Can only take up one might skill with max two abilities. Heroes with opposing slant (those that specialise in creatures)can take up to 2 might skills and master them fully.
Fortress- "Neutral"
Defense of hero must be higher than attack of hero, Defense skill at expert proficiency + Defensive Formation, Luck skill at expert proficiency, shieldguards' population must be higher than 10 times heroes' level. All rune-related abilities must not be taken.
Inferno- "Might" Oriented
Hellwrath and Searing Fires, at least one ability linked to gating (swarming gate or gate master or swift gating), Attack skill at expert proficiency. Can only take up one magic skill with max 2 abilities. Enlightenment should not be taken. Heroes with opposing slant (any hero other than creature specialists, Alastor, Grok), can take up to 2 magic skills and master them fully.
Sylvan- "Might" Oriented
Luck skill at expert proficiency + Elven Luck, no taking of luck-reducing artifacts, at least two might related skills, rain of arrows and imbue arrow and imbue ballista must not be taken, logistics must not be taken. Only light magic can be taken under all magic skills and with max 2 abilities. Heroes with opposing slant (any hero other than creature specialists) can take other magic skills but [refer to criteria before].
Haven- "Might" Oriented
at least 3 might skills and all with three abilities each and at expert proficiency, hero's level above 20, leadership + divine guidance. Only light magic can be taken under all magic skills and with max 2 abilities. Heroes with opposing slant (any hero other than creature specialists) can take other magic skills but [refer to criteria before].
|
|
ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
|
|
posted April 03, 2007 01:37 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If you ask me, you could drop the whole concept of the "Ultimate skill" as it just locks the choices. I'll rather see an intelligent and logiacal build-up of all the other abilites.
Totally agree. These ultimates really destroys the game as it locks your choices, especially if you make them even more accesible without reducing their power
I just dislike having an ultra ability in a game, whatever the requirements for it are.
Abilities like Rage of the Elements are the nice ones for me (not too strong). That's how all of them should be and not extremely powerful. Of course, you'd also have to make them a little more accesible and not with stupid sacrifices (War Machines for Warlock, etc)
|
|
TemjinGold
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 03, 2007 04:55 PM |
|
|
|
At the very least, they should fix the Plague Tent. You know, at least make it work when you pick it (by letting you have Tent rather than Catapult and just chucking Tremors or something).
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 03, 2007 05:40 PM |
|
|
Well, plague tent works.
But it still is worthless.
|
| |
|
|
