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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Important Discussions
Thread: Heroes IV: Important Discussions This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 19, 2001 11:56 AM bonus applied.

Heroes IV: Important Discussions


Heroes IV, by the quality of the screenshots, promises to be really good. This appears to be the most advanced game of the Heroes series so far:

More creatures
More Heroes
More interactivity
More options
Better landscape
Advanced battling

.... and many other notable options.
But how much do we actually know about these topics? The creatures: We know each and every creature; but there is no depth to the matter. A Black Dragon stats page we know of so far

Black Dragon:

Level4
Asylum Castle
Breathes fire
Possibly 1100 HP.
Flies

Yes, these are all important facts, but i think we should have known a bit more by now. There are really only about 3 months before Heroes of Might and Magic IV is released in January. We also do not know what its specialties are, what its growth rate is, how its attacks will relate to other creatures AND heroes, what is its HP?
These are all significant facts, which are vital if we're to produce a better understanding of this topic of Heroes 4. That is what the Altar of Wishes is about. Heroes 4.

The Heroes status page:

Lets take Sandro

Necropolis(Not for sure but-where else)
Magic Hero
Partakes in combat
Needs no army

There have been many significant facts being left out from the known information of a typical hero. How many HP does it gain per level: This is an easy way of determining if a Hero is too Weak, as a part of Dajek's thread. When in battle, what moves will it perform, how much damage would it do? What are the differentials between the Wizards and the Warlocks, the Barbarians and the Sorcerer, how will this affect the amount of damage dealt in physical attacks and spells. What creatures will they have the hand with, what spell will they possess proficiency with; or have these two attributes of a hero been scrapped?
Heroes have now stepped up. They must be explained more fully and consicely. Not just: They can now fight in combat. It can explore by itself. These are important, but are useless if we do not know the finer details.

Castles:

Well, we know that there are 6 castles:

Asylum town
( similar to Dungeon, also mixed with Fortress, Stronghold and Inferno )
Magic - Chaos
Bonus - there is no post-battle bonuses but Asylum heroes have increased intelligence

Academy town ( similar to Tower also mixed with Rampart and Neutral)
Magic - Order
Bonus - Academy forces can charm enemies to lure them to fight on their side

Haven Town (similar to Castle )
Magic - Life
Bonus - it's Life magic lets it resurrect lost units after winning a battle.
Creatures

Preserve (similar to Rampart, also mixed with Fortress, Conflux and Stronghold)
Magic-Nature

Stronghold (similar to Stronghold, also mixed with the old Warlock castle)
Magic-No magic

Necropolis (Similar to Necropolis, also mixed with the old Warlock and Inferno)
Magic-Death

Yes, there are many new features in the casltes now, there are at least 2 more buildings- about 3 new, and they have not been discovered. We know about 1. The Prison. In the Asylum castle, it looks like this:
This prison is for keeping defeated or banished heroes. They can be bought again from the player who lost them. But from my understanding, the player must agree to a deal.

Although this building: (Notable for its appreance in 'Guessing Game II' By Preserver.
This is what it looks like in Asylum colours.


The use and the importance of the Grail in Heroes 4. Just how powerful will it be? Will the grail be used for enhanceing creature specialties, or merely for raising morale of troops, and adding a couple of extra points to the castles defences and offenses during a siege?
The grail has been a very important item. Nothing is known.

Artifacts!!
They have been pushed aside with the emergence of the grail, and many other new features attributed to Heroes of Might and Magic IV. How many will there be, more or less. How about if the artifacts helped the hero in a new way, by adding skills to creatures, or heroes in combat. Artifacts are vital for survival, and can mean the difference between loss and victory.

Secondary Skills & Primary

We know all the primary skills, and we now how many secondaries there are- 37. But the real question is: What are they? Have we seen the last of Eagle Eye, will Diplomacy become more important, what about mysticism? Not only are the names of the skills vital, but what they do aswell. Will logistics play a bigger role? Eagle Eye may be enhanced and become one of the best secondary skills around?
Hmmmmmm....

This thread is about having a discussion about all of those questions and curious topics, and doing our best to get information, and state opinions.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 19, 2001 12:35 PM

It does promise to be a good game from what we've seen but I'm in disagreement on many points..

- Monster balance (I just hope they know what they're doing. Black Dragons seem to be far better than the other L4 units)
- I don't like the idea of heroes fighting in combat (too used to the old system I guess) or having multiple heroes or no heroes.
- I prefer the old primary skills. That better distinguished a warlock from a barbarian.
- Fog of war in a turn based game.. ARGGHH keeping track of enemy heroes will be difficult (which means a longer game)
- The towns reflecting actual terrain (I like each town to have a unique feel, like in the previous HOMMs)
- Neutral stacks that attack.
- Attacks and retaliations happening at the same time (which means casualties are much more certain now, which means armies need to be replenished more often, which means a longer game)
- The dragon golem (need I say more?)
- Being able to build as many buildings per turn as you like (not a bad idea, but I get the feeling there will be a lot of abuse from this with amateur maps).
- Leadership skill doesn't give you an extra turn anymore, just lets you move earlier. Mostly useless.

There are probably more issues I'm concerned about, I'll add them later.
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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 19, 2001 05:11 PM

Quote:
We know all the primary skills, and we now how many secondaries there are- 37. But the real question is: What are they? Have we seen the last of Eagle Eye, will Diplomacy become more important, what about mysticism? Not only are the names of the skills vital, but what they do aswell. Will logistics play a bigger role? Eagle Eye may be enhanced and become one of the best secondary skills around?
Hmmmmmm....


Sorry to nitpick, but there are 27 secondary skills - 3 with each primary. 37 is the number of advanced hero classes. And Eagle Eye is indeed gone, as is Logistics (although its effect may be combined with Pathfinding). Mysticism is also gone, although it may be reincarnated in the various magic skills. Read Djive's "Primary Skill Analysis" threads for more info on the skills (each primary unlocks 3 secondary skills).
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted October 19, 2001 06:09 PM

I for one am very excited about what's coming up.  Being a fan of multi-player I stared in disbelief that we will no longer be restricted to building just one structure a day.  Gone are the days of spending 3-5 hours with your buddies just to get to week 3.  Yes there will be more casualties.  But, that will be offset by increased creature production, won't it?  Heroes fighting now?  Hmmm, I'd be willing to lose a couple of fights just to take out a BAD hero.  I've got a question though, will retreat or surrender be options in battle?  If so, I hope that 3do is revaming them.

_______________________________

"Beware, I live!!!!"
                       Sini-star
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 20, 2001 05:25 AM

Yes

I am quite certain that surrender will be an option, since the heroes will be kept in the prison when he gets defeated, or he surrenders.

StormWarning: Thanks for correcting me there. And how do you know that mysticism is gone? They did not say that anywhere, from what i've looked at.

Jenova: Yes, the Dragon Golems have not been likened to one of the favourite new creatures, but, what else could have gone in there.
But i like the idea of heroes fighting in combat.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2001 06:03 AM

Dragon Golem is the alternative to Black Dragon right? If that's the case, I would guess many players will favor the BDs over them anyway. There are plenty of replacements they could use for him, all they have to do is give them the same stats (and special ability) and the unit will be balanced.

The best news I've heard so far is that Mysticism and Eagle Eye are gone. Thank god. I hated getting stuck with those for my main hero. +3 spell points per day just sucks for expert Mysticism. +30 is how much I would settle for. Eagle Eye? Pah, learn a spell or two from an enemy hero which you will eventually learn anyway when you take his castle. What happened to that scholar ability (or whatever it was called) in H3 which allowed heroes to teach spells to one another? Is that making a return?
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The_Baal
The_Baal


Hired Hero
The God Of Fire
posted October 20, 2001 09:02 AM

Agreed

I agree that Eagle Eye and Mysticism are useless because they mostly don't affect the opponent.

The unknown buildings might serve a special purpose which will make the castles more difficult to complete. This adds to strategy.

But I do not agree that Dragon Golem is a replacment for the Blackie, but to work alongside it.  This gives dragon rivarly a touch more zing to it.
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The yellow eyes of Zealot.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 20, 2001 09:28 AM

Academy has Titan and Dragon Golem as their level 4s.
Asylum has Black Dragon and Hydra as their level 4s.

So they're not alternatives to each other.

For skills please also take into account that they might actually be modified to make them of more equal power. Hopefully, the designers of the game listens to criticsim at times. Right?

About Eagle Eye I believe it's gone or it will now be completely useless since Wisdom is now on Magic school level. If Eagle Eye removed the "Magic school requirement" when learning a spell through Eagle Eye observation it would actually be VERY useful. (And if you also let Heroes learn spells when creatures cast them, you would be even better off.)

About Mysticism: It's probably included in some of the secondary skills in one of the Magic schools. Difficult to know which one, though. Hopefully, the replacement (if it is there) will give you a sizeable percentage of your Mana back each turn.

Scholar is also stunted by the new school arrangement. I don't think it will be back. It may perhaps be included as part of the benefits you get when learning the Primary skills for the various magic schools, though we have not seen anything to indicate this in interviews.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2001 11:36 AM

Hmmm.....

Yes, if Eagle Eye got upgraded, it would be much more useful, as artifacts prove to play an important part in HoMM4.

Mysticism:
It may be included in necromancy, but i doubt it, if it has been merged.

Castles:
Those unknown buildings may prove to be very important, just as The_Baal said, but they could be useless, anything is possible.  

Dragon Golem: Yes, it is merely a competitor to the black dragon of the Asylum. Just like a Titan could be likened to a Hydra (Similar strength)
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2001 11:44 AM

Ahh my bad, Dragon Golem is alternative to the Titan not the BD. From my past experiences, I've always loved Titans, so the choice between Titan and DG is pretty easy for me. Titans are good range attackers (do they still have that broken arrow penalty from H3 when shooting from a distance?) and soak up a good bit of the CPU's attacks. I have no idea what the dragon golem does, but the guy operating it is a geek.
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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2001 11:56 AM

Quote:
Ahh my bad, Dragon Golem is alternative to the Titan not the BD. From my past experiences, I've always loved Titans, so the choice between Titan and DG is pretty easy for me. Titans are good range attackers (do they still have that broken arrow penalty from H3 when shooting from a distance?) and soak up a good bit of the CPU's attacks. I have no idea what the dragon golem does, but the guy operating it is a geek.


If they didn't have a broken arrow hinderance (1/2 damage) it would make them too strong, so it is pretty safe that it is still the same.

'The Geek' oprating it is the king of the land, and he is invincible. So there you go. Here is that grueome pic.

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Darion
Darion


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2001 07:57 PM

*shudder* I liked the old version better... this is no dragon golem, it's a frickin medieval AUTOMOBILE... I'm not gonna relive the Forge though, I just hope the Dragon Golem is really wimpy so no one uses it, and I will find a way to change the graphics But at any rate, I hope the Titans are beefed up (they were a little weak in Homm3) They are one of my favorites.
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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2001 12:07 AM

yeah

I have to say that the titan is mega cool in H4. Finally the titan looms over the battlefield. He will be powerful looking at his stats, but in H3 they were a little bit on the weak side as you said. They could only beat a few Lv 7 like Arch Devils, Ghost Dragons, and Hydras.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2001 05:01 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Ahh my bad, Dragon Golem is alternative to the Titan not the BD. From my past experiences, I've always loved Titans, so the choice between Titan and DG is pretty easy for me. Titans are good range attackers (do they still have that broken arrow penalty from H3 when shooting from a distance?) and soak up a good bit of the CPU's attacks. I have no idea what the dragon golem does, but the guy operating it is a geek.


If they didn't have a broken arrow hinderance (1/2 damage) it would make them too strong, so it is pretty safe that it is still the same.


Not really.. During the transition from H2 to H3 the Titan's damage was doubled to counteract the broken arrow penalty. They could just decreases his damage again a little and give him full damage. But even if they don't decrease his damage, it still doesn't hold a candle to the black dragon. In H2 and to a degree, H3, Titans and BDs were more or less a match for one another. Not so in H4 it seems. I have a feeling the Asylum will be a very popular town in this game..
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Darion
Darion


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2001 06:07 AM

Shame...shame shame shame. I hope 3do knows what they are doing, and know that just because something is much more expensive does not mean much in longer games when gold starts a flowin in hordes and you have more gold and resources you can shake a dead titan on a stick at.
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 21, 2001 06:23 AM

Thoughts....

LOL. Darion, and so do i, after all this promising news, i hope 3DO are doing their bests about the parts we don't know about.

Jenova: Yes, the Asylum is going to be and already is a very popular town. It combines some of H2 and H3's best creatures.

About Titans: Titans seem to have lost their 'god like' appearance in HoMM4. All they wear is a few plates, and a helmet. In HoMM3, they were fully suited up. They looked powerful. In HoMM4. Eh, well you could say they look like Giants more that Titans.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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Dajek
Dajek


Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
posted October 21, 2001 12:38 PM

That`s right Hydra. I even doubt if they have ability to shoot - no lighting bolt in their hand! But, well it`s possible that it will appear when titan attacks...

Well, `I have to say that I liked titan`s look in Homm 3, but I don`t like it at all in 4... He looks too human-like (although he Is much bigger...) and I don`t like his purple tunica or whatever it is around his hips...
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 22, 2001 06:49 AM

Yes, exactly my thought, Dajek. This is one of the creatures that they did an average job on. Yes, titans may not shoot. This wouldn't be very good at all. Or maybe they are called giants, not titans. ????
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 22, 2001 06:59 AM

yeah but

Titans look way better in H3 but without their lightning bolts, they could not be a titan anymore. I agree that you would have to name them giants but if they are weak as giants, then they could not be able to conquer other lv 4 creatures and they would be a lot like a lv 3.
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Mutant_Ninj0
Mutant_Ninj0

Tavern Dweller
posted October 22, 2001 07:20 AM

I wisj they make the angels has strong has they are in Heroes3

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